Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[1stcenturylady]

@Jason0047

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Prophecy is one of the gifts that is understood by those present, thus edifying all.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

He who speaks in the sign manifestation of tongues of Mark 16:17 does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

Understood for the profit of all.

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Difference between what is done in your prayer closet, and what is done in church

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues,

All who believe can speak with tongues, Paul wishes that all gathered believed and became informed. (vs. 23 and Mark 16:17)

but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues,

For the churches sake, seeing as tongues is not understood by man, it is better in church to prophesy.

unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

In church the gift of tongues must be interpreted for the profit of all. The interpretation will be from God, and not to God as the sign of tongues, speaking to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching.

... 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

Tonuges, neither the sign nor the gift alone are able to be understood by anyone of any language.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Again, no language can understand tongues, so inside church use prophecy or....

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

The supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues is given to interpret supernatural tongues that no man knows.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Praying in the Holy Spirit aligns us with God's perfect will, for the Spirit knows our weaknesses and we do not know how to pray as we ought, we through our spirit partner with the Holy Spirit for His will to be done out of obedience.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

In my prayer chamber I will both pray and sing God's perfect will without my understanding, trusting that God's purpose will be done, and at other times as in church I will pray and sing with my understanding for the profit of all.

16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Again clarifying that tongues cannot be understood by any man without the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Paul prays without ceasing and prays in the Spirit God's perfect will for all the saints in the churches he started, but when he is with them, he speaks plainly to them and teaches them the gospel.

20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

21 In the law it is written:

“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

says the Lord.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

The prayer language of Mark 16:17 is between you and God, it is not for the purpose of speaking to man. The sign to the unbeliever will get the result of thinking you are out of your mind. It is a judgment. It is not literally only to Jews, as some think, but to spiritual Israel as well. This type of sign is like that said of Jesus in Luke 2:34. "a sign which will be spoken against." Thus to the believers that have the sign of tongues they are grateful and enjoy it; but to those of who are unsaved or uninformed, it is anathema.

24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

The same result as the sign of Jesus. Luke 2:35
that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Prophesy is adding new holy words from God. Currently, the Bible is the only holy words we are to receive. Revelation 22:18-19 talks about how we are not to add to God’s Word.

Prophecy is one of the gifts that is understood by those present, thus edifying all.

Right. Why edify all? It is because we are to regard others as more esteemed than ourselves (See Philippians 2:3).

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

He who speaks in the sign manifestation of tongues of Mark 16:17 does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him.

Verse 2 is giving you the definition of tongue speaking among the church. For it says he speaks to God and yet nobody understands him. Speaking unto God is prayer. So this is a public prayer and it is not a private prayer because verse 2 says nobody understands him.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

Understood for the profit of all.

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

While I am not a fan of doing original language studies, in this case it is necessary. For if you were to do a Strong’s search at the website called “Blue Letter Bible,” you would discover that the Greek word for the English word “edifies” appears as the English word “build” in other parts of the Bible. So it is saying if one speaks tongues (without an interpreter) is building up themselves. They are essentially telling others... “Hey, look at me!”

Anyways, I will have to respond to the rest of what you had written later.

May God’s goodness be upon you today.

 

[1stcenturylady]

building up themselves. They are essentially telling others... “Hey, look at me!”

In essense, that is what the Corinthians were doing, "look at me." But building your spirit and edifying yourself, is not being puffed up as your cynical mind is looking at it. Edifying yourself is not a bad thing. Being out of order is.

Jude 1:
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What the Corinthians were doing, seeing as all the believers could speak in tongues, is they were all speaking at once, drowning out anyone who had a prophetic word. Prophecy comes first. And tongues should always give way to someone with a word of prophecy.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Jason is actually right on "heresy". "Heresy" is actually a technical term for something that violates officially established dogmatic teaching. (Teaching that is not just an interpretation of the Bible but a precisely defined doctrine, or something that goes against the established teaching of a particular church body). In order for Jason teaching to be "heresy" he would have to be under the authority of your particular Church Body (A member, or a minister) and be violating whatever your official faith statement or other official teaching is. If that were the case, then you could put him on trial for "heresy" and if found guilty you could take action (excommunicate him, defrock him, burn him at the stake etc.).

