• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jan 3, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Hi Jason, I was raised Cessationist, and even believed that when someone spoke in tongues they were actually blaspheming God. It wasn't until I was in my 20's that I discovered scripturally that tongues wouldn't cease as I thought in 1 Corinthians 13 until we see Christ face to face. In fact I was using 1 Co. 13 in a letter to a Pentecostal girl to show her that they had ceased, but when I looked further to find more proof and read to the end of the chapter, I was stopped dead in my tracks and the Spirit showed me the actual truth. I never finished writing the letter. That was 1971.

    From there I started studying and seeking the whole truth. Then in February 1977 I truly repented for the first time in my life and it was then I saw a vision, and heard God's voice. What an introduction to the supernatural life of living in the Spirit! 8 sentences that seared right through me that I'll never forget!

    Before then I never had an answer to prayer. After that I always received an answer to prayer. I've seen miracles, and recently prayed for my neighbors dog who broke its back and was paralyzed from the hips down. She got around on her stomach pulling herself along with her front legs with her back legs trailing behind her. I called and asked if I could come over that night and pray for her. I went and commanded her back to be healed in Jesus name. The next day my neighbor called and Penny (the dog) was walking around on all fours, and within a week was running and chasing squirrels again.

    Jason, when I read 1 Corinthians 13:12 and the Spirit showed me the truth of it, I went from an unbelieving Cessationist to a believing Spirit-filled Christian. What I have found is, for Cessationists it take the Spirit to show the truth after a lifetime of unbelief. No one can convince them but the Spirit.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What verse or passage talks about how blood being not a believer's hands for warning other believers in regards to that they must believe in the continued operation of the gifts of the Spirit? I must have missed that one in the Bible.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Thank you for the kind approach and appeal for your case 1st Century Lady. As I have stated before, this topic is a bit of a mystery to me. I am open to the possibility and that I could be wrong. I also have a few Charismatic brothers and sisters as friends in Christ (of which I consider you one of them). But I have not witnesses what my Charismatic friends have done. On the other hand, I also feel the verses on Cessationism are very solid and they make a lot of sense to me right now. But I will of course pray and ask God to reveal the truth to me if I am on the right path. This will of course be a continual prayer and a continual seeking of the Scriptures. But again, thank you for your kind words. I believe this is something that has to be revealed by GOD to me in His timing (Whether it be Continuationism or Cessationism).

    May God bless you, 1st Century Lady.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I think experience can change a person's view on the Scriptures (Without them even realizing it). I never had any experiences in the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. I am grateful to the Lord for this because I would prefer to have a solid foundation based on God's Word by faith first. I also tend to be more cautious. For after all, my soul is at stake.

    Jesus said blessed are those who believe and yet do not see. A miracle is something you see. Granted, again, I am not saying God does not do miracles today. I know He does. But does the LORD still operate in the same way He did back like He did with the early church? To my knowledge, I do not see any evidence of this. You believe otherwise, and I only have your word for it. Scripture says we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD or not.

    There are some that teach that you must speak in tongues in order to show that you have the Holy Ghost. I don't agree with this.

    In any event, I think it is best to agree to disagree in love.
    I think my talking about this with you is only going to get you upset.
    Only the Lord can show you what I have learned with the Scriptures on this topic in His timing (if that is His will).

    May the Lord bless you.


    Side Note:

    I am replying to you here out of respect to keep your thread on topic.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    But I said before that I believe it is possible that God may be operating like He did with the early church. I am not claiming that you are not operating by God's power. As I said before, I would have to witness what you and your church does and I would have to pray about it and search the Scriptures on it some more. I am a 90% Cessationist. The other 10% makes room for if I am wrong. For I would not want to speak out against the actual working of GOD if I am wrong.

    I am glad to hear that. Not that I want to get off topic, but when you say "faith," does that include "works of faith"?

    Right, and I only say this for those in whom I have seen via so far by videos. The shaking of heads, and screaming on the ground is something that is not of GOD. Of course, your church may be different. I don't know. I have not seen or witnessed it.

    Only God can reveal this to me. I cannot possibly know something I do not actually know. I am not Omniscient like God.

    I understand that you believe that. I simply do not know because I have not seen it for myself. I would also need to continue to keep praying on this topic, too. But in either case, I would not speak out blindly against all who claim to be working by God's power. I would need to witness it, and pray about it and then search the Scriptures.
     
  6. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    I'll pray for you too
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I believe a person can be healed by prayer. I also believe that we can rebuke and cast out demons. The difference I am talking about is miraculous gifts. The healing by one's own shadow, and speaking to a person and they are instantly healed, or healing by others touching your clothes, the raising of the dead, a mist of darkness blinding a man, etc. This is something that we do not witness today. Granted, again, this may be happening somewhere; I just have not seen it.
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    @Jason0047 Maybe seeing what the Spirit showed me will help. The key word is "then." In other words WHEN these will cease. If you believe in the second coming of Christ, you will recognize what FACE TO FACE means.

    8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is complete has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

    ...12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then FACE TO FACE. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Good night all.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I explain this in Post #8. In Post #101, I have made quite a few connections between 1 Corinthians 13:9-12, and James 1:21-24, as well.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Good night.

    Blessings to you in the Lord.
     
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    I'll look to see what you believe, but I feel like the blind man who can now see, trying to convince the "Cessationist" that God is not on vacation. LOL

    13 They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. 14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”

    16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”

    Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.

