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Chimps and humans: How similar are we really?

JonFromMinnesota

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Humans (descendants of Adam) did NOT descend from the common ancestor of Apes and did NOT diverge from Chimps

This doesn't even begin to make sense. Humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

The sons of God (prehistoric people) DID descend from other animals. This is important since ONLY Adam was made with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22 IOW, Science has confused prehistoric man, with Adam's descendants who arrived only 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat in the Ark. Amen?

You get an F. Please take an intro to biology course instead of making things up.
 
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mark kennedy

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No not kidding at all. I considered THIS tree and concluded it is not valid to explain phylogenetics. It is wanting o so many ways.

Do not know this "Walter Brown" guy and I DO believe in evolution just not everything "evolutionists" say about it. And the tree in this case was produced for our perusal by a non-creationist So the purpose and reason for your comment eludes me.
Universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means has no exceptions, it's an a priori assumption. If you do not make the first assumption of Darwinian natural history the second assumption automatically kicks in the you are ignorant of science. Any argument contrary to that tree is considered an argument from incredulity which is a nice word for ignorance.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case.” (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species)
This proposed null hypothesis for Darwin's theory of natural selection, which by the way, he called, 'On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life'. Included various species (varieties, races) of man.

I see no molecular basis for the origination of any of them, including cellular organelles. A contemporary of Darwin's, that is now known as the father of genetics, developed and ultimately produced at least three laws of science (Segregation, Independent Assortment, Dominance). At the dawn of the 20th century it became a mathematical model that propelled chromosome theory and the hunt for the DNA ahead by leaps and bounds for half a century. Darwinism inspired various social, legal and political theories including Social Darwinism. Darwinism is far more the a theory, it has never had a real inverse logic so it doesn't even qualify as an hypothesis, it's the formal doctrine of universal and perpetual change:

In his rejection of natural law and natural rights, and with it a liberal constitutionalism of limited state power, Holmes laid the groundwork for the contemporary era of jurisprudence, where judges came to look to their visions of the future more than to documents and doctrines of the past, and thus to take on a new and far more active role in the constitutional order.(see OLIVER WENDELL HOLMES, JR. and the NATURAL LAW)
Liberal and conservative are terms whose meaning is relative to change, a conservative judge would be a strict constructionist for example. So, what on earth does this have to do with taxonomy you may well be wondering. This philosophy, aka pragmatism and Darwinism, was the underlying theme behind decisions like the one permitting eugenics:

We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough. (Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in Buck v. Bell, a 1927 Supreme court case upholding a Virginia law that authorized the state to surgically sterilize certain “mental defectives” without their consent.)
65,000 people were sterilized under such laws, which were enacted in more than 30 states. (USA)

Notice in this thread the complete abandonment of the substantive arguments or evidence surrounding comparative genomics. In addition to derailing the subject matter of the OP, do note the seething contempt for anyone who so much as questions the validity of the universal common ancestry, Darwinian tree of life. There is a reason for that, it's because an inference of theistic involvement is categorically rejected.

This is the most important thing, even if you don't invoke God as Creator or Designer. To question the presuppositional logic of Darwinism is viewed with contempt across the board, in academics and science.

I didn't start the Culture War, Darwinians did. I just made a past time of considering their arguments and found them to be riddled with fallacious rhetoric where they should be appealing to evidencial reasoning.

This isn't about science, or the phenomenon known as evolution. It's presuppositional logic in it's purest and most mutually exclusive form. BTW, thanks for the OP, it was refreshing. Fossils and radiometric dating give us the burden of proof with regards to developing traits. Comparative anatomy and genomics give us the basis for evidencial proofs and logical disproofs. Ultimately, Genetics is the prize. Do not be discouraged, the answers you seek are evident and will become obvious if you are determined to find them.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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This doesn't even begin to make sense. Humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

Ape is not a taxonomic category:

Definition of ape:
  1. monkey; especially : one of the larger tailless or short-tailed Old World forms. Or, any of various large tailless semi-erect primates of Africa and southeastern Asia (such as the chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, or gibbon) —called also anthropoid, anthropoid ape — compare great ape
  2. a : mimic, or, a large uncouth person. (Ape Merriam-Webster)
You get an F. Please take an intro to biology course instead of making things up.

