Charting Revelation 6-19

[iamlamad]

The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are "in" the great tribulation.

The seals have already been "opened" in order to view what was in the book.

Now that it is known what is in the book, the task is to understand how everything fits.

The seals themselves having been "opened" for knowing what is in the book are not preventing anything from happening. Those being opened already is a foregone fact.

As a matter of reference, we say the 1st seal, the 2nd seal, and so on.

A timeline chart is a tool employed to put the events in order, one to another.

We should keep in mind, everything is completed IN THE VISION: but in realty only some of Revelation is over and done with. For example, all the seals were seen opened IN THE VISION, but in reality, only the first 5 are opened: the 6th starts God's wrath on earth. That is future to us today.

I will agree, a timeline shows us a picture - worth a thousand words. But when John numbers events, we don't need a timeline to know that 3 follows 2 and 2 follows 1.

 

[iamlamad]

I think you are misinterpreting the sixth seal, the wrath of the Lamb. It is, imo, referring to Jesus's about to take place vengeance for the martyred great tribulation saints in the fifth seal.

His appearance has to be something that terrifies the wicked of the world. I show Him with a sickle in his hand which I am getting from Revelation 14:14.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


View attachment 282618


I show the martyred great tribulation saints on my chart of the second half. And the 5th seal as well...



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Sorry, but NO TRUMPET can sound until all 7 seals are opened: the trumpets are written in the book. What you suggest is impossible.

Next, all the trumpets sound in the first half of the week, with the 7th marking the midpoint.

You are right to place the vials as late in the week: God will use the vials to "shorten" the number of days that will be days of great tribulation.

 

[iamlamad]

I think you are misinterpreting the sixth seal, the wrath of the Lamb. It is, imo, referring to Jesus's about to take place vengeance for the martyred great tribulation saints in the fifth seal.

His appearance has to be something that terrifies the wicked of the world. I show Him with a sickle in his hand which I am getting from Revelation 14:14.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

I think you are mistaken: God and John are still in the church age at the 5th seal. The church age will end with the pretrib rapture - followed immediately by the Day of the Lord. (the 6th seal).
It is the start of the DAY that terrifies people: they KNOW enough about THE DAY to know it will be God destroying the world and the sinners in the world. And God begins this destruction with the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. It will be unlike (far worse) than any earthquake up to that time. It will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

[iamlamad]

Yep.

If not, then WHERE IS HE now?

 

[Running2win]

If not, then WHERE IS HE now?

Made a mistake, meant No. I posted about that on the last page.

 

[Douggg]

"MYSTERY Babylon" the city of Jerusalem that deceives the entire world, will disappear and never be seen again. But the real, physical, city will be rebuilt and stand forever.

It is Mystery Babylon the great - not Mystery Jerusalem the great.

 

[Douggg]

We should keep in mind, everything is completed IN THE VISION: but in realty only some of Revelation is over and done with. For example, all the seals were seen opened IN THE VISION, but in reality, only the first 5 are opened: the 6th starts God's wrath on earth. That is future to us today.

lamad, you are using the wrong way to describe what you are intending.

All of the seals have been opened. What you are intending is that the 6th seal event has not begun yet, to begin God's wrath on earth. (Your view).

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, but NO TRUMPET can sound until all 7 seals are opened: the trumpets are written in the book.

....which we know about because all of the seals have been opened.

 

[Douggg]

I think you are mistaken: God and John are still in the church age at the 5th seal. The church age will end with the pretrib rapture - followed immediately by the Day of the Lord. (the 6th seal).
It is the start of the DAY that terrifies people: they KNOW enough about THE DAY to know it will be God destroying the world and the sinners in the world. And God begins this destruction with the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. It will be unlike (far worse) than any earthquake up to that time. It will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

lamad, you are applying the 2000 year span of the seals view, and not the 7 year 70th week of the seals view.

John in Revelation 5:4 wept because he was told he would see "hereafter" (of Revelation 2-3 the church age, if you want to call it that, in the message(s) to the church's), the events leading up to Jesus's Return. But when the book was presented for someone to open, initially no one was able to open the book. But then the Lion of Juda appeared in the throne room, to open the book.

The seals are not about the 2000 year span. It is about fulfillment of...

.... the mystery of God is His plan to correct all that is wrong in the world begun in the garden of Eden, and Satan and his third of the angels rebellion, the end of it.

...which is why them in heaven rejoiced when Jesus took the book to open it.

