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Featured Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    However, the gifts are used to validate the ministries.
     
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  2. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Continualism and Sola Scriptura do not mix well, I see evidence to support this in every false religion, perversions of Christianity and abuses in evangelical Christianity. New relevations, New visions, "the Lord told me", sigh.
     
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  3. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Impractical Rat

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    Cessationism is based on the premise of Sola Scriptura, which says that I only listen to scripture and never special revelation. Scripture validates special revelation. You've got a problem, there.

    I don't listen to George, because I only listen to Bob. Bob tells me to listen to George, but I refuse, because I strictly follow Bob (which is obviously false, or I would listen to George).

    If you are cessationist, then you are necessarily not an adherent of Sola scriptura, by direct logical contradiction. You can post all you want about the ills brought upon the faith by special revelation, but none of that changes anything. We were commanded to test all prophecy. You know that, if you're a Sola scriptura kind of guy. There is only one way to do that. The alternatives are to either accept all prophecy uncritically, or reject all prophecy uncritically. Both of the alternatives are equal opposites, meaning that both cause the same degree of damage. One is a positive behavior and causes positive damage that everyone can see, and the other is a negative behavior and causes damage not readily seen. It is a preventative harm. You can't see the damage that you have done, because you cannot show the good that you have prevented. You can sit back and point to your equal and opposite heresy and denounce them for the damage they've caused, while your own damage remains veiled.

    Test all prophecy. If you reject it outright, then you're not obeying scripture. If you accept it too freely, then you're not obeying scripture.
     
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  4. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Apologetic_Warrior.

    I hope your not claiming that cessationism in itself, has never abused or corrupted Christianity. That would be a very risky claim to make.

    Once again, if the gift of knowledge has ceased, then cessationism is true.

    If the gift of knowledge is current, then cessationism is simply quenching the Spirit.
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    same greek word (teleios) but one is abstractly used and the other is used specifically to describe a noun (man). Greek adjectives must agree with their head noun in gender, number, case and this is what we see in Eph 4:12 "perfect man" the word "perfect" is teleios and is masculine, singular, accusative (past tense) which agrees with the head noun "man". 1 Cor 13:10 is an adjective used without a head noun. It's gender is neuter so you would expect it then to point to a neuter noun but it's case is nominative which turns this adjective in an abstract noun, perfect turns into "perfection" or complete turns into "completeness". What does this mean? it means Paul uniquely makes this word an abstract where he could have easily made it a masculine gender better linking this with the "perfect/mature man" of Eph 4:12. This word would more consistently point to something befitting of an abstract event and although theoretically could point to anything I don't find a "mature man" a good fit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    absolutely but the answer to these "perversions" is not to cross it out from the bible. We should use scripture to correct rather than just ignore them all together and create a different set of perversions.
     
  7. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Nah, no problem here. The problem comes when claims of special revelations do not agree with previous special revelation, that is the Bible. For the sake of staying on topic arguments over canon, would not be beneficial. Continualism has more often than not created mass confusion, used by false prophets to subordinate the Scriptures, used by well meaning Christians to justify their own views and words. In this day and age, a person is wiser to err on the side of caution, as to be deceived by sensationalistic false teachers.
     
  8. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Hi, no I would not make that claim, however I dare say the abuses of continualism by far outweigh cessationist abuses. Although I understand the line of reasoning, let's try not to make strawmen of the cessationist position. I have not come across any cessationist that would even try to argue that all gifts have ceased, so it's a moot point.
     
  9. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Apologetic_Warrior.

    Thanks for your reply.

    You replaced your previous claim with another claim.

    I don't think that we could honestly make a call, on which position has done more damage.
    Both groups have been responsible for major damage to the reputation of Christianity.

    If even one gift is still available, then all gifts are obviously still available, because the perfect has not yet arrived. There is no other way to understand this point.
     
  10. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Hi, sorry but I fail to see where I changed a claim. Anyway...