Biology is about how living systems work, it has nothing to do with dead ancestors. Your making an ad hominem attack argument, a fallacy, which means it's an argument that never happened. Yours is a withdraw failure and oh, BTW, I got a B in college Biology and Darwinism had nothing to do with any of the course material. Just like your argument has nothing to do with Biology and certainly, comparative genomics. Try actually doing the background reading before judging someone who has.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Ape is not a taxonomic category

Apes are a branch of primates that include humans. We're part of the family Hominidae. It includes chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas and humans.

Biology is about how living systems work, it has nothing to do with dead ancestors

Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution. If you worked in the department of natural resources, do you think you could do your job without understanding evolution? For example, if you were faced with a problem of the sizes of fish in a fish population becoming smaller and smaller, what experiment would you run to explain what is happening?

oh, BTW, I got a B in college Biology and Darwinism had nothing to do with any of the course material

That's great. Do you work in a field of biology? Also, my reply was to aman and he was clearly making things up with no evidence to back his claims.
 
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mark kennedy

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Apes are a branch of primates that include humans. We're part of the family Hominidae. It includes chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas and humans.

Ape is not a taxonomic category, we are categorized as follows:

Domain: Eukarya, Nucleus, organelles
Kingdom: Animalia, Ingests food, multicellular, no cell wall
Phylum: Chordata, Spinal cord
Subphylum: Vertebrata, Segmented backbone
Superclass: Tetrapoda, Four limbs
Class: Mammalia: Nurse offspring
Subclass: Theria, Live birth
Order: Primates, High level of intelligence
Family: Hominidae, Walk upright
Genus: Homo, Human
Species: H. sapiens, Modern human (Life Science,Taxonomic Classification)​

We are composed of Eukaryotic, animalia cells, we have a spinal cord, segmented backbone, four limbs, nurse offspring from the breast. Give live birth and are characterized by high intelligence. We walk upright and specifically named, Homo sapiens sapiens, the species so nice they name it twice. Nothing in the categorization includes the term, 'ape'. You are wrong again.

Your the one who needs to learn something about the Life Sciences, follow the link to learn something about taxonomic categories.
Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution. If you worked in the department of natural resources, do you think you could do your job without understanding evolution? For example, if you were faced with a problem of the sizes of fish in a fish population becoming smaller and smaller, what experiment would you run to explain what is happening?

Beyond the level of genus I wouldn't need taxonomic categories except to research data as it is organized. Without the Dewey Decimal system we would have a tough time finding a book on a particular subject so it does have that benefit. Not that I need Darwinian naturalistic assumptions to understand natural science.

That's great. Do you work in a field of biology? Also, my reply was to aman and he was clearly making things up with no evidence to back his claims.
This isn't about science, it's about supposition and I respond to posts as I see fit, I need neither your permission nor your approval.
 
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Aman777

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This doesn't even begin to make sense. Humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

You get an F. Please take an intro to biology course instead of making things up.

Only Evolutionists, who do not understand where Humans came from, falsely believe that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes. They have confused the sons of God (prehistoric people) with Humans (descendants of Adam). Noah was the FIRST Human on Planet Earth. Want empirical (testable) evidence?
 
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Aman777

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Apes are a branch of primates that include humans. We're part of the family Hominidae. It includes chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas and humans.

ONLY if you reject Genesis which clearly shows that Adam, the first Human, was made with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22 Can you explain the process of How God's superior intelligence got inside Apes? Of course not. You accept that Lie because today's Evolutionists forgot about the flood which totally destroyed the world where Humans had our origin. ll Peter 3:3-7 They falsely assumed that Humans evolved our superior intelligence BUT they have NO evidence to support their speculations. Today, they are caught in God's SNARE.

*** Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution. If you worked in the department of natural resources, do you think you could do your job without understanding evolution? For example, if you were faced with a problem of the sizes of fish in a fish population becoming smaller and smaller, what experiment would you run to explain what is happening?

