CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

[SuperMama]

Jesus didn't accept the things around him. And he didn't accept the status quo either. Love, peace and harmony - all very well and good. But we are required to discern, and choose to avoid sinfull situations and not associate with things that would corrupt us.

Jesus over turned tables and made sure that people knew when he was displeased. He scolded people and dispaired. Being Christian means standing up and saying "that is wrong and it goes against God" as well as promoting the mushy stuff.

Be a bit more balanced - if all your church leadership preaches is happy happy joy joy - They are not telling you the full deal.

 

[raphael_aa]

Jesus also ate and drank with the dregs of his society. He was a man of the people. The sinners seemed to like Him. It was only the religious who had trouble with Jesus.

There is a scriptural phrase I like 'speaking the truth in love'. To me it shows it must be possible to speak the truth WITHOUT love. Until I am sure, totally convinced, that there isn't a trace of ego or self righteousness, no matter how RIGHT I am, I had better keep quiet.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Being Christian means standing up and saying "that is wrong and it goes against God" as well as promoting the mushy stuff.

Be a bit more balanced - if all your church leadership preaches is happy happy joy joy - They are not telling you the full deal.

Thats RIGHT! You NEED your share of fire and brimstone! If you arent being threatened into being good with threat of eternal punishment, talk to your minister, THEY ARENT DOING IT RIGHT! If theyre telling you to be loving and accepting, DONT LISTEN!

Seriously though, Jesus kicked it with a prostitute, a tax collector, and gentiles. He was a VERY accepting man. Act as Jesus would have and be accepting.

 

[Tetzel]

Seriously though, Jesus kicked it with a prostitute, a tax collector, and gentiles. He was a VERY accepting man. Act as Jesus would have and be accepting.

I don't think that accepting is the proper term for Jesus' attitude. Accepting implies that he did not have a problem with immoral actions. Jesus did condemn adultery and prostitution, but that doesn't mean that those actions were unforgivable. As far as Tax-collectors and Gentiles goes though accepting is the proper term, as the only thing "wrong" with them at the time was being outcasts in their culture. But as far as actions go we must not forget that Jesus taught forgiveness and not acceptance.

See Matthew 18:15-22

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=31

That having been said, we must remember that many sins are not against us but against God and it is not our position to demand repentance and then offer absolution. That is God's province.

 

[SuperMama]

The tolerate everything, live and let live P.C, only extend love and good feelings isnt fine. Sure Jesus kicked it with a prostitute, (not quite how I would have termed it). But when He said "Go and Sin no more" Perhaps she should have ranted a little at him

"This is a victimless crime. I don't tell you how to live your life, Live and let live buddy. Anyhow prostitution is legal now a days, What about tolerence Jesus and I thought you just loved everyone, dont tell me what to do."

Jesus didn't not tolerate sin - period. He exposed it, stood against it and drew peoples attention to it.

I have never said walk about acting as though you are better than a prostitute, or homosexual, or gambling addict, or thief, or murderer, or adulterer........ - You can walk along side these people, and show them God's love, sure. But make sure you let them know there is a better way than the sin path they are on now.

Love the people - but not the sin. And dont lie about the fact that there is a consequence to sin. Dont cover it up, or be embarrassed about, run lines in black ink thru the Bible passages that dont suit you or seem too harsh.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

The tolerate everything, live and let live P.C, only extend love and good feelings isnt fine. Sure Jesus kicked it with a prostitute, (not quite how I would have termed it). But when He said "Go and Sin no more" Perhaps she should have ranted a little at him

"This is a victimless crime. I don't tell you how to live your life, Live and let live buddy. Anyhow prostitution is legal now a days, What about tolerence Jesus and I thought you just loved everyone, dont tell me what to do."

Jesus didn't not tolerate sin - period. He exposed it, stood against it and drew peoples attention to it.

I have never said walk about acting as though you are better than a prostitute, or homosexual, or gambling addict, or thief, or murderer, or adulterer........ - You can walk along side these people, and show them God's love, sure. But make sure you let them know there is a better way than the sin path they are on now.

Love the people - but not the sin. And dont lie about the fact that there is a consequence to sin. Dont cover it up, or be embarrassed about, run lines in black ink thru the Bible passages that dont suit you or seem too harsh.

