CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

I'm asking you to show some love in an area in which we don't have agreement over what is right or wrong.

But in debating the right and wrong why do you assume one person is not showing love? Love to who first, God or the neighbour?

Furthermore the scriptures need to be translated and interpreted according to the writer the context, the culture and above all whatever spiritual revelation. This is what we consider reason, Reason is not for us to discard and adapt. Paul and the other NT writers make it clear that that is another gospel and not the faith in Jesus Christ as revealed to us first through them.

You say the ‘law is written on our hearts’ but that scripture that says that also refers to what the law was and is in Christ Jesus and it is not reason to agree the law is written on our hearts and ignore what that law says and how Jesus has fulfilled it. You talk about the law and love and all this but when we discuss those scriptures you either ignore them or have a completely different idea what they mean.

Whilst I have been commenting on the scriptures you put forward you dont seem to be addressing mine!?........

I personally do not consider homosexuality a sin.

Neither do I and I have said so, the scriptures don’t talk about ‘homosexuality’ or ‘heterosexuality’ Why do you keep saying this?

I think that caution should be applied to any situation involving our sexuality, whether we be heterosexual or homosexual.

I think caution should be applied to all things we say and do. We need to test everything by the Holy Spirit and the word.

I do not condemn them for something that they can't change about themselves.

Firstly, how can we be condemned if we are in Christ Jesus? I am still required by Jesus to love (agape) a thief even if that thief has stolen from me and I dont love (philedelphia) him, I still love (agape) him. I can still love (agape) a homosexually orientated person, even a celibate or ex-homosexual I dont much love (philedelphia). God is love and we cant always feel that love, but it has been given on the cross. God is love (agape).
Secondly we can be changed if we are willing and by the power of God!. Do you not believe this? Remember there are ex-homosexuals who can testify to this.! Also there are celibate homosexuals who struggle but overcome! As sexaul temptations are so strong these celibate homosexual Christians have mighty testimonies for us heterosexuals when we get tempted by lust, porn and adultery etc!
Just how disbelieving and unrepresentative of the power of God are you? let alone unrepresentative of Christian homosexuals.

I know what is right for myself and that is to make peace with, and love those who seek Christ, and are homosexual.

Me too, have I explained it above satisfactorily? If not have you got any questions about what I have said?
The love of God is whether by God’s power and the help of the Holy Spirit we ourselves and pur neighbours can be set free in the truth that is Christ Jesus, without the truth and power being watered down by disbelief and falsehood.


The peace of the lord be also with you Mustaphile my friend, joy peace and righteouness in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mustaphile]

Ahab, I understand where you are coming from and I commend you on the stance you take, which is a lot better than the stance taken by many other christians. Where I still have disagreement with you is that you only give the option of celibacy. Paul would have called us all to celibacy, but he realised that not all would be able to heed that call and so he conceded that some should marry. Why do you not give the same allowance to those who do cannot heed the call of celibacy and are homosexual? I feel that what your doctrine has crafted is a convenient way to walk around the issue and not face it head on. It does address issues of pastoral care, in which the homosexual is welcome, but it doesn't address the need for some homosexuals for companionship and sexual expression.

 

[SallyNow]

My two cents:

There is, in North America, sometimes rulings which unfairly discriminate against Christians. For instance, in some school, Islam is explored, but Christmas and Easter are not allowed; or, Merry Christmas is not allowed to be said-and must be replaced with "Happy Holidays"-yet "Happy Hanukkah" is allowed. (I personally see no reason Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas can not both be used... I say "Merry Christmas" to my friends who celibrate Christmas, and "Happy Holidays" to those who don't) Either expression of all religions should be banned, or none...and since banning the expression of all religions would be trampling on freedoms left, right, and centre...

But still, let us be real about this...the majority of people in North America are Christians, so self-control is needed to not totally trample on the minority's ability to express themselves.

And yet, there are nations where Christianphobia does not just mean changing some phrases to include everyone in winter cheer...instead, it means persecution, jail, torture, and/or death. Although the North American trend needs to be stopped before it turns into "Happy Everything But That Word Ending In Tmas", there is real, physical danger that must be dealt with.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,



That we can debate is to both our credit perhaps, however the stark truth is that the scripture does have severe warnings for all kinds of things and when the warnings against same-sex sex are simply posted in response to someone promoting it and it causes accusations of hate and bigotry thats not helpful either.

Where I still have disagreement with you is that you only give the option of celibacy.

