CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

[mpshiel]

I wonder why it is that all other forms of hatred, like racism or homophobia find themselves reflected strongly in the actual targets of the hatred as well as those who instigate that hatred. Is there any evidence of internatized Christianphobia - Christians breaking down in the middle of threads on CF and confessing that they can't help being a Christians no matter how much they hate themselves?

I haven't seen it yet.

 

[raphael_aa]

I wonder why it is that all other forms of hatred, like racism or homophobia find themselves reflected strongly in the actual targets of the hatred as well as those who instigate that hatred. Is there any evidence of internatized Christianphobia - Christians breaking down in the middle of threads on CF and confessing that they can't help being a Christians no matter how much they hate themselves?

I haven't seen it yet.

I don't know. I've honestly had people tell me they wouldn't be a christian if there was no afterlife or hell to be afraid of. That's pretty close.

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,



I am basically in agreement with that post, However, the way we are to love our lives, a Holy people and set apart for the Kingdom, and not to be polluted by the world is supposed to set an example, Nevertheless many Christians seem unaware that many turned away from Jesus because what Jesus spoke about and asked of people was too costly. A phobia is a fear, and I don’t think most people fear Christians but perhaps are beginning to fear the message of Jesus because it puts God first and others second, its costly. So I suggest that if we as Christians must start to impact society more and more with the message and faith in action, but IMO Christianophobia will only decrease if we become more like the world we live in and less set apart for the Kingdom in how we live. The opposite of what you say.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

And one of those wicked issues is the issue we have been discussing (Gen 19, Rom 1, 1 Cor 5:13, Deut. 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7)

 

[ahab]

Hi Mpshiel,

What do you mean by hatred. When in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male nor female, master nor slave, its difficult to see where there is racism in the gospel. Some may not live up to this truth but the truth doesnt change. As to homophobia, what exactly is the fear? As there are many celibate homosexually orientated people and ex-homosexually orientated people in the church, one can hardly call Christians anti-homosexual can one?

 

[Mustaphile]

I wonder why it is that all other forms of hatred, like racism or homophobia find themselves reflected strongly in the actual targets of the hatred as well as those who instigate that hatred. Is there any evidence of internatized Christianphobia - Christians breaking down in the middle of threads on CF and confessing that they can't help being a Christians no matter how much they hate themselves?

I haven't seen it yet.

What measure we give out, the same measure is given back to us. Bigotry breeds bigotry. Violence breeds violence. Hate breeds hate. It's not that complex really. Who will break the cycle? What measure of good fruits do we bring this world? Are christians not the highest example to the world of what is good?

Apparently not in all cases. Which movements of christianity have the most negative attitudes directed towards them? Are they giving out the same message that is coming back at them? If so , there we have an answer to the problem. That movement of christianity is the one of those that is causing trouble. The onus is on all of us to keep a tight rein on our tongues. The spoken word is a powerful and creative force. What we place our faith in, and direct our speech toward, brings that thing into being. Christianity might do well to shut its mouth until such time as it can bridle it's tongue, and speak things into being that edify. Different denominations get a reputation after a while, and it take a lot of love to be given out, to allow those sins of the denomination to be forgiven.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,



What do you mean by the measure? Does Jesus not refer to the measure given as the word or the gospel He brings. How does this apply to us as Christians if we receive the word with joy and put it into practice in its entirety, or in short ‘to look after widows and orphans and to keep ourselves from being polluted by the world.”?
What do you mean by bigotry? How people handle the Word of God?
How does violence relate to Christianophobia, that some world leaders profess their different faiths and sanction wars? Who will break the what cycle? Who is the highest example to the world of what is good, Christians or Christ Jesus and the Christ Jesus in Christians? What do you mean about movements of Christianity?

Which have the most negative attitudes directed towards them?

That may be a sign of Christianity being effective, Jesus does warn of trials, where is Satan going to attack?

Are they giving out the same message that is coming back at them?

