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Featured Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Cessationism:
    Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

    (Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

    Important Note:
    Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in His life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).​

    1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

    2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

    3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."

    4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.

    5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

    6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).

    7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).

    8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show

    9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

    10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:​

    (a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
    (b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
    (c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
    (d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
    (e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
    (f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
    (g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
    (h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
    (i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
    (j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
    (k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
    (l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
    (m) " " confused about the collection. 16
    As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.​
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  2. Timothy416

    Timothy416 Active Member

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    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 1Cor13:8-10

    It appears knowledge must also have passed away
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Good day to you SPF:

    May God's Grace, peace, and love be upon you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope all things are going well for you in the Lord.

    Anyways, to get down to business to what you said here:

    Well, I believe the problem here in America in regards to the faith is that they believe in Once Saved Always Saved or a form of Easy Believism, but that is another topic for another thread. If you want to discuss that issue, please see my recent thread here on that topic (if you are interested).

    In other countries, we may see the operating of miracles more because they are not out in camera view like here in the US where everyone has smart phone to record such a thing and put it on the internet as a display for the whole world to see. God wants us to walk by faith and trust in Him and He does not want us to walk by sight. The men who were fed by the miracle of many loaves of bread and fish desired more miracle food and they did not desire to walk by faith in Jesus Christ and seek salvation in Him.

    Also, I am not saying there is no such thing as miracles anymore. I believe God can do miracles today but it is by prayer and by God's choosing and it is not by gifting specific individuals with the power to heal or the power to do miraculous gifts. We do not see anyone today operating on the same level of miracles that we see with the early apostles. If you believe otherwise, then please show me where these believers are. Remember, they have to heal in the same exact way and do so 100% of the time like the early apostles in the beginning of their ministry in spreading the gospel. Even Paul did not appear to retain his power to heal towards the end of his life.

    Anyways, I believe there are also false miracles today. Granted, I am not saying that the miracles that operated in your life were not genuine. I am just saying I do not know you, your beliefs, and nor have I seen the miracles and the way you moved and operated when the miracle took place. Today, there are false miracles that take place. There are people who shake their heads at insane speeds and scream on the ground and bark like dogs. This is not of God. For God is not the author of confusion. So we have to be careful that when we claim to be operating by miracles, we have to warn others against the false miracles that are taking place today (if you believe that your miracles are different from the others who appear to operate in a similar way in the new age or Kundalin movement).

    In any event, please check out my points for Cesssationism within the OP; And may God bless you this fine day.

    With loving kindness to you in Christ,

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Yes, the gift of knowledge (i.e. the writing of NT Scripture) has ceased.
     
  5. Timothy416

    Timothy416 Active Member

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    Lets put the whole segment up:

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    When completeness comes, then what is in part disappears, not before. When does completeness come? When Paul would know fully even as he is fully known. Paul does not yet know fully!!! He will when he attains to Heaven
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    No. Paul is writing as per under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. He is being led to write about a time of when that which is perfect comes. This is revealed to us in James 1. James 1 also talks about:

    (a) Something that is perfect.
    (b) A mirror.
     
  7. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    To me, tongues are totally different as to how people claim they are these days compared to the days of the Apostles. Today they are just 'sounds' where as in the Apostles days they were 'languages'.
     
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Also, what is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13? Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

    "And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

    "As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

    "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

    2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
    (1 John 3:2-3).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    To all:

    [​IMG]

    "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

    16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

    Jesus said,
    "...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

    This would be us today with the Bible.
    We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).


    Side Note:

    The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
     
  9. Timothy416

    Timothy416 Active Member

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    In my view, if more accepted the gifts of the Spirit as described in Corinthians, they would have far less doctrinal error. I disagree with your thinking
     
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    I am not saying that all believers are not operating biblically by tongues today, but from my experience with others, they do operate in an unbiblical way in regards to tongues.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Good day @Jason0047. I read the personal and witnessed (by others) account of @SPF and your OP. I have not personally witnessed such an extraordinary (by Western First World standards) miracle like the one which healed @SPFs foot. In fact I'm not a Pentecostal who speaks in tongues. Even so I am not a cessationist but one who is cautious but optimistic. Why? Because in the NT the Gospel always came with the Power of God when first preached to new peoples. Always. There were miracles in the Acts of the Apostles along with the preaching. Again, the Gospel always comes with the Power of God this includes the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit turning such a worm as me dead in my trespasses and sins making alive in Christ Jesus, Praise be to His Holy Name.