Im sure Jesus didnt knock the lights out of people who sinned. Id be willing to bet he TALKED to them, reasoned with them, convinced them to give up "sin". Why? Because "comming forth with all God's love" is a little creepy. I mean, what if someone came up to you one day professing total love and devotion to you for the name of some particular God? That would really creep you out Im guessing. Jesus probably knew that, and Im sure he had people go "No thanks, Im happy the way I am". NOBODDY converts 100% of the people they preach to. I am a living testament to that.

 

[Tetzel]

Im sure Jesus didnt knock the lights out of people who sinned. Id be willing to bet he TALKED to them, reasoned with them, convinced them to give up "sin". Why? Because "comming forth with all God's love" is a little creepy. I mean, what if someone came up to you one day professing total love and devotion to you for the name of some particular God? That would really creep you out Im guessing. Jesus probably knew that, and Im sure he had people go "No thanks, Im happy the way I am". NOBODDY converts 100% of the people they preach to. I am a living testament to that.

You don't think Jesus was considered creepy in his time? A guy who rolls around with 12 friends who he frequently berates, a hooker, and his mom, goes around giving sermons publicly, healing the sick, raising the dead, flipping over tables in the temple, talking in a way to suggest he was planning to destroy the temple, refusing to speak in his own defence, and telling his followers to drink his blood and eat his body (BTW this was really offensive to the Jews considering their dietary laws), and claims to be the light of the world. Jesus was very odd!

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,

Ruth 1:16-17 and 2:10-11, 1 Samuel 18:1, 1 Samuel 18:2, 1 Samuel 18:3-4, 1 Samuel 18:20-21, 1 Samuel 20:41, 2 Samuel 1:26, Daniel 1:9.

I don’t see anything even sexual in the Ruth and Daniel passages, nor are they subject of much interest in the scholarly debate at large.
You will see that 1 Samuel 18 starts by stating that David and Jonathan were at one in Spirit. Spiritually Jesus loves us doesn’t He?
You are correct that all kinds of things went on in the OT, I don’t think you can apply one OT spiritual relationship to your idea.
On this forum I have already more than once given lists of reference links discussing Boswell, JJ MacNeil, Scroggs, Wright, Petersen, Duckworth etc. The whole debate.

Speaking out of silence,

Is not what I asked and neither is it what you asked. You asked for references. However, the bible does address a man/woman faithful union as God’s purpose in creation, no alternative is given except celibacy. Love (agape) is described as required in the marriage but thats not sexual, the sexual is the union ‘one flesh’ as defined more than once by Jesus and the NT writers. Scripturally ‘faithful loving same-sex union’ is a false concept.

The only real definition of marriage is in Genesis which is a descriptive account and not a prescriptive as some like to use it, however it is only implied, it is nowhere explicated.

It is repeated by Jesus Matt 19 and Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6. 'One flesh' Let no man separate what God has joined Jesus says. Jesus is referring to God’s reason in creation man and woman. Let lgcm not separate God’s reason.
You have to look to see what the Bible says. You cant dream up a concept like gay marriage and then see the scriptures doesnt mention it. They do however mention why there is no such thing.
The emperor Nero like other Romans had same-sex sex. The Romans were much more restricted in the practice but the Greeks often included it in their education. The Romans generally restricted it to slaves as the passive partner as the passive partner was despised. It is thought a Roman law was passed to restrict pederasty solely with slaves. Paul knew about Roman and Greek culture.

You refer to types of love agape, filea and eros, you imply I believe that these cannot be present between two people of the same sex in the sphere of marriage (filea/agape).

No. The NT writers’ use of the words is not entirely consistent in this way. What I meant was that Jesus doesn’t talk of a 'loving' faithful man/woman marriage.

Also may I add that quoting Lev, Romans etc in opposition of homosexuality and gay marriage in relation to this discussion is not helpful.

