Charting Revelation 6-19

[keras]

The seals themselves don't do anything, except to secure the book from being opened. We use the term 1st seal, 2nd seal, and so on just for a reference.

If you are talking about the principle that just because that the seals have been opened already, that doesn't equate to the revealed events as having taken place yet.... then I can agree with that principle.

What the Seals described - happened as they were opened.
Jesus opened the first Five Seals at His Ascension, Revelation 4:7, 6:1, 6:3, 6:5, 6:7, 6:9. Note carefully those five Seals say; He opened them.
But in Revelation 6:12 I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal.... a change of wording there and what happens when He does break the SS, is terrible things that have not occurred yet.

Why would think that?

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is a time gap of a half hour in heaven. Not earthly time.
A simple calculation using the formula of 1000 years on earth equaling one day to God, gives 20.8 earth years for 1/48th of a heavenly day. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8
15-25 years is 'about' right for all the prophesied things in Revelation 6:12 to 19:11, to take place.

 

[Douggg]

What the Seals described - happened as they were opened.
Jesus opened the first Five Seals at His Ascension, Revelation 4:7, 6:1, 6:3, 6:5, 6:7, 6:9. Note carefully those five Seals say; He opened them.
But in Revelation 6:12 I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal.... a change of wording there and what happens when He does break the SS, is terrible things that have not occurred yet.

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is a time gap of a half hour in heaven. Not earthly time.
A simple calculation using the formula of 1000 years on earth equaling one day to God, gives 20.8 earth years for 1/48th of a heavenly day. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8
15-25 years is 'about' right for all the prophesied things in Revelation 6:12 to 19:11, to take place.

Keras, if we could just get to a stage in a discussion without adding the appendage "opened" in regard to the seals and unfulfilled events , I would be happy. I am not intending to single you out. It is commonly done by others as well.

 

[Douggg]

But in Revelation 6:12 I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal.... a change of wording there and what happens when He does break the SS, is terrible things that have not occurred yet.

You are relying on that recent ESV translation. It seems to me that the translators chose a different wording to make their eschatology view sound right.

In the KJV.... translated in the 1600's did not have the same motivation.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

[Douggg]

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is a time gap of a half hour in heaven. Not earthly time.
A simple calculation using the formula of 1000 years on earth equaling one day to God, gives 20.8 earth years for 1/48th of a heavenly day. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8
15-25 years is 'about' right for all the prophesied things in Revelation 6:12 to 19:11, to take place.

keras, I don't think the conclusion you are making to apply the half hour to earth time is something that needs to be done. The SDA do something similar in their interpretation of a day is a year applied in every instance when timeframes are given in prophecy.

Everything, including the trumpet judgments, has to fit within the 7 years. Which all of the timeframes in Revelation are found after John eats the little book in Revelation 10.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, I too believe that Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. I think we both could agree that when Christ is on the white horse in Revelation 19, He is no longer sitting at the right hand of God.

What I’m trying to get at is how someone who has the view that the millennium is future accounts for Christ not being at the right hand of God.

According to Psalms 110:1 Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool. 1 Corinthians 15:25 says He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that death is an enemy and it’s the last enemy to be destroyed. I think we both can agree here that Christ must remain at the right hand of God until death is made his footstool.

My question is how can Christ leave the right hand of God and be on the white horse prior to a millennium that has death in it? Isaiah 65:20 seems to indicate that there will be death in the millennium. This is why I asked Douggg if “sitting at the right hand of God” must be spiritualized or if he thought Christ was not currently sitting at the right hand of God. So how do you account for this apparent conflict?

The full mystery will not be revealed until the 7th Trumpet. The church will know at the 6th seal more than they do now. We do not even know the 7 Thunders that no one remembers have to happen. The seals 1 through 3 have been opened over the last 9 months, but no one seems to comprehend God’s timing and even the reasoning of the seals.

The 7 seals are the literal opening, over about a year or so period of time, of the Lamb's book of life. It is the unsealing of the church, those in Christ, which has been sealed up since before the creation of the universe. Once the 7th seal is opened, names will be removed, blotted out. The seals are not some historical spiritualized timeline, nor historical people and events proof of some one world system. We can see this year, the world may have attempted to come together for one month, but now it is every nation for itself, and who can steal whose vaccine first. The seals are not an indication of politics. Sorry folks, the Bible is not a horoscope or political rag magazine. The seals are about the church, the church's judgment, and the churches preparedness as who is wise and who is foolish. In other words this is the trib, not history.