I see Jesus gives this in Matt 19. Both Paul and Jesus mention those that chose celibacy for the Kingdom Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7. What I dotn see from you is any options in scripture for same-sex sex.

Paul would have called us all to celibacy, but he realised that not all would be able to heed that call and so he conceded that some should marry. Why do you not give the same allowance to those who do cannot heed the call of celibacy and are homosexual?

Because Paul received his revealtion directly from Jesus, mine came from the Holy Spirit and this word that Paul speaks and from Jesus, why do you go on your feelings as opposed to what is revelaed through Jesus? Also Paul warns that those who promote same-sex sex will not inherit the Kingdom Rom 1, 1 Cor 6, Tim. What are you doing asking me about Paul and celibacy when you dont agree with waht he said about same-sex sex. How can you ask such a question? Are we not following Jesus? What about those heterosexuals who are unable to get married because they can find someone who wants to marry them? How can they be subject to celibacy and what would you do to enble them to be married?

I feel that what your doctrine has crafted is a convenient way to walk around the issue and not face it head on.

I see that your doctrine on this issue isn’t based on the truth in Jesus as revealed through the scriptures and the NT disciples and apostles, but on your feelings.

It does address issues of pastoral care, in which the homosexual is welcome, but it doesn't address the need for some homosexuals for companionship and sexual expression.

Sorry? If you are talking about Christians there are already celibate homosexuals and ex-homosexuals welcome in the church as recognised by me as brothers and sisters in Christ, what concerns me is you don’t seem to acknowledge them. If you are talking about non-Christians then we are still called to love them. It all depends where are joy is found, in Jesus or in sex.

 

[Mustaphile]

I see Jesus gives this in Matt 19. Both Paul and Jesus mention those that chose celibacy for the Kingdom Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7. What I dotn see from you is any options in scripture for same-sex sex.

What I ask for is for some balance between faith and reason. We have advanced a long way in many matters about in our understandings of human nature and the world around us, through science. The accumulated knowledge helps us to have a growing clarity about how to interpret our faith. Just as evolution helped in the debunking of literal creation beliefs, so the role of human phsycology and genetics can help us to debunk the misplaced conceptions about homosexuality. This is not a threat to scripture or our faith, but a tool we use to come to better understandings. I see a nice balance between those like yourself who swing more towards the faith side of things, but i also see great worth in those who like to bring more reason to their faith. This reason brings greater clarity, and there is certainly much room for clarification in the matter of christianities treatment of homosexuality. You drew attention to Jesus's statements on celibacy. He did say that some would not be able to take it. I simply point to a deficiency in you doctrine in this regard and in the absence of good guidance from scripture we might look to our accumulated knowledge in science to help us to clarify this point. Is there something threatening about science to your faith?

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

What I ask for is for some balance between faith and reason.

And you got it. You referred to scriptures and so did I but you haven’t commented on them or most of my points in the last post.



Well if you want to talk about science then maybe another forum area. This however is liberal theology and its no good quoting me scriptures and then talking about science justifying things. God isn’t know through science.

Different gospel.

Is there something threatening about science to your faith?

No. Is there something about same-sex sex threatening your faith?

You drew attention to Jesus's statements on celibacy. He did say that some would not be able to take it. I simply point to a deficiency in you doctrine in this regard and in the absence of good guidance from scripture we might look to our accumulated knowledge in science to help us to clarify this point.

What absence?

 

[Mustaphile]

With references to scripture it seems fairly pointless to comment on them, because scriptural interpretations have been pointed out to you already but you reject them anyway. UberLutheran elaborated in a number of posts on scripture.

No. Is there something about same-sex sex threatening your faith?

No.

We simply have different opinions on the matter. I'll leave it at that, I think, and I certainly don't see either of us changing or mind on the matter. It's all in God's hands and I have faith in God to reconcile all mankind to himself.

 

[Rae]

Hm. I don't see hatred of Christians in the United States. I see disdain for people who behave like jerks, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. For example, I don't see many people out there hating Tony Campolo, but I see a lot of people hating jerks like Fred Phelps.

Maybe if Christians paid attention to how they said things and how people react to what other Christians say, this problem would disappear. I think so, anyway. "I think, based on my view of the Bible, that non-Christian religions are not of God" will get you a lot farther than "You're all going to hell, demonspawn atheists/Pagans/Muslims/Shriners!"

Just FYI. Back when I was a Christian, there was a very popular Steve Camp song, "Don't Tell Them Jesus Loves Them." Anyone out there still listen to it? It's a powerful take on how you should show yourself to non-Christians.

