CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

[fejao]

Hi Fejao,



I have listed these references because I felt you were unable to state anything about the ‘other side’ of the debate.

Furthermore my comments about your post #10 have not been addressed as I believe your post is unrepresentative of Christians who are homosexually orientated and frankly anti-Christian.

Also you originally asked for scripture to support Supermamas comment “God stands against abortion, gay marriage and the other so called victimless crimes.”

With And yet you claim ‘the bible does not address loving faithful same-sex marriage’ and yet I say it does.

Marriage = man and woman as God’s reason in creation Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5

Faithful = man and woman as God’s reason in creation Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, heb 13

Same-sex sex = condemned Gen 19, Lev 18,&20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim, Rom 1.



Your scriptures 1 Samuel, Ruth and Daniel certainly don’t support a faithful relationship let alone a sexual one.



So I don’t so much assume “your heart, thoughts and dealings” on the issue as tackle your statements on this issue which my friend seem tom me false and arrogant.

Blessings to you

Blessed Assurance​

​

Romans 8:35-39​

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.



​

I dont think your comments highlight above are unhelful. I do believe that this discussion is not fruitful but is knee-jerk in responce. I think we should keep in mind Titus 3. May God bless you brother.


Fejao x

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao



I see you feel that my posts are as unhelpful as I feel yours are.

Thank you for Romans 8, but perhaps an attempt to gloss over the issue with ‘love’ when it is you who has been claiming “

What I do see is a lot of misinformation and lies being spead by the church and blatant anti-homosexual rhetoric”

And yet this is the same authors’ rhetoric as the passages you quote me! Romans 8 also speaks of life in the Spirit and not the flesh, we are debating something of the flesh. Staying with Romans 8, you seem agitated but the peace of God comes to “those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.” The law of Christ is also to love not just our fellow man but God also. Paul writes “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

Also, I am surprised that you can reject Paul’s warnings of same-sex sex that I point out to you on the basis of interpretation and then quote Paul’s encouragements to me and expect I will interpret them the same as you. You quoted me Titus 3, paul again, “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures…..”He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit”, it is the same as 1 Cor 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

When Peter writes “Love covers a multitude of sins” Peter also precedes that with “Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God” 1 Peter 4



When you write as you did

“If we were true images of Christ I am sure the gay community would embrase our lovley Jesus as a lot do, many would come back to their first love [Jesus]. However because we constantly tell gay people that they will never make the mark, that they are not worthy, that our Jesus cannot accept them until they are "like us", we sell them a lie.

That isn’t what I understand as the gospel, I understand that (Romans 8:1) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” or who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit, and that Christ Jesus makes us worthy. I think it may be you who is giving the gay community the wrong image of Jesus.

Blessings

 

[fejao]

Ahab your post are only unhelpful because you are now attacking me as a person. I will no longer discuss this issue with you.

Fejao

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,

Ahab your post are only unhelpful because you are now attacking me as a person. .

Really? How? Is there any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

I will no longer discuss this issue with you

Fair enough but perhaps you also be kind enough not to discuss the issue with others under the same assumption it might be unhelpful to others and me?

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,
In fact I would say the passages of scriptures I posted from, Romans 8, Titus 3, 1 Peter 4 (two of which you quoted from) are full of encouragement rather than being unhelpful.
In fact the thread debate seems to have swung from anti-Christian hatred to anti-gay Christian hatred which is problably true if one is offended by the gospel and interprets it that way. Personally I can't see any hatred in the gospels but some apparently do.

 

[SuperMama]

On another site I visit the thread owner can delete the thread, ban members from their thread and delete posts. Here I have no such luxury. But the intention of this thread was to discuss Christianophobia not get into a sleeves rolled up boxing match over same sex sex.

Surely those of you who want to yell at each other about homo's can create a thread for this!!!! As this is only a small aspect of the anti Christian hatred that is growing like a Tsunami - to use a topical analogy.