Well it is very helpful as it is precisely the condemnation that is written. Also 1 Cor 6 (and 5 & 7) and 1 Tim are probably septuagint Lev 18. Boswell’s work has been exposed as no more convincing on 1 Cor 6:9 than homosexual offenders, malakoi and arsenokoites as pederasty.
The scriptures are clear, there is a condemnation of same-sex sex in a variety of forms and outright Gen 19, Rom 1 state the act as perversion. Marriage is soley a faithful man/woman union as God's reason in creation and celibacy features as the only alternative.
There is no countennace for same-sex sex in any form.

 

[fejao]

Well Ahab you have the right to interpet the bible they way you want, however the scripture is not clear on the subject of homosexuality or gay marriage, if it was there would be no need to discuss it. However the Lord is after our heart, this is what should concern us! Love does not draw a line in the sand! Also just remember that our words are powerful, what we say can make people give up on love and hope, something which I dont want on my hands.

As far as our discussion, I do believe that both of us will never agree on this subject of homosexuality and the bible, despite what each of us posts here, this is just a fact of life and our individual beliefs. May God bless you brother!

Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi Antoninus Verus,

Seriously though, Jesus kicked it with a prostitute, a tax collector, and gentiles. He was a VERY accepting man. Act as Jesus would have and be accepting.

Seriously though Jesus didn’t accept the sin, only the sinner. The rich young ruler, the adulteress caught in adultery, the Pharisees etc. etc. Many turned away when they heard Jesus.

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,

Well Ahab you have the right to interpet the bible they way you want, however the scripture is not clear on the subject of homosexuality or gay marriage, if it was there would be no need to discuss it.

Firstly there isn’t any need, the scripture is clear on the subject of same-sex sex, it is condemned, its you who is not accepting that. Secondly, interpreting means taking the text and the translation text and deciding what it means in various contexts. Same-sex sex is described as wicked and perverted in Lev 18, Gen 19, Rom 1, 1 Cor and 1 Tim. Interpreting is not ignoring it or dismissing it in faour of something that isnt countenenced, which is what some like you are doing.

However the Lord is after our heart, this is what should concern us! Love does not draw a line in the sand!

Please remember that God is after all of us, not just our hearts, but all our strength, our minds and our bodies to be a Holy and living sacrifice, and to obedience as well. Our words are not as powerful as those given by Jesus which are the scriptures given. Hope is in eternal life in the Kingdom, joy peace and righteouness in the Holy Spirit, careful not to replace the hope of Glory with sexual satisfaction or you may be destroying lives as the scriptures warn concerning sexual immorality.

As far as our discussion, I do believe that both of us will never agree on this subject of homosexuality and the bible, despite what each of us posts here, this is just a fact of life and our individual beliefs. May God bless you brother!

Not true, I believe we agree on more than you think. Firstly the Bible doesn’t mention heterosexuals or homosexuals but is concerned with sexual practice, challenging heterosexually and homosexually orientated people alike. Secondly there are many celibate heterosexuals and homosexuals in the church, and there are plenty of ex-homosexuals (even as we know from this forum, Praise God) and God wishes all to come to Him through Jesus; the truth however remains that same-sex sex is not God’s purpose for His people.

God bless you too Fejao.

 

[fejao]

Hi Ahab I am sure there is much we agree on! Thank you for your oppinion again brother, it was again nice discussing things with you. God Bless.


Fejao x

 

[ErnestoChe]

Tell ya what, Christians spend more time persecuting and hating on people instead of "loving" everyone, to cry "Christianophobia" is pretty ridiculous, I cant believe you feel that you are "persecuted" Christians unfortunately run this ****ing country and it gets under my skin like noone else

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,

Yes we do agree on much

However on this issue I think you have decided to accept what you have heard and you want to hear, and are making references to a few of the bits in the debate without even opening your heart to the whole debate.
Here are some links of the debate for and against if they help
Boswell scholar J. Boswell Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality [University of Chicago, 1980]

J.J. McNeil, The Church and the Homosexual [Sheed, Andrews & McMeel, 1976].