Now the throne and the Lamb by God's side is seen in the 6th seal. It is not defined as to the mechanics. That is why, all these questions about who is where may only be answered at that time. If the throne of God actually sets on or above the earth so the earth holds the feet as a footstool, then Christ sitting next to God will be on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

keras, I don't think the conclusion you are making to apply the half hour to earth time is something that needs to be done. The SDA do something similar in their interpretation of a day is a year applied in every instance when timeframes are give in prophecy.

Everything, including the trumpet judgments, has to fit within the 7 years. Which all of the timeframes in Revelation are found after John eats the little book in Revelation 10.

They all do not even have to fit in 7 years. Who are the elect time is shortened for? Were the 1st century martyrs praying for this generation? Or is this generation currently praying now, day in and day out via the internet, and God is answering these prayers as Jesus prophecied over 1990 years ago?

I do not see it matter either way. God already removed 3.5 years, and no where does the Bible say He has changed His mind and will give them back. They are gone forever, no matter what churches will currently preach or teach. Only those today would understand what God did. But if no one accepts that or believes that, before the 6th seal, it is ok. It was still shortened for the elects sake.

 

[Douggg]

Once the 7th seal is opened, names will be removed, blotted out.

What bible passage are you basing that statement on?

 

[Douggg]

They all do not even have to fit in 7 years. Who are the elect time is shortened for? Were the 1st century martyrs praying for this generation? Or is this generation currently praying now, day in and day out via the internet, and God is answering these prayers as Jesus prophecied over 1990 years ago?

I do not see it matter either way. God already removed 3.5 years, and no where does the Bible say He has changed His mind and will give them back. They are gone forever, no matter what churches will currently preach or teach. Only those today would understand what God did. But if no one accepts that or believes that, before the 6th seal, it is ok. It was still shortened for the elects sake.

Tim, I have no idea of what you are trying to communicate.

The elect will be them who believe in Jesus, here on earth when the great tribulation is taking place. For their sake, the great tribulation will not be allowed to take it's course to it's ultimate end of all life on earth being eradicated.

 

[Timtofly]

What bible passage are you basing that statement on?

The rest of the book of Revelation. The goats and tares are blotted out. Those who worship Satan are blotted out. At the GWT names blotted out. Some say names are added, or never there. They need to show those verses that say added, or never there.

 

[Douggg]

he rest of the book of Revelation. The goats and tares are blotted out. Those who worship Satan are blotted out. At the GWT names blotted out. Some say names are added, or never there. They need to show those verses that say added, or never there.

But why did you pinpoint the seventh seal? The seventh seal does not mention anything about person's name being blotted out. The seventh seal introduces the trumpet judgments. Revelation 8.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, I have no idea of what you are trying to communicate.

The elect will be them who believe in Jesus, here on earth when the great tribulation is taking place. For their sake, the great tribulation will not be allowed to take it's course to it's ultimate end of all life on earth being eradicated.

No, it is not physical salvation. The elect are the church and gone at the 6th seal. This is spiritual salvation. So more will be resurrected to eternal life. The Millennium is a physical resurrection and physical reign. The church is a spiritual reign in the temple of God. One reason why amil say there is no Millennium is that very fact. The Millennium is not for the church. The church is enjoying the Sabbath or day of rest for 1000 years.

Amil do not think the Millennium is for any one, that is why they spiritualize it away, into not meaning anything. Post mil think things will just get better and better. SDA and others say it is desolation for 1000 years. They all have to change Revelation around and make it say things other than what is written. I am not sure at what point pre-mill started to teach the return with Christ. That is not found in Revelation, but an interpretation of the 144K, goats, and wheat. These humans only appear after the 6th seal, not before. In Revelation 7, the church is in the temple where they remain forever. Now there are thrones near the earth, but not on it. Billions of thrones? There are billions of stars. Like I have claimed, only after the 6th seal will it be known.

 

[keras]

keras, I don't think the conclusion you are making to apply the half hour to earth time is something that needs to be done.

Thinking as you do, makes Revelation 8:1 practically meaningless. As well as Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.

You are relying on that recent ESV translation. It seems to me that the translators chose a different wording to make their eschatology view sound right.

In the KJV.... translated in the 1600's did not have the same motivation.

For the umteenth time; the Bible version known as the most accurate and reliable, is the Revised English Bible, 1989.
The poor and error laden KJV Bible DOES also put the opening of the Sixth Seal differently; it says John 'beheld it being opened', which I contend denotes a future opening, whereas the first Five Seals; were in the past.

Like I have claimed, only after the 6th seal will it be known.