    That's why I believe our missionaries who witness these miracles. It is because they are bringing the Gospel to nations who have never heard of Jesus Christ for the first time, or for the first time in many decades or generations.

    Oh, I should mention. My good friend and fellow Pro-Life debater @SPF is no "mountain snake handler" but a very accomplished apologist defending the defenseless and most vulnerable among us.
     
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Scripture will explain and confirm scripture, so there is no need to jump through hoops to twist scripture into a human reasoning, and false doctrines such as cessationism designed to cripple the Church. Guess who authored that theory. Who does not want us to have the whole armor of God and doesn't want anyone praying in the Spirit?

    Matthew 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    This is the standard in a COVENANT. Nothing inside the covenant ends until all is fulfilled. What ended the Old Covenant was God in the form of Jesus. His death ended the Old Covenant.

    Romans 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    Likewise, nothing inside the New Covenant will end until all is fulfilled, and the chapter the OP uses of 1 Corinthians 13 tells us WHEN these things mentioned will cease - when we ourselves are perfect and see Him FACE TO FACE. That is not reading about Him, but the second coming. Everything about our charismas and authorities in the covenant is written in the New Testament, shall we now willfully disregard our inheritance because we have the will and testament in our hands and go live in a shack, or as some, with our heads in the sand?

    Prove to me that Jesus has indeed come in the flesh again, that I've missed the second coming of Christ which ends the covenant, or that my body is now resurrected, and I'll stop speaking in tongues.

    No where in the New Testament does any apostle refer to their own letters as being "the perfect." But much is said by them about holiness as being perfection. Once perfected, we will no longer be children thrown by every wind of doctrine.

    Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’

    And, so what is the perfect? It is the resurrection of the dead at the coming of Christ of all those who have been made complete and holy, when we see Christ FACE TO FACE. It is the end result of the purifying of our characters. The Bible is only a book unless you read it and do what the Word says. And Christ has given us gifts to strengthen us on our journey.

    Matthew 5:48
    Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    Hebrews 7:11
    [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

    Hebrews 7:19
    for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Hebrews 7:19
    for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Hebrews 7:28
    For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

    Hebrews 11:40
    God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

    Hebrews 12:23
    to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Matthew 19:21
    Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Matthew 19:21
    Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

    Matthew 21:16
    and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise’?”

    Luke 6:40
    A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.

    John 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

    Philippians 3:12
    [ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

    Colossians 1:28
    Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

    Colossians 3:14
    But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

    Colossians 4:12
    Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

    Hebrews 12:23
    to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    James 1:4
    But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

    Hebrews 2:10
    [ Bringing Many Sons to Glory ] For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Hebrews 5:9
    And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

    Hebrews 6:1
    Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    Hebrews 7:11
    [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

    Hebrews 9:11
    [ The Heavenly Sanctuary ] But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

    Hebrews 10:1
    [ Animal Sacrifices Insufficient ] For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

    Hebrews 10:11
    [ Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified ] And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins...14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

    James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    James 1:25
    But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

    James 2:22
    Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

    James 3:2
    For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

    1 Peter 5:10
    But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

    1 John 2:5
    But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

    1 John 4:12
    [ Seeing God Through Love ] No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

    1 John 4:17
    [ The Consummation of Love ] Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

    1 John 4:18
    There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Does his church speak in tongues only when an interpreter is present?

    Does a whole bunch of people in his church speak in tongues all at the same time?
     
  14. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    You mean like they did on the Day of Pentecost?
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Ask him.
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    That was a one time unique event. It was the beginning of the church. This was the baptism of the Holy Ghost as promised. A fulfilled event in prophecy. In fact, Peter quotes OT Scripture as a fulfillmment of this event. This was not to be the standard of how they were to speak in tongues. We know this because 1 Corinthians 14 gives us the standard every day instructions on how to speak in tongues during the time of the early church.

    26 "...Let all things be done unto edifying.
    27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; " (1 Corinthians 14:26-28).
     
  17. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    A one time event? That is an opinion. Do you honestly believe God would allow something so out of order to start His Church? Did He change His mind?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Apparently after reading his posts he told you his church does not speak in tongues.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Kind of busy this morning and he wrote a lot. If he said that recently to me, I honestly missed it. So does he believe tongues have ceased?
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    God can make changes. In the Old Covenant, you could not eat unclean animals. Yet, in the New Covenant, you can. Jesus first told his disciples to preach to Isreal, and not to go the Gentiles yet. After the resurrection, this changed. Jesus is also the embodiment of change, too. God had never before came into this world by way of a human birth except by Jesus.
     
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