 

[ahab]

Hi Supermama,



Yes but in fairness in your OP you mentioned two issues specifically in support, the political correctnesses such as happy holidays instead of happy Christmas and that you had also ‘felt the wrath of the gay community’

I think the thread thus far has supported and demonstrated that, but also that many find ‘Christian’ as anti what they believe in.



Nonetheless I apologise for digressing.



I think the issue of the Tsunami, and moves such as ‘Make poverty history’ are being managed in the secular media to deal with anger at a God who they blame, peoples unity and support in suffering and the different faiths part in it. Jesus is not necessarily popular.

 

[SuperMama]

Look it's not that I especially mind the homosexual aspect of this topic - I just dont want it becoming ALL it is about. It's bigger than just the gay aspect. People are becoming anti Christian without the gay chip on their shoulder one way or the other. Its almost P.C. to groan when you hear someone is a Christian.

 

[Mustaphile]

Look it's not that I especially mind the homosexual aspect of this topic - I just dont want it becoming ALL it is about. It's bigger than just the gay aspect. People are becoming anti Christian without the gay chip on their shoulder one way or the other. Its almost P.C. to groan when you hear someone is a Christian.

I don't blame them for groaning. They have good reason to groan, as they witness the fruits of a faith divorced of reason, and christian practices that mimick the worst excesses of the Pharisees, in having all piety and no mercy. Jesus didn't come to save the pious, he came to save the sinner. The pious would reject the sinners approach to Jesus and turn him away, when in fact Jesus begs them to come forward. As we turn away those in sin from the church we turn them away from Jesus in an effort to leave our piety intact. The pious stand between Jesus and the sinner and say, "Don't fellowship with this man for he is full of sin". This is anti-thetical to way Jesus lived his life.

Jesus said in parable;

Luk 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you; good measure, crushed down, full and running over, they will give to you. For in the same measure as you give, it will be given to you again.

If we give intolerance, we receive in intolerance, crushed down, full and running over, we will be given it.

If we give mercy and grace, we will receive mercy and grace, crushed down, full and running over, we will be given it.

The wisdom of Christ is there for people to see if they have eyes that see and ears that hear.

Mat 7:1 Be not judges of others, and you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For as you have been judging, so you will be judged, and with your measure will it be measured to you.

Another principle that comes from the same type of parable. We are judged harshly by the world, because we judge them harshly. When we look for where the problem lies, we need look no further than ourselves. Jesus is the light that illuminates the darkness and many christians need some illuminating, for they still walk in darkness.

We are the light on the hill. The beacon of Christ. We have responsibility to Christ to set the example of the highest love, the most grace, the most mercy. For if we don't bring love, grace and mercy into the world through Christ, then what are we?

If the salt loses it's flavour, how shall we make it salt again?

Mat 5:13 You are the salt of the earth; but if its taste goes from the salt, how will you make it salt again? it is then good for nothing but to be put out and crushed under foot by men.

We've lost our flavour and the truth of Christ teachings is coming true. We are good for nothing and we will be crushed under the feet of men.

The flavour of Christianity is love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, the peacemaker, the humble person, the man who walks amongst the sinners and gives them forgiveness, etc. It's the flavour of Christ.

 

[ahab]

Hi SuperMama,



Yes we can move on, but for Europe and the UK the issue arises frequently when there are objections to a Christian or a Christian’s point of view. For example Rocco Buttiglione. What alarmed me more recently on BBC when a television panel abandoned a discussion on a Bishop’s proposition as to the effectiveness and viability of abstention in the fight against Aids and sexual disease in favour of a hostile questioning about what the Bishop thinks about gay sex!



So in my experience, I have found some seriously aggressive attitudes towards me as a Christian and against my Christian views, but most of the negative is ridicule and the worst has been by far accusations of bigotry, hatred and Nazism on the same-sex sex issue.

Thankfully at present I am not one of the thousands of Christians in the world being imprisoned or tortured for the faith and the vast majority of people are not hostile in the slightest, they just have preconceptions and caution.

 

[Mustaphile]

So in my experience, I have found some seriously aggressive attitudes towards me as a Christian and against my Christian views, but most of the negative is ridicule and the worst has been by far accusations of bigotry, hatred and Nazism on the same-sex sex issue.