Are they putting God first and then their neighbour or are they putting themselves and their neighbour above God?

The onus is on all of us to keep a tight rein on our tongues.

True but the word is like a double edged sword and divides spirit and soul, it can have a powerful effect. We need to preach the whole gospel but we need to be sensitive to what Holy Spirit tells us. Our job as disciples is to make disciples by leading people to Jesus Christ, nothing can happen unless they make the same step as us and accept Jesus. We need disciples because Jesus warns us that we will face testing and hardships and trials and tribulations to various degrees so our faith needs to be strong. Jesus warns us that we will be insulted because of Him, not because of us but because of Him and the increase of wickedness. What is the wickedness? This “will result in your being witnesses to them.” Jesus says. I don’t think they objected to Jesus miracles or healings, they objected to what he said and claimed. I also think we will not be hated when we help our neighbour but perhaps when we speak the word of God.

 

[fejao]

Hi Fejao,



I am basically in agreement with that post, However, the way we are to love our lives, a Holy people and set apart for the Kingdom, and not to be polluted by the world is supposed to set an example, Nevertheless many Christians seem unaware that many turned away from Jesus because what Jesus spoke about and asked of people was too costly. A phobia is a fear, and I don’t think most people fear Christians but perhaps are beginning to fear the message of Jesus because it puts God first and others second, its costly. So I suggest that if we as Christians must start to impact society more and more with the message and faith in action, but IMO Christianophobia will only decrease if we become more like the world we live in and less set apart for the Kingdom in how we live. The opposite of what you say. And one of those wicked issues is the issue we have been discussing (Gen 19, Rom 1, 1 Cor 5:13, Deut. 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7)

Ahab I would just like to point out that I too agree that the more we are Christ like the more persecution Christians will face. Its not that I believe the opposite of you, its just a point I did not include in my post. Also as I said I am not going to discuss the issue of homosexuality with you, you will not entice me into another debate with you citing thoes bible verse.

Fejao x

 

[raphael_aa]

Sometimes we get persecuted because of our faith in Christ. Sometimes we get persecuted because we act like jerks. The trick is to know the difference. I can only list the characteristics that I see in some (too many) christians (including myself) that drown out the message of the gospel:

self righteous, patroning, elitist, arrogant, inflexible, intolerant, anti-intellectual, snobbish, holier-than-thou, prudish, disapproving, condemnatory, self-centred, willfully ignorant, unable or unwilling to listen to others, lacking in compassion, materialistic, selfish, insensitive and so on

Nobody on this forum of course, all those other christians letting down the side 'out there' somewhere.

 

[fejao]

Sometimes we get persecuted because of our faith in Christ. Sometimes we get persecuted because we act like jerks. The trick is to know the difference. I can only list the characteristics that I see in some (too many) christians (including myself) that drown out the message of the gospel:

self righteous, patroning, elitist, arrogant, inflexible, intolerant, anti-intellectual, snobbish, holier-than-thou, prudish, disapproving, condemnatory, self-centred, willfully ignorant, unable or unwilling to listen to others, lacking in compassion, materialistic, selfish, insensitive and so on

Nobody on this forum of course, all those other christians letting down the side 'out there' somewhere.

Its so true Raphael I think sometimes we are not humble enough to admit that its our fault that we are responsible, thats why 2 Chronicles starts with humbling ourselves I believe. If we dont start with being humble our pride grieves the Holy Spirit and our hearts never get to the place of repentance.


"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14"

I believe change always starts with us "the Christians", we need to present Jesus with mercy and truth.

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. - Proverbs 16:6"


Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,



Well we don’t need to be drawn on the issue, except anyone can easily say that hate wicked things if they themselves have defined what wicked is.

 

[ahab]

Hi Raphael_aa

self righteous, patroning, elitist, arrogant, inflexible, intolerant, anti-intellectual, snobbish, holier-than-thou, prudish, disapproving, condemnatory, self-centred, willfully ignorant, unable or unwilling to listen to others, lacking in compassion, materialistic, selfish, insensitive and so on

I agree, isn’t this what Paul says that nothing of us is good, what is good is Christ in us, and that we can boast in Him 1 Cor 1:31 (which is Jer. 9:24.)