Besides this there is secondary use of the term relating to people who teach against official doctrines of Christianity relating to the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed that are mostly agreed upon other Christians outside of Catholicism and the Orthodox churches. (were talking about things like the Trinity, Christ being "True man and true God" etc.).

Well yes although there have been cases where the heretics were burned at the stake by those who were heretical in their response to heresy. Paul did deliver one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. And Peter did commit Ananias and Sapphira to the observation of the Holy Spirit upon which they fell over dead. Of course these( Paul and Peter) were men full of the Holy Ghost and discernment . They did not have to arrest anyone , put them on trial , etc. Quite frankly by the time of the "orthodox church " when these creeds and teachings were fleshed out /developed ..after Tertullian and others , there were power plays at work ( albeit out of fear of true heresy from the clerics but out of fear of divisions from the emperor Constantine ) . I do however find it odd that many of those who agreed on things considered orthodox theology such as the trinity , still murdered each other and others . ( Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves ...not as hard to understand as the trinity but from the Word of God who became flesh and dwelt among us . ) Do you see the paradox ?
I am fearful that on judgement day , there may be many zealous and orthodox who have never perfected love ...In eternity and in the Kingdom, God may forgive our misunderstanding of complex doctrinal truths but to misunderstand love ? I don't know .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In essense, that is what the Corinthians were doing, "look at me." But building your spirit and edifying yourself, is not being puffed up as your cynical mind is looking at it. Edifying yourself is not a bad thing. Being out of order is.

Jude 1:
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What the Corinthians were doing, seeing as all the believers could speak in tongues, is they were all speaking at once, drowning out anyone who had a prophetic word. Prophecy comes first. And tongues should always give way to someone with a word of prophecy.

No. “Building yourselves up” is plural and not singular. “Yourselves” is plural. “Yourself” would be singular. They were to build each other up. Pride goes before the fall. Building up one another in the most holy faith is what we as believers need to do for other believers. We encourage them to fight the good fight of faith and remind them of God’s Word.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No. “Building yourselves up” is plural and not singular. “Yourselves” is plural. “Yourself” would be singular. They were to build each other up. Pride goes before the fall. Building up one another in the most holy faith is what we as believers need to do for other believers. We encourage them to fight the good fight of faith and remind them of God’s Word.

If Jude was only speaking to one person, then "yourself" would be correct. But he is speaking to a church, more than one, so "yourselves" is each one of them, individually. How can you help others if you, yourself, are not built up. Praying in the Spirit builds up their own spirit. No one is with someone else 100% of the time. Do you believe tongues was only for speaking in church with interpretation and no other time?

And prophecy is not just for the writing of God's word. Sometimes it is personal prophecy that doesn't apply to everyone. Did you know that? That has never ceased. If all prophecy ever spoken was Scripture, then our Bible would weigh a ton.

I sense this feeble attempt at swatting at gnats is because you have no desire at all to open yourself to the Spirit, and accept His gifts. So be it unto you and your arrogant lack of child-like faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If Jude was only speaking to one person, then "yourself" would be correct. But he is speaking to a church, more than one, so "yourselves" is each one of them, individually. How can you help others if you, yourself, are not built up. Praying in the Spirit builds up their own spirit. No one is with someone else 100% of the time. Do you believe tongues was only for speaking in church with interpretation and no other time?

And prophecy is not just for the writing of God's word. Sometimes it is personal prophecy that doesn't apply to everyone. Did you know that? That has never ceased. If all prophecy ever spoken was Scripture, then our Bible would weigh a ton.

I sense this feeble attempt at swatting at gnats is because you have no desire at all to open yourself to the Spirit, and accept His gifts. So be it unto you and your arrogant lack of child-like faith.

No. “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;” (Ephesians 6:18) (KJV).

“Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God’s consecrated people).” (Ephesians 6:18) (AMPC).

 

[1stcenturylady]

No. “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;”
(Ephesians 6:18) (KJV).

“Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God’s consecrated people).” (Ephesians 6:18) (AMPC).

Paul calls speaking in tongues, praying in the Spirit.

BBL But if you are not open to the Spirit, then this might as well end here. 1 Corinthians 14:38.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul calls speaking in tongues, praying in the Spirit.

No. He says no such thing. He argued against speaking in tongues without an interpreter. The understanding is unfruitful. Also tongues are for unbelievers and not believers. Tongues without an interpreter wrongfully edifies or builds up a person.