Sometimes, folks...more times than you'd like, probably...it IS the Christian's fault that s/he is experiencing "hatred."

 

[fejao]

Look like all you people have been having some good converations here ! Well I hope has blessed you life today, I know he has mine



Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

With references to scripture it seems fairly pointless to comment on them.

Why?

UberLutheran elaborated in a number of posts on scripture

.

Ands we debated them.

We simply have different opinions on the matter.

Yes but I try and make mine subject to Jesus.

It's all in God's hands and I have faith in God to reconcile all mankind to himself.

Except that He has done hasn’t He? God so loved the world that He gave His Son. We have been crucified with Christ and raised with Him, Paul says. We are being built in a Holy and spiritual temple. Jesus has shown us the way hasn’t He?

 

[Mustaphile]

Anyone for Ice-cream?

 

[Fire]

We have been crucified with Christ and raised with Him, Paul says.

Can you tell me what "crucified with Christ" means?

 

[ahab]

Hi Fire,

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, [ Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:1
[ Faith or Observance of the Law ] You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
Galatians 5:24
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which [ Or whom] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

We are bought at a price. Eph please also note.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

Except that He has done hasn’t He? God so loved the world that He gave His Son. We have been crucified with Christ and raised with Him, Paul says. We are being built in a Holy and spiritual temple. Jesus has shown us the way hasn’t He?
Yes?

 

[Fire]

Galatians 5:24
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Delight thyself also in YHWH; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Psalms 37:4

How do you reconcile these two scriptures?

 

[ahab]

Hi Fire,

Yes but in the Lord submitted and devoted to Him. As David says Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are [ Or My sacrifice, O God, is ] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Someone who loves God first will find the things of God a delight. We delight in Jesus , we give Him the praose and the glory.
Someone who isn't intrested in God isnt going to blessed with the desires of their heart from God.

 

[tulc]

How do you reconcile these two scriptures?

How are they different?
tulc(truthfully, I can't see where they conflict)

 

[Maize]

I have felt the wrath of the gay community

Perhaps this is justified or at least understandable given what some Christians do to the gay community, (think Fred Phelps). Some gays believe Christians hate them and that some even want them dead, (it's happened). I can understand the feelings of the gay community if someone were to try to do that to me. I would think that of all communities in the world, Christians would understand this and rise above it, but sadly most of the time they do not and end up taking the low road. The persecuted becomes the persecutor.

 

[AMaximus]

I think this whole issue for revolves around one concept: the gay community seeks to legitimize and mainstream their lifestyle on the rest of folks that want nothing to do with it; at least thats the case for me. I believe homosexuality is wrong...others don't...a small percentage of us will change our minds unless God intervenes. Since I believe it is a sin, I have to realize the position God has me in perspective to this situation...I cannot judge people...that is not up to me...but it is up to God. My point...what you do behind close doors sexually is none of my business; God will deal with all of us regarding all our sins (and I'm a regular sinner just like anyone else) at a time of His choosing. Sin is sin is sin.
But...don't keep on trying to legitimize this lifestyle to people who will not accept it. Thats where it erks me the most...I'm heterosexual...I seek to continue to be a heterosexual, and live in a heterosexual environment...stop trying to change everyones mind about something people will not change their minds about. Just because I disagree with your lifestyle and don't want to be bombarded with the arguments its moral "acceptance" does not mean that I HATE those people. The same reasoning applies to people who are drug users or alcoholics....Just because I disagree with a druggies lifestyle and don't want to be bombarded with the arguments its moral "acceptance" does not mean that I HATE all drug users.
JMHO.

 

[Fire]

We have been crucified with Christ and raised with Him, Paul says.



Galatians 5:24
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Delight thyself also in YHWH; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Psalms 37:4

How do you reconcile these two scriptures?

Yes but in the Lord submitted and devoted to Him. As David says Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are [ Or My sacrifice, O God, is ] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Context here is important.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psalm 51:16

How are they different?
tulc(truthfully, I can't see where they conflict)

It depends on how one interprets Galatians 5:25. If you interpret it as meaning the crucifixion of the passions and desires which are sinful in nature, then I do not see a conflict.

Two examples of a sinful passion or desire are the desire to commit idolatory, and the desire to commit adultery.

However, the meaning of sin depends on who you listen to.
While Paul condemns sexual immorality, to the best of my knowledge he does not condemn idolatory.