 

[UberLutheran]

And I've wondered why so many Christians actually seem surprised when "those AWFUL homosexuals" have reacted disdainfully to Christians who make a point of telling gay people that "they chose their lifestyle", that "God hates them and they are going to Hell unless they change", who batter gays and lesbians with the same seven Scriptures over and over again while ignoring the fact that there are 66 books of Scripture which apply to them -- and then have the audacity to claim that what they are doing is "loving the sinner and hating the sin" when the reality is that they very much hate the sinner and are sparing no effort to let "those AWFUL" gays and lesbians know it.

Frankly, I wonder exactly who it is who really needs the "changing" and methinks it may not be "those AWFUL homosexuals".

Just reading through this thread, I observe that several Christians, particularly conservative Christians, quote the same seven Scriptures again and again -- out of context, of course, and certainly not using the original meanings of the words arsenokotoi and malakos. The fact that Paul used those words in reference to non-Jewish cultures who made use of cultic sex using male temple prostitutes in the belief that doing so would appease the pagan gods so there would be sufficient rain and the crops would grow -- but why should people pay attention to an explanation of the words within the context of the text, especially if it flies in the face of a 1,000 year old tradition of hating gays and lesbians simply because they're gay or lesbian?

And speaking as a liberal Christian -- I wish I had a nickel for every time I've been "witnessed to" by a conservative Christian who decided that my faith is invalid because people in the ELCA are not Biblical literalists (so we must be atheists); or that my baptism is invalid because Lutherans practice infant baptism (even though I was baptized by immersion in 34 degree water in a Southern Baptist church when I was 13); or that our services are invalid (and even Satanic -- I've heard that one!) because we drink actual wine during Communion and believe that the elements of bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ!

Never mind that Lutherans are practicing Christians -- I've been asked repeatedly if I'd like to attend a "real" Church (Lutheran churches are, in fact "real" churches); how I "know I'm saved" (my salvation was secured at about 3 pm on Good Friday in the year 30 C.E.); why I insist on "twisting Scripture instead of accepting the plain meaning of the word" (because all too often, the "plain meaning of the word" if frankly inaccurate and I care enough about the meaning of Scripture to go for as close to absolute accuracy as I possibly can).

I won't say that ALL conservative Christians do these kinds of things, because frankly, ALL of the don't. But -- a considerable number of them DO. We speak of "angry atheists" and "angry liberals" and "angry gays" -- and I have to wonder how much of this anger is in reaction to something derogatory which has been said and done to them. From my own experience as a liberal Christian -- it's a considerable amount.

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20041209-122008-5991r.htm

Have you seen really anti Christian behaviour. I have recently and didnt realise it was a new problem. Well new as in, the continuation of persecution. But as this is more than not interested, or not agreeing, or rejecting God. But actively squaring off with, baiting and trying to provoke Christians. Refering to them as stupid, bigots, mindless etc. I have felt the wrath of the gay community (I so do not want to debate gay issues). But this is a big deal and its getting worse. When some places refuse to let children say Merry Christmas to each other as school, promoting happy holidays instead - well its taking P.C. to the another level of extreme.

 

[fejao]

Thank you UberLutheran for your insightful post. I hope God is blessing your life in 2005!

Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi UberLutheran,

I am not surprised that homosexuals get offended when Christians tell people that God hates gay people, so that doesn’t surprise me.

that "they chose their lifestyle",

Well that’s true, we all chose our lifestyle dont we? I know I don’t chose my sexual desires though and I don’t expect homosexually orientated people do, would you agree?
As to the ‘seven same scriptures’, to my reckoning there are ten or more that are conclusive, and in the 66 books of the Bible no scriptures to support the same-sex sex and marriage that those ten define. So I don’t see your point.
IMO love the sinner and hate the sin is about as obvious from the scriptures and one can get isn’t it. Jesus and the NT scriptures talk a good deal warning us away from sin and also about forgiveness and mercy and not judging. I would have thought that the woman caught in adultery ‘neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more’ was about as clear as love the sinner and hate the sin as Jesus could make it. Adultery being the sin and the woman being the sinner.

those AWFUL" gays and lesbians know it.