Sure, since the word "evolution" is nothing more than God's descent with modification between His (Jesus) and Their (Trinity) kinds. Godless people dreamed up the word evolution in a vain attempt to eliminate God from His Creation. In doing so, they became fools.

*** That's great. Do you work in a field of biology? Also, my reply was to aman and he was clearly making things up with no evidence to back his claims.

Wrong again since I support what I post with the AGREEMENT of Scripture, Science and History. Do you?
 
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Aman777

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Hominidae are also known as the great apes. But you knew this, right?

Great apes became Chimps and the sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps 6 Million years ago. Problem is prehistoric people were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam). Were they?

What you reveal is the "willing ignorance" of today's Scoffers of the last days. 2Pet3:3 They forgot about the flood and the Ark which brought Adam's superior intelligence to this planet of the common ancestor of Apes. History AGREES.
 
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pitabread

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Great apes became Chimps and the sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps 6 Million years ago. Problem is prehistoric people were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam). Were they?

What you reveal is the "willing ignorance" of today's Scoffers of the last days. 2Pet3:3 They forgot about the flood and the Ark which brought Adam's superior intelligence to this planet of the common ancestor of Apes. History AGREES.

I have no idea what you're going on about and quite frankly, I don't even care.

I don't put any stock in Bible myths.
 
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Aman777

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I have no idea what you're going on about and quite frankly, I don't even care.

I don't put any stock in Bible myths.

I don't put any stock in changeable Science myths like the False ToE, but I listen when evolutionists speak. What i was trying to tell you was that there is NO process for installing God's superior intelligence in Apes. Humans inherit their superior intelligence from other Humans (descendants of Adam). IOW, NO Ape has ever magically changed into a Human and you have NO evidence which shows this. If you think you do, then post it.
 
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pitabread

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I don't put any stock in changeable Science myths like the False ToE, but I listen when evolutionists speak.

The funny thing about science is it doesn't matter whether you personally subscribe to it or not. The ToE will still remain a fundamental part of modern biology and it's application thereof regardless of your personal opinion on it.

IOW, NO Ape has ever magically changed into a Human and you have NO evidence which shows this. If you think you do, then post it.

Here's the thing. If you were genuinely interested in the evidence for human evolution, you'd be off at the library or combing Google Scholar or whatever.. You wouldn't be here issuing a silly challenge on a forum. You get to believe whatever you want. I don't really care what those beliefs are nor have any interest in changing your mind.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Only Evolutionists, who do not understand where Humans came from, falsely believe that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes

Humans are apart of the hominidae family, which are the great apes. So we didn't evolve from apes, humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps and the evidence is overwhelming. The best part is this evidence won't go away no matter how many claims you make up.

Noah was the FIRST Human on Planet Earth. Want empirical (testable) evidence?

I'm not sure you understand what evidence is but humor me.
 
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Aman777

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The funny thing about science is it doesn't matter whether you personally subscribe to it or not. The ToE will still remain a fundamental part of modern biology and it's application thereof regardless of your personal opinion on it.

Sure it matters since evolutionists Lie to children today and tell them that they are evolved Apes with NO evidence EXCEPT the word of another evolutionist. That's circular thinking and ALSO why none of them can supply any evidence for such an event. Just take our word for it, they spew.

*** Here's the thing. If you were genuinely interested in the evidence for human evolution, you'd be off at the library or combing Google Scholar or whatever.. You wouldn't be here issuing a silly challenge on a forum. You get to believe whatever you want. I don't really care what those beliefs are nor have any interest in changing your mind.

Then continue preaching the false religion of evolution to little children. Soon, some of your fellow science worshippers will be exposed as frauds since they have NO evidence to support their false beliefs/religion of Evolutionism. God Bless you
 
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Aman777

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Humans are apart of the hominidae family, which are the great apes. So we didn't evolve from apes, humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps and the evidence is overwhelming. The best part is this evidence won't go away no matter how many claims you make up.

Provably False since Humans were made long BEFORE the common ancestor of Apes.