 

[grafted branch]

Ah, No. Just read that again. I thought you said is. Of course I do.

I believe in a literal MK where Jesus comes back to take possession of the earth at Rev 19, He reigns for 1000 years, great white throne judgment, then no more sin or death.

I believe different than Doug does on the timing of the resurrection/rapture, placing this at the sixth seal-which corresponds to Mat 24 (after the great Trib). This is the Pre-wrath viewpoint, his is Pre-trib.

I do not believe in a general resurrection- because we have Rev 20, which teaches us there are 1000 years in between-if that is what you are getting at. Paul also confirms this in 1st Cor 15, where there are 3 parts to the resurrection: Christ being the first fruits, they that are His at His coming/parousia, then comes the end (when) He hands over the kingdom to the Father. So I tie this third part of the resurrection with the resurrection of the unjust, at the great white throne.

Christ first has to reign over the nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2) before He can hand the kingdom over to the Father. He does this over on Mount Zion in Israel on the throne of his father David. He is not doing that now.

‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;

1The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.

3And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4And He will judge between the nations,
And will render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.

Ok, I too believe that Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. I think we both could agree that when Christ is on the white horse in Revelation 19, He is no longer sitting at the right hand of God.

What I’m trying to get at is how someone who has the view that the millennium is future accounts for Christ not being at the right hand of God.

According to Psalms 110:1 Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool. 1 Corinthians 15:25 says He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that death is an enemy and it’s the last enemy to be destroyed. I think we both can agree here that Christ must remain at the right hand of God until death is made his footstool.

My question is how can Christ leave the right hand of God and be on the white horse prior to a millennium that has death in it? Isaiah 65:20 seems to indicate that there will be death in the millennium. This is why I asked Douggg if “sitting at the right hand of God” must be spiritualized or if he thought Christ was not currently sitting at the right hand of God. So how do you account for this apparent conflict?

 

[Running2win]

Ok, I too believe that Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. I think we both could agree that when Christ is on the white horse in Revelation 19, He is no longer sitting at the right hand of God.

What I’m trying to get at is how someone who has the view that the millennium is future accounts for Christ not being at the right hand of God.

According to Psalms 110:1 Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool. 1 Corinthians 15:25 says He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that death is an enemy and it’s the last enemy to be destroyed. I think we both can agree here that Christ must remain at the right hand of God until death is made his footstool.

My question is how can Christ leave the right hand of God and be on the white horse prior to a millennium that has death in it? Isaiah 65:20 seems to indicate that there will be death in the millennium. This is why I asked Douggg if “sitting at the right hand of God” must be spiritualized or if he thought Christ was not currently sitting at the right hand of God. So how do you account for this apparent conflict?

Ps 110 and 2 are describing God gathering together the enemies, smiting, and then reigning- along with Rev 19, at the start of the MK. Jesus comes back and smites them and reigns on Earth. That is what reconciles the two. He then reigns on the Earth for 1000 years, the great white throne takes place and death is judged and thrown in the lake of fire, Jesus hands the Kingdom back to the Father, because there is no more enemies, no more judgment.

Notice when you read Psalm 110:1-2, together. He rules in the midst of His enemies. This is the 1000 year reign on the Earth. Sitting in heaven is not reigning. He has to take possession of the Earth and reign in Israel from Zion, the Mountain of God. This fulfills many OT prophecies.


1The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

 

[grafted branch]

Ps 110 and 2 are describing God gathering together the enemies, smiting, and then reigning- along with Rev 19, at the start of the MK. Jesus comes back and smites them and reigns on Earth. That is what reconciles the two. He then reigns on the Earth for 1000 years, the great white throne takes place and death is judged and thrown in the lake of fire, Jesus hands the Kingdom back to the Father, because there is no more enemies, no more judgment.

Notice when you read Psalm 110:1-2, together. He rules in the midst of His enemies. This is the 1000 year reign on the Earth. Sitting in heaven is not reigning. He has to take possession of the Earth and reign in Israel from Zion, the Mountain of God. This fulfills many OT prophecies.


1The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

OK, so this is what I’m having a hard time understanding; Psalms 110 states he is sitting at the right hand of God. If this is referring to a future millennial reign then God himself must also be on earth. Hebrews 10:12-13 states that Christ was seated after his sacrifice and remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool.

So when Christ is on the white horse in Revelation 19 is God with him? (is He still seated at the right hand of God?) And does Christ remain seated at Gods side from now until the end of the millennium?