It's only a reflection of what you are putting out, though ahab. I love you, ahab, as a christian seeking to please Christ and be obedient to his word, but I would like you to acknowledge this principle that Christ taught us. It's through concern for you coming to understand this principle that I say this to you. You get back in full measure what you put out. Just love them brother and they will love you back. Hate their sin and they will hate your sin. Pointing out peoples sins is like throwing rocks at people for their sins. You throw rocks at them and they will throw rocks back at you. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Jesus had no sin, and still didn't throw any rocks. He let the people come to him and confess their sins. They are convicted of themselves, and this is what brings them back to God. Let God do the convicting, because when we do things in our own strength we push God out of the way, when he is quite capable of handling the situation all on his own. Have faith and let God do his thing. I beg you brother, give some grace and mercy to those around you. They desperately need it.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,

Peter writes “Love covers a multitude of sins” Peter also precedes that with “Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God” 1 Peter 4
Love is also a reflection of how we live our lives, stuck on talking about what is sin is not living for the Kingdom.
The OP has questioned what anti-Christian sentiment we have experienced, and I have given my experiences that confirm one of those is the same for me. I have homosexually and bisexually orientated friends and they know what I say but we stiil talk and yet here there seems to be such intolerance.
Are you judging me? Please tell me what I have said that is not the flavour of Christianity?

The pious stand between Jesus and the sinner and say, "Don't fellowship with this man for he is full of sin". This is anti-thetical to way Jesus lived his life.

Do the scriptures not say that if we love Jesus we will do all He teaches, besides I disagree, IMO the scriptures reveal it is only through Jesus that any of us have any piety at all. No –one is good except God and we all fall short of His glory Yes?

It's only a reflection of what you are putting out, though ahab.

Exactly what?, because most of what I have been putting out is scriptures to a fellow Christian.

Just love them brother and they will love you back. Hate their sin and they will hate your sin.

I hate my sin but I don't promote it to others brother. Sorry I dont follow you here.

Pointing out peoples sins is like throwing rocks at people for their sins. You throw rocks at them and they will throw rocks back at you.

True but we as Christians are set free not to sin. You seem to have abandoned your calling. Once again can you tell me why you feel it is right to challenge someone who points out sin but not someone who sins, or have you decided what that sin is and taken a judgmental stand?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Absolutely, and what is the stone, the scripture that tells of the sin and to go and sin no more, or that same scripture that says Jesus does not condemn, or both? I am only putting out what the gospel says! Some are challenging it by putting out what they think the gospel doesn’t say. Surely our task as Christians is just as much not to promote sin as to correct and rebuke? Yes?

Hate their sin and they will hate your sin.”

I do hate my sin and I don’t get offended by having it exposed. Don't you hate yours? Maybe some promote it and get offended and defensive when challenged. I am not so much interested in anyone’s sin unless they are trying to promote it.

He let the people come to him and confess their sins. They are convicted of themselves, and this is what brings them back to God.

Yes that’s how the Holy Spirit works but what did He say to those who didn’t come and confess their sins but tried to tell Jesus what was what? And also how can the Holy Spirit convict someone of a sin that is revealed or acknoweldged?

Let God do the convicting, because when we do things in our own strength we push God out of the way, when he is quite capable of handling the situation all on his own.

But how is God going to convict someone if it has already been made plain what is wrong and they chose to ignore it. Thats waht we are debating. Also how are you going to tell someone not to discuss this when the Holy Spirit convicts them to correct the other as Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come….So watch yourselves…..If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." Yet you seem to be contradicting Jesus by assuming that to debate is to judge. You give me scriptures about judgment and yet have ignored the ones that concern me, namely those about sexual immorality. I have already shared agreement and encouragement with Fejao on another thread, I have no animosity towards him and yet this topic is where the enemy gets in, it causes accusations of hate and intollerance.