*** I'm not sure you understand what evidence is but humor me.

Sure. Below is Historic evidence contained in the Fertile Crescent of Northern Mesopotamia, where the FIRST Human farming, city building and EVERY other trait of modern Humans suddenly appeared 11k years ago. Go find any map of the Fertile Crescent and you will see that Noah walked down from Lake Van, Turkey into the land between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, and brought Humanity (Adam's descendants) to this planet. Be nice and I will show you where to find the richest most exciting Treasure on Earth, buried there. God Bless you

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE
 
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pshun2404

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Humans are apart of the hominidae family, which are the great apes. So we didn't evolve from apes, humans are apes. We share a common ancestor with chimps and the evidence is overwhelming. The best part is this evidence won't go away no matter how many claims you make up.

I'm not sure you understand what evidence is but humor me.

Two things. First clarification about an important issue regarding the intentional changing of terminology (infusing it with new uncommon meaning or intention) used predominately as a tool of propaganda sadly made a part of scientific "presentation" by the more racist early pro-Dawinians and followed by others after (usually only seen in the dishonest practice of political persuasion). And secondly, in another post (for YOUR education) what empirical really means.

Now contrary to what another poster wrote "Hominidae" (the term invented so it could seem humans are also apes) IS a taxanomic classification within the family primate. By the late 1800s the term "Hominid" (which was always understood to be "man" not apes in any way) became revised. Until that time there was a clear distinction between Hominidae and Pongidae!

By the early 20th century, when the then mostly racist early pro-Darwinians (not that Darwin himself was a racist) realized this distinction opposed their theory (their theoretical assumptions), they infused new meaning into this distinction by creating the classification hominidae to convince the more ignorant (unknowledgeable) populace that man was also an Ape.

Hitherto in all time no one hearing that term (hominid) would have ever made that leap, and for a decade or two until it took hold it had its dissenters. Other terms pro-Darwinians had to alter in meaning to make their hypothesis appear true are species, transitional, vestigial, and even the term "evolution" which at that time even dissenters did not deny.
 
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pitabread

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Sure it matters since evolutionists Lie to children today and tell them that they are evolved Apes with NO evidence EXCEPT the word of another evolutionist. That's circular thinking and ALSO why none of them can supply any evidence for such an event. Just take our word for it, they spew.

Evolution, including evolutionary relationships (i.e. phylogenetics) is an applied science. The reason it's taught is because it has real world application and therefore potentially economic consequences. In order to retain an economically competitive edge, it behooves any nation to ensure their population is educated so they train enough knowledge workers for biology related industries.

This is why the science of evolution and its related education is never going away, no matter how much you don't want to accept it. This is also why I said it really doesn't matter what you believe. Science marches on regardless of what you think.
 
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pshun2404

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Secondly the poster (though I also disagree with their position) said they may show some empirical evidence to which you (JFM) implied they may not know what evidence IS or perhaps means. So I am going to reveal to you what "empirical" actually is and why there can be empirical evidence for a spiritual realm even a massive flooding of the then known world.

Not because I am making a point about proving such things but that perhaps it is YOU who does not understand what "evidence" is. There are about 7 lines of inquiry that is defined as "evidence" but we will here look at what constitutes "empirical" and then if you need more examples I can give some?

Empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by, observation, experience, or experiment

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation, experience, or experimentation

Adjective

1.derived from, or guided by, experience or experiment

2 .depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.

3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.


So we can see here, that in fact, empirical evidence does not rely on having to be demonstrated by the scientific method whatsoever, and thus God can be said to be proven to exist through empirical means.

Example 1: Millions through time have seen into this realm (millions more have not). Millions have heard from this realm (millions have not). We hear what this God has said would take place, and then witness/observe that it has (though many have not). We experience God personally and our experience with God has shown to us He is real and alive (though many have not experienced this). The value of God's wisdom can be demonstrated in the transformation of people's lives and natures. Since we are guided by God, and our experience with God is derived from God, then it is that God is established empirically.

Example 2: Even in science, if one follows a set of outlined protocols and comes to a certain conclusion, it is usually sufficient to establish cause for experimentation by others. If in the course of time many, many, others who followed the same protocols come to the same conclusion, it is almost readily accepted as factually true.