However if you mean homosexual people then there are plenty of homosexuals in the church, but if you mean gay and lesbian is the active sexual lifestyle then yes the scripture does indeed warn very severely about people who do this. That’s the gospel and some are very angry about it. You see those talking about 'those awful homosexuals' are people like you.
As to the meaning of the Greek text 1 Cor 6:9, see my posts and take into account the whole debate like the conservatives do, instead of rejecting everything you dont like, or just accept that it is extremely unlikely that arsenokoite and malakoi in 1 Cor 6:9 is cultic sex using male temple prostitutes, but more likely though disputed, homosexual practice! Its been like that for 2000 years of analysis and still is for the majority of scholars. And it isn’t about hating gays but looking to reveal the Word of God, hating gays is your words, you are the one full of the word ‘hate’ and ‘gays’
Also I fail to see how the debate over this issue causes you to refer to people who you think belittle your faith.

 

[UberLutheran]

In practicality, there is no such thing as "loving the sinner and hating the sin."

"Loving the sinner" is NOT "making their life as difficult as humanly possible".

"Loving the sinner" is NOT using Scripture as a weapon on other people -- and destroying their faith, if necessary, to win an argument.

"Loving the sinner" is NOT using the courts and the legislatures to prevent "those AWFUL gays/lesbians/(or choose your other favorite "sinner")" from being fired, or losing their home or apartment, or being able to visit each other in the hospital, or being able declare each other the beneficiary of a will or insurance policy simply because of their sexual orientation.

"Loving the sinner" is NOT walking in to Metropolitan Community Churches on Sunday mornings during church services and disrupting a service by screaming "God hates homosexuals" and "Turn or burn!".

"Loving the sinner" is NOT feeling really good about ourselves because at least WE'RE not like those AWFUL gays/lesbians/(or choose your other favorite "sinner") -- because WE ARE like those awful [fill in the blank].

but if you mean gay and lesbian is the active sexual lifestyle then yes the scripture does indeed warn very severely about people who do this. [/ahab]

Not in the original Hebrew and Greek; and certainly not in the historical, social, religious and political context in which the passages were written.

As to the meaning of the Greek text 1 Cor 6:9, see my posts and take into account the whole debate like the conservatives do, instead of rejecting everything you dont like, or just accept that it is extremely unlikely that arsenokoite and malakoi in 1 Cor 6:9 is cultic sex using male temple prostitutes, but more likely though disputed, homosexual practice! Its been like that for 2000 years of analysis and still is for the majority of scholars.

Cultic sex by normally heterosexual males who are using male temple prostitutes (very young ones, at that!) IS a "homosexual practice" -- specifically, pederasty -- a practice which I might add is condemned by the straight and gay community alike!

1800 years of analysis and tradition also justified slavery -- a practice which continues to this very day (and those who continue to justify slavery also (mis)use the Scriptures to justify the practice).

There are ALWAYS new things to learn about Scripture -- and old beliefs to be discarded!

And it isn’t about hating gays but looking to reveal the Word of God, hating gays is your words, you are the one full of the word ‘hate’ and ‘gays’

Also I fail to see how the debate over this issue causes you to refer to people who you think belittle your faith.

A Visit Home​

(Scene: it is 9:30 on a Sunday morning. Several people, including UberLutheran, have gathered in the dining room of a large house. The people are dressed quite nicely: it's obvious that they are about to attend a church service.)