 

[fejao]

Hi Fejao,




Really? How? Is there any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

Fair enough but perhaps you also be kind enough not to discuss the issue with others under the same assumption it might be unhelpful to others and me?

No I cant Ahab this is a forum where I am free to express my thoughts. just as you are. I do not feel condemned at all my friend, however resorting to personal comments or implying something is what was not helpful.

Fejao

 

[Mustaphile]

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


Ahab, look at these words above. The words of Jesus Christ.

You have been given the gift of faith. You are the servant who knows God's will, through Jesus Christ. You are the one called to the example of Christ. Christ suffered the sins of the world and and did not judge the man who did not believe HIS words. So you are called to suffer the sins of the world and show forgiveness, grace, mercy and love towards all man, but not judgement, as Christ did not judge. If you fail to do God's will for you in being a witness of Christ in this world, then you will be the servant who receives many stripes. The person who doesnt know God's will, will receive less!
Think about that. To you, who has been given much, much is required. This is why you are a christian. This is why you have the gift of faith. You are called by God to be an ambassador of Christ. How many times did Christ say to forgive? Seventy times seventy, which is basically telling you that you are called to forgive all. This is your burden. This your cross. Are you going to carry it? If you don't forgive your not carrying that burden of Christ. Your not letting the judgement of men, die on the Cross.

 

[ahab]

No I cant Ahab this is a forum where I am free to express my thoughts. just as you are. I do not feel condemned at all my friend, however resorting to personal comments or implying something is what was not helpful.

Sorry Fejao, but were you not the first to call my post unhelpful? Are we now to resort to a slanging match?
I hope not

 

[fejao]

Sorry Fejao, but were you not the first to call my post unhelpful? Are we now to resort to a slanging match?
I hope not

I am sorry Ahab I said your post was unhelpful because you said;

"on the issue as tackle your statements on this issue which my friend seem tom me false and arrogant."

Resorting to personal comments worded like this are not helpful, if we want to have a Christ centered discussion. I quite specifically quoted this in my post and refered only to this post, therefore this did not mean all your posts.

You again make a comment about me and then have the audacity to say there is no condemnation for thoes that are in Christ.

"I think it may be you who is giving the gay community the wrong image of Jesus."

You then say that I was the insigator of this;

"Sorry Fejao, but were you not the first to call my post unhelpful? Are we now to resort to a slanging match?
I hope not"

This is what I dont think is helpful and against forum rules.



Fejao

 

[Mustaphile]

True but we as Christians are set free not to sin. You seem to have abandoned your calling. Once again can you tell me why you feel it is right to challenge
someone who points out sin but not someone who sins, or have you decided what that sin is and taken a judgmental stand?

Ahab, sin was conquered by Jesus on the cross. We are set free from sin. Whatever sin you have in your life, you have been set free from. Whatever sin is in the lives of others they have been set free from. It died on the cross. Every time you point out someones sin you are implying that they have not conquered sin. None of us has conquered sin. Christ has conquered it for us. Why point out sin at all? God convicts the sinner. You offend the sinner by claiming you have the right to judge him, when your own life has sin it in it! Your not good, your a sinner. I'm a sinner. We are all sinners redeemed by Christ. Why do you point out others sins to effect that you day you doubt their salvation? You don't have the right to judge. Your called to not judge. Salvation is the message, not condemnation, not judgement, but salvation of man. This is Good News. Do you ever wonder why someone would not find your Good News a little short of something to rejoice over? Have you contemplated which parts of your Good News cause some to doubt that it is Good News at all? Christ's message is Good News, but your message is not Good News at all! It's awful news! The Good News is It's a light yoke of Christ, compared to the heavy yoke of the Pharisee, who's goal was piety, but lacked mercy and forgiveness.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mustaphile,



The words of Jesus Christ and His teachings have been posted throughtout this thread, I don’t see how these passages do anything but support all that I have said. The scriptures are there to encourage and lead us in truth and the life in all its fullness, they are not there to beat others up with, nor are they there for us to use them like you are doing. As Paul says, “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters” Debating the scriptures is not passing judgment on people. The scriptures contain blessings and promises of who we are in Jesus. The truth is Jesus and there is no condemnation in Him. We are not condemned by a sin we might do but by not receiving the truth in Jesus. So I also ask you to look at the scriptures, not at me or anyone else and ask yourself “Who are you to judge someone else's servant?” who speaks the word of truth? Do we not have the hope of glory through Jesus Christ, not through comparison with each other, He is our hope, so lets not take our focus of Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith Colossians 2:10 “and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.” That’s the sort of judgment Jesus has made of us. That’s what counts, not that we are too condemned to discuss our sin.