    17 They said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?”

    He said, “He is a prophet.”

    18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. 19 And they asked them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?”

    20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

    24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.”

    25 He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.”

    26 Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

    27 He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?”

    28 Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. 29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.”

    30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

    34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Blessings to you in the Lord.
     
  14. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

    +481
    Uruguay
    Christian
    Single
    I know few pentecostal churches, and most are good, some only wants money from people, but that are not true pentecostal churches, they just imitate and say miracles happen to make people give money. They are just scammers, not a true church.

    I received the Holy spirit in one, if this testimony is worth something to you, i went to church because i was grateful of something that had happened to me, i didn't expect much, God was a distant thing, i did not think he could interact with people, but as the reunion started to my surprise the Holy spirit started to fill me, it was incredible, so now i knew that God can get close and interact with people, i have received Jesus when i was 4 but forgot about God until that day. My life changed because of that, i wanted from then on to please God, and know him.

    I had other experiences with God, but that experience alone made me want to stick with God no matter what, and nobody can tell me that God doens't exists or is not a 'personal' God. Or that true pentecostal churches are bad because i received the Holy spirit in one, God is not going to support a sect.

    One tip for you: don't listen much to John Mcarthur. He is wrong about pentecostals and is going to fill your mind with suspicion about them incorrectly.
     
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

    +446
    United Kingdom
    Baptist
    Married
    UK-Conservative
    I know a Baptist pastor who was in the pentecostal church for fifteen years, During that time, he said he attended hundreds of "healing meetings" but never saw one healing.
     
  16. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

    +540
    Canada
    Charismatic
    Married
    C'mon, broski, let's get with the times ...
    For some decades now, most (all?) mainline churches
    have (finally) come to the realization of the truth:
    "that which is perfect" refers to Jesus, not to the Bible!
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

    "And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

    "As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

    "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

    2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
    (1 John 3:2-3).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    To all:

    [​IMG]

    "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

    16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

    Jesus said,
    "...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

    This would be us today with the Bible.
    We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).


    Side Note:

    The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    When we compare 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1, we see that there are similarities.

    #1. Perfect is present in both.

    "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10).

    "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).​

    #2. Mirror/Glass is present in both.

    "For now we see through a glass, darkly;"
    (1 Corinthians 13:12).​

    23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).​

    #3. Looking into a Mirror/Glass is present in both.

    "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

    We see through a glass, but we can see our reflection in this glass and become face to face with ourselves (i.e. the reflection of our face, and our real face).​

    23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).​

    #4. Love is present in both.

    "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).

    "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).​

    #5. Being immature (a child, knowing in part, or forgetful) is present in both.

    Children lack knowledge. They know in part.

    11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:11-12).

    James talks about how one who does not do God's Word is like a person who looks into a mirror and forgets what he looks like. They know in part, too. They may know certain things, but they cannot remember what they look like in the mirror. They are like a child if they do not obey God's Word.

    22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:22-25).

    Children can sometimes be forgetful, too.​

    In addition, we also have to take a step back and remind ourselves that 1 Corinthians 13 is the famous love chapter. How did Jesus say we are to love Him? Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). These commandments are found within His Word. James says,

    3 "...the trying of your faith worketh patience.
    4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:3-4).​

    "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I was checking out more points on Cessationism vs. Continuationism. The more I have studied and listened on this subject, the more I lean towards the fact that Cessationism is more true.

    There are two things I have discovered last night.

    Discovery #1. Speaking in foreign tongues was a sign of judgment to the Jew.

    At the tower of Babel, God judged men and confounded their language because of their sin. They were all speaking babel to each other and could not understand one another. At Pentecost, God had reversed this curse for his church. They all could speak and hear each other in their own languages and Peter interpreted to others what was happening. There was edified meaning hat led to many Jews accepting the Lord.

    See, to the Jew, the speaking in foreign tongues meant "judgment." Not only did it remind them of the narrative of the Tower of Babel, but it reminded them of the Exile and other times when enemy nations would conquer them. The enemy that conquered them spoke in a foreign tongue. It was judgment upon them.

    So tongue speaking is speaking "judgment" to the outsider of the church body.
    This is what it meant to the Jew. They would need to have an interpreter present to give the meaning to the outsider so that they could believe. There would need to be meaning also for the church to hear "judgment" of improvement upon their own lives in living more devout and correctly for the Lord.


    Discovery #2. Continuationists are not consistent with Continuationism & They Believe in Some Forms of Cessationism.

    Many will say that all the gifts are for today, and the Lord does not change. It is true, the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but that does not mean He operated the same way in both covenants or the same way in all time periods.

    The problem is that some Continuationists (While stating that the gifts are for today), will admit that there are no apostles "Capital A" like there was in the early church. Some will also say that prophecy is not adding new words to the Bible and they believe in Sola Scriptura. So the gift of tongues applies, but not the gift of prophecy of new revelation. So it is not consistent. They believe in a form of Cessationism. Many will even admit that they do not see the same miracles that the early church did. Yet, they believe these gifts are in operation. Yet, they do not happen for them. They are not being consistent with their belief by their own words. If the early church operated that way, then they should be able to do the same.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,150
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    All I can say is search the Scriptures. Be objective and look at both sides of the issue objectively by Scripture alone and do not be biased based on an experience or experiences. I believe God can operate in our lives using imperfect people sometimes. For example: A person can be saved by hearing prosperity preacher on TV. That does not mean the prosperity preacher is correct in all of what he teaches.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...