FAMILY OF ORIGIN: So, are you going to church, today?
UL: Yes: it's Sunday. I always go to church on Sunday.
FoO: No, I mean a real church.
UL: The church I attend IS a "real" church.
FoO: No, like the one WE attend. Where we say REAL prayers, not ones read out of a book.
UL: ANY prayer said sincerely is a "real" prayer.
FoO: But you all drink WINE where you go.
UL: And you all drink wine the other 167 hours of the week. Your point being?
FoO: Well, we're praying for your salvation.
UL: Well, thank you: but my salvation was secured at 3 o'clock in the afternoon on Good Friday in the year 30 C.E. Now, let's go to our respective churches, OK?

 

[Mustaphile]

Well that’s true, we all chose our lifestyle dont we?

Do we? I don't think we do. This is the luxury of some. The choice we have is to have our hope in the eternal or the temporal. I think this is about the only choice we have. This gives us a choice to how we react to circumstance which is determined by things outside of our control. The choices we make may be in error, but there is one choice that really matters. The choice to place our hope in God rather than the world. We all suffer torment, trial and testing, some more than others. All these torments and trials are out of our control. Through these trials, what matters is that our hope remains firmly focused on God and the eternal, the reason of our hope. We may fail at every obstacle, but if our hope remains unscathed, God welcomes us with open arms, because we have placed our hope in him.

Are you a hope killer, Ahab?

-edit-

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

Many say we are saved by faith, or saved by grace. What many don't see that it is all these things combined that save us.

Faith, hope and love, these three things are eternal. Faith in God, hope in God, and love from God (grace). It is the eternal that saves us, not the temporal. Sin is temporal and had ensnared us but has been defeated, by Christ, and so we place our hope in Christ. To know Christ is to know the Father. To know God's love for the world is to see Christ's reaction to the sins of the world. God did not judge or condemn, but forgave. This is his message of hope to those that believe.

 

[TScott]

Also I fail to see how the debate over this issue causes you to refer to people who you think belittle your faith.

I would think that failure is the problem, wouldn't you?
Hint: Has to do with judging...

 

[ahab]

Hi UberLutherian,

Firstly to continue debating the issue, as I have pointed out from what the Bibles says, crucially in 1 Cor 7:2 Paul considers porneia: "on account of porneia let each man have his own wife, and each woman have her own husband." So Paul benchmarks "sexual immorality" against marriage as in the concept of ‘para phusin’ ie. Gen 2
Matthew 5 (and 19), Jesus says "everyone dismissing the wife of him apart from a matter of (fornication) porneia makes her to commit adultery. " Thats what the Greek text says.

Secondly to address the love the sinner and hate the sin.
In practicality, there is no such thing as "loving the sinner and hating the sin."
Yes there is, its fundamental to understanding the love of God. Whilst we were still sinners Jesus died for us Rom 5:8, He bore our transgressions Isaiah etc etc. This is not just love its ‘agape’ and not whether we have any sentiment or emotion or affection.
Loving the sinner is not making their life as difficult as humanly possible.2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteouness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." My point is don’t ignore scripture that corrects and trains in righteouness or we go around ill-equipped.
And I dont know what you mean exactly by "those AWFUL gays/lesbians/(or choose your other favorite "sinner")" There is only one person here talking about hate and gays and thats you.