    Not that it's anyone's business, I will reveal a bit about myself. Personally I have been on both sides of this topic. I grew up with the continualism which is part of the Assemblies of God belief system. I especially held firm to the system/framework/ body of teachings of the Assemblies of God teachings from the ages of 20-28ish. I understand the arguments the Scriptures used to make them and so on. You could say I was on the fence for several years on the topic, and at some point I slipped over the fence embracing the cessationist position. However, even so, I cannot fully shake my roots, I like to be cautionously optimistic and I try to avoid continualism so as to avoid making judgements one way or the other, I do not wish to even be put in such positions. In modern times, it has even become a divisive issue among Reformed believers, there are Calvinististic continualists, and I have considered them. However, for whatever reasons, I can only conclude from all of my life's experiences that God closed the continualist door for me. Of course all of this is from a personal perspective to give context for whatever else I've mentioned.
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    scripture tells us to test all spirits, the gifts of the spirit should always have a product of eidifcation to the church and give glory to God. Abuse is not an excuse to reject the teachings of the bible, certainly the Corinthian church Paul writes to seem to be over zealous with certain gifts and Paul corrects them. There is no reason why we should come to a place where we no longer test or come to a place where our testing deems everything as false. Paul concludes his correct of the gifts with "So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order" why should this be any different today? Prophetic messages can exist post-NT without them conflicting scripture. If you see abuse don't tear the pages out of the bible but rather use those pages to correct and teach proper use.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    it seems paul had similar issues with the Corinthians church, his response from abuse of these gifts was not to sweep them under a rug but rather to still encourage their use just more responsibly saying "earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order".

    There are no doubts that there is abuse in the charismatic church who often like the Corinthians church are over zealous with a specific set of gifts and adding "in the spirit" at the end of any verb to validate it. How could they encourage such behaviour and still affirm sola scriptura? This seems to be heavily weighted on experience over scripture. But how can we reject these gifts and still affirm sola scriptura? Is not citing that these gifts "left" the church years back also not in the same spirit of experience over scripture? Lets take our human experience out of it and teach doctrines with scripture.
     
  13. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Sigh, there is a diffrence between SolA Scriptura and SolO Scriptura, learn it please.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, it seems to me that Pentecostal Christians have made it be a doctrine. But no, it is not a doctrine that anyone else recognizes, so there is not really a controversy over it...except that it is precious to Pentecostals and essential to their POV.

    Certainly, but it is not the case that anyone involved has ignored or discarded Sola Scriptura, which is what I understood you to be saying. What we are dealing with in this matter is simply a disagreement among people, all of whom subscribe to Sola Scriptura, concerning the proper interpretation of the Scripture.
     
  15. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    :) Sola Scriptura is great as long it is tempered with Tradition and Reason... :)
     
  16. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    by your own admission scripture does not point to the gifts ceasing as cessationist claim age so if scripture teaches the gifts but does not teach in their ceasing by what authority do you claim these gifts have ceased? Doctrines are teachings of the church or denominations within the church. If a church teaches the gifts are either in use or not in use this is a doctrine and these doctrines, whatever they may be, should be confirmed through scripture if they are not yet still are taught this is not sola scriptura
     
  17. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    There is great variation among Pentecostals as a whole, but in many circles it is the focal point of, the center of all teaching, THE doctrine of doctrines, in some cases a hindrance to proclaiming the Gospel. This is but one small reason why I had to jump ship. Paul is clear about how things should be IN the Church.

    Well said brother, well said.
     
  18. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    What can tradition add to scripture?
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Because they did cease. I remember making this point earlier.

    The verse you cited earlier about tongues and cessation must not, therefore, be correctly interpreted in your church.
     
  20. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    It is no doubt one or the other.

    The passage specifically says only 3 spiritual gifts cease, and only two of those are due to 'completeness' coming - prophecy and words of knowledge. Both of those are revelatory, so it makes sense that their replacement would also be revelatory.

    If it was the 2nd coming of Christ or the eternal state, it wouldn't just be the revelatory gifts that cease. All the gifts would cease - there would no longer be a requirement for teachers, evangelists, pastors, etc. Yet only the 3 gifts are mentioned.

    After those gifts have ceased, v13 says faith, hope, and love would remain. Those virtues are certainly present in the church age. But how can faith and hope remain once the return of Christ has become a reality? Scripture says "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1) and "hope that is seen is not hope; who hopes for what he already sees?" (Rom 8:24).

    But not in this passage there isn't. The return of Christ is something that has to be 'read into' the text.

    Eph 2:20 makes it clear that apostles and prophets were only given for the foundation of the Church. Foundations are only laid once, at the start of a building. Few people believe that apostles are still around today - that is one thing most agree has ceased - so why not also prophets as the verse says?
     
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