J. Robert Wright, "A Case Undemonstrated," Anglican Theological Review 66 (1984)

David F. Wright, "Homosexuals or Prostitutes? The Meaning of ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10)," Vigiliae Christianae 38 (1984)

Richard B. Hays, "Relations Natural and Unnatural: A Response to John Boswell's Exegesis of Romans 1," Journal of Religious Ethics 14 (1986)

David F. Wright, "Early Christian Attitudes To Homosexuality," Studia Patristica 18.2 (1989)

Lynne C. Boughton, "Biblical Texts and Homosexuality: A Response to John Boswell." Irish Theological Quarterly 58.2 (1992)

David F. Malick, "The Condemnation of Homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27 " and "The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Cor.6:9," Bibliotheca Sacra 151 (1993)

Marion Soards, Scripture and Homosexuality: Biblical Authority and the Church Today (Louisville: W/JK, 1994);

J. Glen Taylor, "The Bible and Homosexuality," Themelios 21 (Oct. 1995)

Gerald D. Coleman, Homosexuality: Catholic Teaching and Pastoral Practice (New York/Mahwah: Paulist, 1995)

Thomas E. Schmidt, Straight and Narrow: Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1995);

Stanley Grenz, Welcoming But Not Affirming (Louisville: W/JK, 1998);
Walter Wink, Homosexuality and the Bible
Robert Gagnon,, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2001)

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,



As to your earlier post #10 what you actually refer to is taken by some Christians as possible anti-Christian sentiment. You refer to lgbt Christians and groups, but may I remind you that there are many celibate homosexual and ex-homosexual Christians in the church. You aren’t representing Christians fairly. As Paul writes in Col 3 and Gal 3 that we are all one in Christ Jesus, male and female, Greek, Jew, circumcised, uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free. So what do you mean by gay Christians, don’t you mean Christians. Note that Paul mentions male and female and sexual immorality in these passages, he doesn’t mention sexual preference or sexual orientation.

May I add that one of the foremost gay youth group in the UK actually employed a gay christian so that they could reach and minister to gay Christian youth.

Christian youth ministries reach out to all youth. Are you describing some gay youth world takeover or something? Do you park your car in Gay and Lesbian only parking slots?

What I do see is a lot of misinformation and lies being spead by the church and blatant anti-homosexual retoric.

Equally there are many who see groups like inclusivechurch and LGCM as spreading lies.

They say that they "love the sinner but hate the sin". First of all, it is usually reserved for the "worst" sinners (i.e. serial killers and homos).

Who is they, you are the one who has suggested it. I find that a most ridiculous statement because we can read about the sins Jesus hates in Matt 15, Mark 7 and Col 3 as above for example, and we know that Jesus forgives all who repent. Also who exactly is describing ‘worst sins’?

Nobody uses it for people who commit minor infractions like pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed or laziness.

How bizarre, I am not aware there are groups promoting these things, except gay pride perhaps.

It always reminds me of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee is lauding his many virtues, thanking God that he is not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers, etc... The other problem with this attitude is that the people on the receiving end of this "love" seldom perceive any love at all. What seems to happen more often than not is that this kind of love is always colored by disgust over the person's actions and reads as something entirely different from love.

Well to use your point, it depends how one interprets this passage. I interpret this as it says that it is addressed to those who are confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else. Who are you proposing in a debate about what is right according to Jesus is looking down on the other, I cant see how either of us are looking down on the other? I also think the passage shows the tax collector repents of what he recognizes as sin and the Pharisees doesn’t recognize he is a sinner and doesn’t repent. I do agree that this also shows a lack of judgement of the person and a lack of love. So how do you interpret this passage if different form me then?

Francis Schaeffer said that because man is man, he is to be loved at all costs. This is the core message of Jesus' teaching -- loving our neighbor.

Rather, IMO the core of Jesus message is to love God first and then our neighbour. As John says “God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.” God is love rather than love is God, and God so loved the world that He sent Jesus. I don’t see how what we do stops us loving each other, rather what we do stops us loving God?

Jesus was the perfect example of loving people without conditions.

Are you serious? Matt 25:31-, Matt 23:33, 5, 13, 18, John 8 etc etc.

He was concerned with making sure people understood that while he loved them as a person, he absolutely abhorred their wicked, depraved lifestyles.

Which is the difference between the sinner and the sin isn’t it?
God bless

 

[raphael_aa]

I enjoyed this thread when it wasn't about homosexuality.