As to the relevenat scriptures again.. As Christians we know that marriage is not defined by culture but by God and I agree with AngelusSax that this key is ‘one flesh’ or what God has joined together. It isn’t a reference directly to sex, it is a reference to God’s reason in creation of man and woman
Malakoi is not the key but the key is found in 1 Cor 6, ‘one flesh’ as in Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 7, Eph 5.
For the record ..Malakoi is translated various ways as described soft, effeminate, soft, but its usage in contemporary literature from writers like Herodotus, Plato, Aristotle, and Plutarch, Josephus and Philo isn’t much help with the context. However in 1 Cor 6:9 it is in conjunction with arsenokoite which is a word Paul seems to have formatted himself, the possibility of passive and active sexual relationship and undoubtedly linguistically male is very possible. But, linguistically it is just as possible that arsenokoite is ‘men abusing themselves with men’ as in arsen koite from LEV 18 & 20 the Septuagint (LXX) Boswell’s arsen and aren analysis and his adjectival/objectival propositions are not considered by scholars any more conclusive, so the obvious etymological Lev 18 & 20 link is strengthened by 1 Tim where Paul uses the arsenokoite format with pornoi. (fornicators) leaving malakoi probably less certain that arsenokoites, especially as Paul is referring to the law.
One can hardly be surprised that the subject is addressed to the church in Corinth (and Rome, Rom 1) because sexual immorality and most notably pederasty was very common in Greek and quite common in Roman culture. Paul grew up as Saul in Tarsus with its GreekUniversity and understood Roman culture too as a Roman citizen, but he was formerly an expert Jew and he knew that Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. Paul is not going to be making cultural pronouncements based on Greek or Roman understanding but on Jewish.
However for the record there is evidence of a vice list throughout, based on pornoi or fornication and it is benchmarked as against one flesh and as in creation/nature ‘para phusin’ Strong's: 3844 + 5449 which is widely used as such by other Helenistic contemporaries (Robert M. Grant, John Knox and David F Wright.) One flesh Gen 2:24 as in Matt 19:5, Mark 10:8, 1 Cor 6:16, Eph 5:31. The underlying themes of 1 Cor 5-7, the first two terms of the vice list in 1 Cor 6:9, "fornicators" (pornoi) and "idolaters," are already announced In 5:1 as the issue of sexual immorality (porneia) covered in 1 Cor 5-7 and followed by idolatry 1 Cor 8-10. Also "sexual immorality" (porneia) in Gal 5:19; Col 3:5; 1 Thess 4:3, including incest and prostitution.
Crucially in 1 Cor 7:2 Paul considers porneia: "on account of porneia let each man have his own wife, and each woman have her own husband." So Paul benchmarks "sexual immorality" against marriage as in the concept of ‘para phusin’ ie. Gen 2
However, I see no scriptural support for the concept that marriage is ‘a heart attitude’ and certainly not ‘two people in love’. Love (agape) is certainly mentioned as what God requires from husband and wife ( 1 Cor 7) but it isn’t mentioned in scripture as the basis of the marriage. Many marriages at the time were arranged anyway or more precisely one could not only marry unless approved. And in the OT we see all kinds of stuff going on like polygamy and divorce.
Why condemnation for sex before marriage is mentioned I don’t know. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. But if anyone slips up and has the Spirit they feel terrible and guilty afterwards anyway, so all they need do is repent and overcome the next time.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? Amen

Are you a hope killer, Ahab?

No I dont think so, and are you?
What has the hope in Christ Jesus got to do with the thread Mustaphile?

 

[ahab]

What is revealing is that I notice Matt 25:31- can be discussed quite calmly even though it seems shocking to me that even some of those who call 'Lord Lord' are going to be goats and separated for eternal death, and yet as soon as we discuss what the scriptures say about same-sex sex its somehow hatred, bigotry and judgement...
It speaks volumes that some on a 'liberal' forum refuse to acknowledge or debate the consensus of opinon on same-sex sex and marriage and yet the debate on Matt 25:31- was quite open. It seems amazing that as Christians we have both celibate homosexuals and ex-homosexuals and yet we get this what about 'gays and lesbians' description to justify same-sex sex.
If we want to get off sin and onto hope of glory we have to take our eyes off the sin and stop demanding its acceptance, and focus on Jesus.
The hope of Glory we have is in Christ Jesus. How was Stephen full of the Holy Spirit of God and seeing God's glory when he was stoned? Its not the flsh but the Spirit. If we remain in Him and obey all He commands, He will be in us and our joy will be complete. John 15:11 As for me I have died to sin, I am a new creation, 2 Cor 5:17, I no longer look at porn and do adultery, it wasnt 'an entry criteria' it was the power of God and to God's glory. Wat otehr people do isnt my business unless other people are promoting their sins as something of God.