If you want to focus on not pointing out sin then focus equally on those who call themselves brother and promote it. Also the yoke of Jesus is not heavy, we cant do this in our own strength we do it in the strength of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[ahab]

Hi Fejao,

I felt your first page posts were unhelpful false, arrogant and unrepresenative of both Christains and homosexuals. You are offended at my comments and I have told you what I think of yours.

You again make a comment about me and then have the audacity to say there is no condemnation for thoes that are in Christ.

But that there is no condemantion in Christ Jesus is the truth. My comments wil pas away but Jesus words will never pass away..
I do think you are giving the gay community the wrong image of Jesus by your comments that I highlited as unrepresentative.

Peace

 

[fejao]

Hi,
SuperMama I ask that you forgive me in my digression on this thread. Now back to your subject at hand. I think any kind of phobia is an irrational fear of something, it may be that people who are anti-Christian have had bad experiences in their childhood or with Christians in general. There probally is some spiritual aspect to Christianophobia, some might suggest the spirit of anti-christ working and affecting people.

Also I think respect is an element that comes into play in any phobia, be it Christians, Muslims, Minorities etc and not observing loving your neighbour. I think if we walked more in respect and loved our neighbours as ourselves, there would be more tolerance.

I think sometimes we as Christians can be immature, we want everything our way or its the highway. However we forget that God gave each of us freewill, freewill to follow his commands or not. We as Christians want our cities and countries to be holy places walking in the will of God, which would be an amazing place if it was actually possible. I think as Christians we should not force Jesus onto anyone, be it through politics or the law that would mean essentially we would be playing God and taking away peoples freewill and history proves what a terrible enviroment its creates when Christians try to play God. Also Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gentlemen and would never force themselves on anyone [freewill], I believe we should not either.

Anyway I think we could take a pessimistic view on life and say Christianophobia is the by-product of a society that is turning away from God and Satan is gaining more of a stronghold in peoples lives and society. However its sometimes in a place of dispair and ruin that God can move more mightly and in the end he uses the seeming bad to bring glory to his name and people turn to him. A great example of this is communism, a society devoid of God essentially. Now we see places like Russia in which Christianophobia was rife and well God was just kicked out ! We see the terrible impact that had on the country, however now once communism fell and God got his visa for Russia we see a nation turning back to him with great enthusiam and amazing things happening there.

I think the parable of the lost son is a great example of how Jesus treats lost sons and daughters. He goes to where people are at and gives them the free gifts of sonship, even when they are not in a total place of submission to him and still far away [in sin], as we all are. However his grace and sacrifice on the cross is so amazing that if we accept the gift, we are sinless in his sight through Jesus. He loves us so much in our imperfect state, that he throws a big party to celebrate. Then we see the older brother who I think could be a represents us Christians. We complain because we are observing the laws and being good and here the father has accepted the son a blatant sinner back into the family and given him the gifts of sonship and eternal life. I think we may have lost some insight into the heart of the father and the amazing gift of the cross. However we stay out of the party, complaning, brooding and thinking of all the sins and being like a pharasee.

However we as Christians are a terrible example pointing the finger and blaming other people for the sin in our society and the Christianophobia, we dont like to take the responsiblility that what is happening in our society is just as much a fault of Christians and the church as it is societies. If we want Christianophobia to decrease and to see God move again in our countries, we are the ones who have to change first, not other people, not thoes sinners.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.


Fejao x





I rambled again on this post, drat. Well I think its probitable the rambling lol .