Right, exactly as we are informed:
Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

Just as Isaiah 29:9-12 says: people who believe false teachings, will be locked into them and made incapable of understanding the truths of the Prophetic Word.

 

[Douggg]

For the umteenth time; the Bible version known as the most accurate and reliable, is the Revised English Bible, 1989.

You should start annotating REB along with any scriptural quote or reference you make. You are using a translation that is not even available online - that others can read those verses in context.

 

[keras]

You should start annotating REB along with any scriptural quote or reference you make. You are using a translation that is not even available online - that others can read those verses in context.

The REB in is plain understandable English.
The problem lies in those who want scripture to support their false beliefs.

The REB can be downloaded on line; for a fee. I bought my copy from America for $1.

 

[Douggg]

The REB in is plain understandable English.
The problem lies in those who want scripture to support their false beliefs.

The REB can be downloaded on line; for a fee. I bought my copy from America for $1.

From this website...
What is the Revised English Bible (REB)? | GotQuestions.org



Revised English Bible - History
The Revised English Bible (REB) is not a translation, but a 1989 update of the New English Bible of 1970. As with its predecessor, it is published by the publishing houses of both Oxford University and Cambridge University. The REB is the result of both advances in scholarship and translation made since the 1960s and also a desire to correct some of what was seen by some as the NEB’s errors. Like the NEB, it is primarily aimed at the British and British-educated public, although it has some American users and admirers.

Revised English Bible - Translation method
The general translation method of the Revised English Bible is that of dynamic equivalence (thought for thought). The translation is intended to be gender-inclusive, to the extent that this is justified by the original language, although it does not take this to the same extent as the New Revised Standard Version or the Today’s New International Version. Like its predecessor, the REB includes the Apocrypha.

_____________________________________________________

Keras, thought for thought is not word for word. But, you are using it as word for word.

 

[Douggg]

The poor and error laden KJV Bible DOES also put the opening of the Sixth Seal differently; it says John 'beheld it being opened', which I contend denotes a future opening, whereas the first Five Seals; were in the past.

Where are you getting your quote?

Here is the quote from this site....(all the quotes I post are copy and paste from this site. the KJV Standard). REVELATION CHAPTER 6 KJV



12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

[Running2win]

I'll have to disagree that the breaking of the seals do not do anything. If I'm reading what you said correctly Doug. Sure the seals secure the scroll for sure, but as each one is broken or loosened in heaven by Jesus, the Bible says things happen on earth or heaven.

The picture of the scroll shows us all 7 seals (but probably would of had an impressed signet in the clay) must be broken or loosened in order to open the book. That they are in a sequence, and broken 1-7, confirms they are broken in that order. The living creatures tell the first four riders to come out and go, so this shows the actions do something.

We also know from the descriptions of what happens that they are broken in order. the 2nd seal allows war after peace, the third famine before death, the 4th death is loosed, the 5th shows that death is still continuing and a certain # of people still have to be killed by beheading, the 6th seal describes worldwide cosmic events and the sign of Jesus and God from heaven, the 7th is silence in heaven, then the scroll can be opened. You cannot open the scroll before you break all the seals because you would damage it.

Once the scroll is opened we read of trumpets and them being blown in order, and once the last trumpet is blown, the bowls are shown being poured in very quick succession, and the judgments get worse and worse from trumpets into the bowls. Then of course, Jesus is shown smiting the enemies that are gathered "at His footstool". Then the Kingdom where he reigns 1000 years.

Reading Revelation through, we get this basic structure with interludes or parenthetical chapters/sections that describe things that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

 

[Douggg]

I'll have to disagree that the breaking of the seals do not do anything. If I'm reading what you said correctly Doug. Sure the seals secure the scroll for sure, but as each one is broken or loosened in heaven by Jesus, the Bible says things happen on earth or heaven.

Jesus has already opened the seals on the book.

And when he progressed, opening the seals one at time, everyone present in throne room 2000 years ago was able to see more and more of things that would happen in the future.

This generation of ours is the one when all those things they saw of the future will take place.

 

[Running2win]

Jesus has already opened the seals on the book.

And when he progressed, opening the seals one at time, everyone present in throne room 2000 years ago was able to see more and more of things that would happen in the future.

This generation of ours is the one when all those things they saw of the future will take place.

Interesting. If that is true, that would mean the beasts in Daniels vision has already happened too, but it is clear it don't happen until the final 7 years in the end of days.

I see it more as a vision of what will take place (in the Spirit, write what you have seen), and there was also prophecy that would take place back then in the messages to the seven churches.

Why do you say it has already happened?

 

[Douggg]

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