”genez said:
Just as I said, we both believe that. Where we differ is in how we are to let God have that control apart from our unwisely usurping him.
If the majority easily believed what I am saying of God to them, then, Revelation 11:18 and 16:12-21 would be wrong. And we know that can never happen. If the majority believed that they are to lay down their carnal weapons and forsake those carnal weapons, then, Revelation 11:18 and 16:12-21 would be wrong. And we know that can never happen. But it seems that many do not even believe that Revelation 11:18 and 16:12-21 will happen in the first place, else they would pay heed not to be party to man's destructive forces. Either that or they must believe that God will destroy the destructive military forces of man and yet save those who breathed life into those destructive military forces. Or perhaps they doubt that God can destroy sin and death so that they think God will always allow man to maintain order by military forces. When sin is defeated for all times the need of forced compliance by military forces shall no longer be. Until that time God merely tolerates your destructive military forces as a sort of necessary evil for the sake of maintaining a mere glimpse of order so that men can have at least enough freedom to search for God and his way. Those carnal military forces being approved of God to exist has only ever been temporary. It makes no sense that anyone should make the temporal a way of life. They will perish with the temporal that they not reinfect God's new order of things free of sin.
”genez said:
That is why He gave us the book of Numbers. Its a book that explains without a strong military there is no national freedom.
Where in the book of numbers do you read and interpret that from? Are you speaking what the book of Numbers actually speaks or our you asserting your own opinion of what it says?
It is helpful to first note that“Armies” or”Army” in the OT does not always mean “a military readied for carnal warfare”:
Numbers 33:1 “These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with
their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron.” (KJV)
Numbers 33:1 “These are journeys of the sons of Israel who have come out of the land of Egypt, by
their hosts, by the hand of Moses and Aaron..” (YLT)
The Hebrew “tsaba'” is often used only to denote being well organized in groups to be able and follow a leader in a well organized fashion for the purpose that none out of any of those groups might get lost. Carnal militias are organized to lose as few men as possible and in that way the groups of Israelite people fittingly compared to the organization of carnal militias without having to literally be carnal militias.
Due to their lack of faith on the whole as a people organized to God, Israel was punished by being made to wander in the wilderness: Numbers 32:13 “And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.”
Despite that the successive generations of children followed in the same path as those God destroyed in the wilderness: Ezekiel 2:3 “And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.” (KJV)
”genez said:
Book of Numbers was given to a people who had just witnessed to the parting of the Red Sea and watching Pharaoh's army destroyed. God determines if we need to fight or not. We do not get to pick and choose as some here think is the way. There is a time for peace. And, a time for war.
Are you claiming that God chooses when our nations war? Are you claiming that God supports wars over mineral and oil rights and over other selfish agendas which are often found to underlay the strife of nations today? If you blindly pledge your allegiance to your country and go blindly to war at your country's whim, how will you know whether God approves or disapproves of you and your battles? Will you just be gullible and suck down any facade of cause presented to you by your leaders who have proven countless times over to most often be motivated by commercial greed and desire for increased personal wealth?
Jesus told us that we cannot serve two masters, we cannot serve both mammon and God. Do you imagine that God will excuse you to serve a leader who serves mammon? If you have pledged your allegiance to God and then you pledge your allegiance to a country of men are you not already compromised? We have a choice to live for God or live for man. Living for man was brought about by sin. Even Atheists can live for a belief as to what is good for their fellow if that were the primary thing required. But no one can really live effectively for fellow unless they live first and foremost fully to God. And that at times means we will displease our fellow when God's way conflicts with his way. Yet the man who is over you in man's carnal military will court marshal you for standing strong for God when his way conflicts with God's. By spreading your affections too broadly you have created an impossible situation for yourself. Your affections should be reserved for God and those who like you love and honor God with all of their valuable things. In that way you will be as the salt of earth, seasoning all to God who are willing to take note to your example and acknowledge the superior way of peace it nets to you and yours. All your carnal military ways do is create outright enemies and false friends who only really play up to you to avoid your wrath. One never knows when such forced friends will betray you. That is not security. It is barbaric insanity.
”genez said:
One of the GREATEST fears a man can face in his lifetime is in battle in warfare.... Or, when facing violent criminality.
Who are you describing there? If that be true of men then it is because of they lack true faith: “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 13:5-6 “Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.”
”genez said:
One of the GREATEST ways for God to display His power of grace? Is in such a man. I am tired of these self centered cowards who distort God's Word as a means to justify their weakness.
It is good to be careful how we judge others. What reason have you to be tired of other men as though you be more perfect than they?
”genez said:
"And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for
My strength is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Cor 12:9
Cowards are Scriptural sneaks. They distort and twist Scripture in fear of coming out and facing the enemy. God gives us times of needing self defense as a means to see how we are accepting His grace, or rejecting it. A person who refuses to take up arms yet is willing to be a medic in time of battle I believe God honors, because he was willing to put his life on the line for the freedom of his nation. But? All medics are trained in the use of a firearm. For what happens if the enemy breaks into where he may be treating someone? ITS ALL IN GOD'S HANDS.
OK, that is how you interpret what Paul said. But do you really care to know what Paul meant? He surely did not mean leaving out as a body member of Christ to serve as a body part in an army of man having a different leader as its head. Or do you not know that an army operates like a body? To whom you pledge your allegiance you belong, either to Christ as a member of his body with him as your head or to your country of flesh with another sinful human as your head. It is a conflict of interests to pledge yourself two ways. Your person will be unable to be fully available to either party to make your pledges good.
There are various forms of pacifist groups each having slightly differing beliefs the same as with non-pacifist religious groups. Some pacifist groups would tell you that to assist in war in any way is like holding the rifle while others pull the trigger. Many pacifist groups would not even approve of being a medic in service to the military for that very reason. And they would just tell you that if you are going to have any sharing at all in the evil of war then you should expect that it might cause moments where you must betray your faithfulness to God or accept to die. Even as a medic, the man putting himself in that situation knows that is a possibility. No man that believes killing others is sin would let others train him to kill. Not even as a requirement to serve as a medic. He would simply choose to let the dead bury their dead and continue on following Jesus.
You have been warned from long ago: Genesis 9:6 “Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
It was not righteousness that laid waste to so much of the middle-east. Though some of those you have conquered may claim to be your friend to escape your wrath, they and their children will remember what you have done and inside themselves they will always hate you. When you speak to them of righteousness they will see you as hypocrites speaking war out of one side of your mouth and peace out of the other side of your mouth. That is the harsh reality and you know that you too would feel as they do if the situation were reversed.
You promote living by a heaven of iron (your ruling sectors) and you treat the earth as your brass rather than God's. The heaven of iron was God's curse to his unfaithful people and so you advocate living by a curse.