 

[keras]

All of the seals have been opened. What you are intending is that the 6th seal event has not begun yet, to begin God's wrath on earth.

Just because we are told what the 7 Seals will do, is not their fulfillment.
Obviously the first Five Seals are being fulfilled, from when Jesus Ascended to heaven and opened them. We have the wars, famines, plagues and the martyrs continue to be killed for their Christian faith.

But what is described in Revelation 6:12-17 and in many other prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, awaits God's Appointed time to take place.

The Seventh Seal is a time gap; of 'about' 15-20 earth years. From the Sixth Seal event, until Jesus Returns.

 

[Douggg]

Just because we are told what the 7 Seals will do, is not their fulfillment.

The seals themselves don't do anything, except to secure the book from being opened. We use the term 1st seal, 2nd seal, and so on just for a reference.

If you are talking about the principle that just because that the seals have been opened already, that doesn't equate to the revealed events as having taken place yet.... then I can agree with that principle.

The Seventh Seal is a time gap; of 'about' 15-20 earth years. From the Sixth Seal event, until Jesus Returns.

Why would think that?

 

[Running2win]

OK, so this is what I’m having a hard time understanding; Psalms 110 states he is sitting at the right hand of God. If this is referring to a future millennial reign then God himself must also be on earth. Hebrews 10:12-13 states that Christ was seated after his sacrifice and remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool.

So when Christ is on the white horse in Revelation 19 is God with him? (is He still seated at the right hand of God?) And does Christ remain seated at Gods side from now until the end of the millennium?

It sounds like you are fixed on only one verse and not seeing the big picture. You see one tree but not the whole forest. The enemies are brought under His feet -and Rev 19 shows this, and then shows Him destroying them. That is when Jesus leaves heaven and goes to earth to destroy them. That is the fulfillment of Psalm 110 & 2, and Hebrews. All the nations are gathered then Jesus destroys them. God is not with Jesus at this time.

 

[grafted branch]

It sounds like you are fixed on only one verse and not seeing the big picture. You see one tree but not the whole forest. The enemies are brought under His feet -and Rev 19 shows this, and then shows Him destroying them. That is when Jesus leaves heaven and goes to earth to destroy them. That is the fulfillment of Psalm 110 & 2, and Hebrews. All the nations are gathered then Jesus destroys them. God is not with Jesus at this time.

I agree with nearly everything you said. But unless Revelation 19 occurs after the millennium it doesn’t seem to fit with 1 Corinthians 15:26-27 (he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet). If Revelation 19 occurs before the millennium it would mean that Christ is currently reigning since all enemies are not yet under his feet and after they are under his feet he no longer reigns. This would then seem to prevent a future millennial reign. So do you see Revelation 19 happening before or after the millennium?

 

[Running2win]

I agree with nearly everything you said. But unless Revelation 19 occurs after the millennium it doesn’t seem to fit with 1 Corinthians 15:26-27 (he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet). If Revelation 19 occurs before the millennium it would mean that Christ is currently reigning since all enemies are not yet under his feet and after they are under his feet he no longer reigns. This would then seem to prevent a future millennial reign. So do you see Revelation 19 happening before or after the millennium?

I don't think you are going to get this. If you were pre-mill you would. Here ya go.

Pre-Millennialism, Post-Millennialism or Amillennialism?

 

[grafted branch]

I don't think you are going to get this. If you were pre-mill you would. Here ya go.

Pre-Millennialism, Post-Millennialism or Amillennialism?

You might be right, and I’m not going to totally understand the premill position. I did look at the link but it didn’t mention sitting at the right hand of God. I have been studying this to try to eliminate or confirm some end time views.

Thanks for the good conversation.

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, you are using the wrong way to describe what you are intending.

All of the seals have been opened. What you are intending is that the 6th seal event has not begun yet, to begin God's wrath on earth. (Your view).

Part of the mystery is why God calls Jerusalem as "babylon," Egypt," and "Sodom."

 

[Douggg]

Part of the mystery is why God calls Jerusalem as "babylon," Egypt," and "Sodom."

I am agreeing with you on that part as far as Egypt and Sodom - because of Revelation 11:9. It is a mystery that the reader has to solve.

Which is more important in your opinion, for God fixing everything wrong in the world since the garden of eden -

1. destroying Jerusalem or
2. destroying Satan and his angels Kingdom

to apply as being Mystery Babylon the Great

?