Now in fact millions of people throughout time have done just that in relation to this God and the protocols He has established. They have followed the protocols provided to the letter, and have come to the same conclusion regarding the result. How is that? If a scientific hypothesis had such results you would consider it (as I would) an established fact.

Now aside from following the teachings of Jesus through the Apostles, Buddhism, which does not speak of God, is still very similar. Most other paths are culturally ingrained but these two contain a prescription of method. So again, Buddhism speaks of how to obtain an enlightened state with peace of mind and good health….it outlines the ancient protocols (S.O.P.s) in The Eightfold Path….millions have followed this path…millions clearly have derived the same results, therefore Buddhists have empirical evidence that supports Gautama’s claim. His general conclusions are true and verifiable. The effect this has on the individuals is both observable and demonstrable (two important qualifiers of good evidence).

Now having said that, as with any experiment, if there are some who did not obtain the same result, it is most likely (and usually true) that they did not meet the requirements or follow the procedures of the outlined protocols correctly or efficiently.

So one can clearly see that there is ample empirical evidence (unless you guys have conveniently changed that term also)...
 
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Speedwell

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Secondly the poster (though I also disagree with their position) said they may show some empirical evidence to which you (JFM) implied they may not know what evidence IS or perhaps means. So I am going to reveal to you what "empirical" actually is and why there can be empirical evidence for a spiritual realm even a massive flooding of the then known world.

Not because I am making a point about proving such things but that perhaps it is YOU who does not understand what "evidence" is. There are about 7 lines of inquiry that is defined as "evidence" but we will here look at what constitutes "empirical" and then if you need more examples I can give some?

Empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by, observation, experience, or experiment

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation, experience, or experimentation

Adjective

1.derived from, or guided by, experience or experiment

2 .depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.

3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.


So we can see here, that in fact, empirical evidence does not rely on having to be demonstrated by the scientific method whatsoever, and thus God can be said to be proven to exist through empirical means.

Example 1: Millions through time have seen into this realm (millions more have not). Millions have heard from this realm (millions have not). We hear what this God has said would take place, and then witness/observe that it has (though many have not). We experience God personally and our experience with God has shown to us He is real and alive (though many have not experienced this). The value of God's wisdom can be demonstrated in the transformation of people's lives and natures. Since we are guided by God, and our experience with God is derived from God, then it is that God is established empirically.

Example 2: Even in science, if one follows a set of outlined protocols and comes to a certain conclusion, it is usually sufficient to establish cause for experimentation by others. If in the course of time many, many, others who followed the same protocols come to the same conclusion, it is almost readily accepted as factually true.

Now in fact millions of people throughout time have done just that in relation to this God and the protocols He has established. They have followed the protocols provided to the letter, and have come to the same conclusion regarding the result. How is that? If a scientific hypothesis had such results you would consider it (as I would) an established fact.

Now aside from following the teachings of Jesus through the Apostles, Buddhism, which does not speak of God, is still very similar. Most other paths are culturally ingrained but these two contain a prescription of method. So again, Buddhism speaks of how to obtain an enlightened state with peace of mind and good health….it outlines the ancient protocols (S.O.P.s) in The Eightfold Path….millions have followed this path…millions clearly have derived the same results, therefore Buddhists have empirical evidence that supports Gautama’s claim. His general conclusions are true and verifiable. The effect this has on the individuals is both observable and demonstrable (two important qualifiers of good evidence).

Now having said that, as with any experiment, if there are some who did not obtain the same result, it is most likely (and usually true) that they did not meet the requirements or follow the procedures of the outlined protocols correctly or efficiently.

So one can clearly see that there is ample empirical evidence (unless you guys have conveniently changed that term also)...
Except that this discussion is not about the existence of God, really, it is about the interpretation of a particular holy book of a particular religious sect. What empirical evidence do you have which bears on that question?
 
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pitabread

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We experience God personally and our experience with God has shown to us He is real and alive (though many have not experienced this). The value of God's wisdom can be demonstrated in the transformation of people's lives and natures. Since we are guided by God, and our experience with God is derived from God, then it is that God is established empirically.

That doesn't empirically demonstrate there is a god. At best, it can demonstrate that people believe there is a god. But belief in a god and existence of a god are not the same thing.
 
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