 

[ahab]

The OP specifically asked it not to be about homosexuality, (my fault as much as anyone) sadly the cry of homophobic is one of those reasons to support anti-Christian hatred, probably as much as anything else, though possibly as much from within the church as outside.

 

[fejao]

Hi Fejao,

Yes we do agree on much

However on this issue I think you have decided to accept what you have heard and you want to hear, and are making references to a few of the bits in the debate without even opening your heart to the whole debate.
Here are some links of the debate for and against if they help
Boswell scholar J. Boswell Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality [University of Chicago, 1980]

J.J. McNeil, The Church and the Homosexual [Sheed, Andrews & McMeel, 1976].

J. Robert Wright, "A Case Undemonstrated," Anglican Theological Review 66 (1984)

David F. Wright, "Homosexuals or Prostitutes? The Meaning of ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10)," Vigiliae Christianae 38 (1984)

Richard B. Hays, "Relations Natural and Unnatural: A Response to John Boswell's Exegesis of Romans 1," Journal of Religious Ethics 14 (1986)

David F. Wright, "Early Christian Attitudes To Homosexuality," Studia Patristica 18.2 (1989)

Lynne C. Boughton, "Biblical Texts and Homosexuality: A Response to John Boswell." Irish Theological Quarterly 58.2 (1992)

David F. Malick, "The Condemnation of Homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27 " and "The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Cor.6:9," Bibliotheca Sacra 151 (1993)

Marion Soards, Scripture and Homosexuality: Biblical Authority and the Church Today (Louisville: W/JK, 1994);

J. Glen Taylor, "The Bible and Homosexuality," Themelios 21 (Oct. 1995)

Gerald D. Coleman, Homosexuality: Catholic Teaching and Pastoral Practice (New York/Mahwah: Paulist, 1995)

Thomas E. Schmidt, Straight and Narrow: Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1995);

Stanley Grenz, Welcoming But Not Affirming (Louisville: W/JK, 1998);
Walter Wink, Homosexuality and the Bible
Robert Gagnon,, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2001)

Thank you Ahab for the time you took to put together the following list of references, I have in fact studied both sides of the debate very extensivly and you assume much about my dealings and heart in regards to this issue, please do not you dont know my thoughts and heart, you see very little of me through this forum. Also I do not have time to always respond as indepth as I would like, such is life unfortunatly. God Bless

Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,



I have listed these references because I felt you were unable to state anything about the ‘other side’ of the debate.

Furthermore my comments about your post #10 have not been addressed as I believe your post is unrepresentative of Christians who are homosexually orientated and frankly anti-Christian.

Also you originally asked for scripture to support Supermamas comment “God stands against abortion, gay marriage and the other so called victimless crimes.”

With

I ask that you state your case, you cant just make statements like this without backing it up from the bible, some Greek and Hebrew exgesis would be nice.

And yet you claim ‘the bible does not address loving faithful same-sex marriage’ and yet I say it does.

Marriage = man and woman as God’s reason in creation Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5

Faithful = man and woman as God’s reason in creation Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, heb 13

Same-sex sex = condemned Gen 19, Lev 18,&20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim, Rom 1.



Your scriptures 1 Samuel, Ruth and Daniel certainly don’t support a faithful relationship let alone a sexual one.



So I don’t so much assume “your heart, thoughts and dealings” on the issue as tackle your statements on this issue which my friend seem tom me false and arrogant.

Blessings to you

 

[ahab]

As to the OP, one can’t avoid the fact that one big issue is the gay debate. This is even supported by subsequent posts.

The gay community has such an aversion to Christians and the church, not because of Christ but because of the horrible picture Christians paint of Christ to them.

And yet there are celibate homosexual Christians and ex-homosexual Christians so we have a post to support the idea that the gay community is anti-Christian. So this thread is not really about homosexuality but about how the gay community is anti.

Also I dont think the allegations

However because we constantly tell gay people that they will never make the mark, that they are not worthy, that our Jesus cannot accept them until they are "like us", we sell them a lie.

is entirely what those Christians who believe same-sex sex is a sin are telling the gay community. I believe most Christians are trying to tell the gay community that Jesus does loves them as much as anyone. I think the lie comes as this post extract shows from those who promote the same-sex sex as acceptable to God.