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Featured Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Paul mentions signs of an apostle. Apparently apostles have many gifts. They are teachers, healers, prophets, speakers of tongues, etc...


    I dunno, what do you think?
     
  2. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Impractical Rat

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    Read verse 12:
    When was the last time a book looked at you face to face? No, the completeness definitely refers to the second coming of Christ.
     
  3. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    That scripture is often taken out of context. Look at it again. What do they believe in? Signs and miracles? Nope

    John 20:9 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
     
  4. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
     
  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello W2L.

    Thanks for the reply.

    The ministry of the evangelist is mentioned below.

    Ephesians 4:11
    11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.

    If the ministry of the apostle is finished, which according to Paul seems to be the case.
    We still have the other ministries to contend with, obviously teaching, pastoral, and evangelism ministries are still in effect. Without these ministries the church would not exist.

    So obviously, not all of the ministries of the Holy Spirit have passed.

    The ministries and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are both given for the very same purpose.

    1 Corinthians 13:8
    Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

    If knowledge has passed, then cessationism is true.
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I'm not talking about new doctrines. you may disagree with a church's position on the gifts/manifestation of the Holy Spirit and that can be a different conversation. What I'm talking about is using scripture to develop our doctrines of the church including those that teach how the Holy Spirit operates. If a church has missed the mark then should we not use scripture to affirm the correct position? Cessationist use as you say "the experience of the church" to teach doctrine the NT does not support and this is not sola scriptura. What other things do you want to cross out?
     
  7. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don’t have any personal experience of charismatic gifts but I’ve grown wary over time of overly neat little arguments that purport to explain it all away. I’ll be interested to see what this post brings up.
     
  8. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    What gifts do we see today? At the very least you would think evangelist would be needed. Then teachers. However teachers usually teach theology that divides the body rather than uniting it. Tradition is divisive. Paul actually warns against teachers, other than preaching the Word, and says they will lead people astray. 2 Timothy 4:3
     
  9. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:16-18

    Its quite clear, these signs shall follow those who believe.
     
  10. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    The gifts are only needed until we all come to the knowledge of Christ. No longer being children carried away by every wind of doctrine. The bible also warns against following teachers.

    Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

    13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    And who are we seeing face-to-face in verse 12?

    It's rather odd that if Paul were really talking about the completion of the canon, that the Church was mighty nonchalant about getting it compiled and validated. It took a heretic even to first raise the concept.
     
  12. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

    13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

    1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
     
  13. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    this described the offices of the church, some may be controversial but pastors and teachers? have they too ceased? have we reached this "measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?"
     
  14. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Paul describes a time when people will follow teachers and turn away from the truth. The bible warns against false teachers.

    To answer your question

    Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

    1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
     
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello W2L.

    Two categories, ministries and gifts.

    Evangelism is a ministry of the Holy Spirit, but knowledge is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 13:8
    Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

    If knowledge has passed, then cessationism is true.

    If the gift of knowledge has not passed, then cessationism is a heresy.
     
  16. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    I believe that we live in perilous times, where people will depart from the true faith, and heap to themselves teachers, to tell them what they want to hear. I dont follow teachers, i follow the word, which warns me against teachers.
     
  17. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I recognize the similarity however Ephesians 4 is quite specific where 1 Corinthians 13 is not. If Paul intended to be this specific he could have done so with a masculine adjective "perfect" and an implied noun (man) instead he uses the word as a substantive and abstractly. in Ephesians it's the same word for perfect/mature but it's an adjective directly modifying a noun that is known and it's gender agrees with this noun. They may be similar but Paul goes out of his way to separate them when he doesn't need to.
     
  18. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Jesus speaks of faith and actions of the church, especially those empowered by the HS require a measure of faith.
     
  19. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    I dont quite understand
     
  20. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Relevance to my post?
     
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