What advantage do you gain by praying something you don’t understand? God is not the author of confusion.

 

[SinoBen]

Yes what your describing sounds a lot like what I believe and as described in theological terms as "theosis" (Eastern Christianity) and is the meaning of controversial “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

Nah... I think Psalm 82 can be read plainly without invoking mysticism.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No. He says no such thing. He argued against speaking in tongues without an interpreter. The understanding is unfruitful. Also tongues are for unbelievers and not believers. Tongues without an interpreter wrongfully edifies or builds up a person.

What advantage do you gain by praying something you don’t understand? God is not the author of confusion.

In church!

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

It is entirely different rule by yourself. Pray that you might interpret what you are praying, but don't forbid yourself praying either way. I hope you are not saying you believe tongues was only for use inside church with interpretation, and not privately, with or without interpretation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In church!

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

It is entirely different rule by yourself. Pray that you might interpret what you are praying, but don't forbid yourself praying either way. I hope you are not so unlearned as to believe tongues was only for use inside church with interpretation, and not privately, with or without interpretation.

Verse 18 does not say that he is speaking tongues outside the church. No actual verse specifically talks about speaking in tongues in private (See again verse 2; For it is the key to understanding on this point). 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about tongues by public prayer. Verse 19 is not a change of scenario from verse 18. Paul is criticizing the Corinthians. It is like a commanding officer rebuking one of his subordinates. For example: The commanding officer could say to one of his unit men, “Now, son, I have shot an army rifle more than this entire unit put together, but in the army you have to shoot with accuracy and not as a means to waste ammo.”

Does that mean the commanding officer was referring to shooting an army rifle outside the military? No.

The same is true with Paul. Just because Paul spoke more foreign languages (tongues) than the Corinthians does not mean he was speaking in tongues outside of church.

While I understand that verse 18-19 can be read in the way that you suggest, it runs contrary to the rest of Paul’s points on how we are only to speak tongues if we have an interpreter. For again, Paul says this about speaking in tongues:

1. Speaking in tongues without an interpreter means that the understanding is unfruitful.
2. Tongues are for unbelievers (not for believers in private prayer).
3. Let all things be done to edify others (which is not possible with tongue speaking without an interpreter).
4. He would rather speak 5 words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding (Which should tell you that Paul is not for gibberish speaking with no understanding).
5. God is not the author of confusion.

Etc.

Just re-read 1 Corinthians 14 again. Paul’s whole argument is against speaking in tongues without an interpreter.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Verse 18 does not say that he is speaking tongues outside the church. No actual verse specifically talks about speaking in tongues in private (See again verse 2; For it is the key to understanding on this point). 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about tongues by public prayer. Verse 19 is not a change of scenario from verse 18. Paul is criticizing the Corinthians. It is like a commanding officer rebuking one of his subordinates. For example: The commanding officer could say to one of his unit men, “Now, son, I have shot an army rifle more than this entire unit put together, but in the army you have to shoot with accuracy and not as a means to waste ammo.”

Does that mean the commanding officer was referring to shooting an army rifle outside the military? No.

The same is true with Paul. Just because Paul spoke more foreign languages (tongues) than the Corinthians does not mean he was speaking in tongues outside of church.

While I understand that verse 18-19 can be read in the way that you suggest, it runs contrary to the rest of Paul’s points on how we are only to speak tongues if we have an interpreter. For again, Paul says this about speaking in tongues:

1. Speaking in tongues without an interpreter means that the understanding is unfruitful.
2. Tongues are for unbelievers (not for believers in private prayer).
3. Let all things be done to edify others (which is not possible with tongue speaking without an interpreter).
4. He would rather speak 5 words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding (Which should tell you that Paul is not for gibberish speaking with no understanding).
5. God is not the author of confusion.

Etc.

Just re-read 1 Corinthians 14 again. Paul’s whole argument is against speaking in tongues without an interpreter.

What does "tongues are a sign to the unbeliever" mean to you? What type of sign? Positive or Negative?

Also, when Paul says,
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

"yet in the church" is a contrast between in church and in private.

Tongues without interpretation builds the spirit, but only interpretation is also fruitful for the mind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What does "tongues are a sign to the unbeliever" mean to you? What type of sign? Positive or Negative?

Also, when Paul says,
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

"yet in the church" is a contrast between in church and in private.

Tongues without interpretation builds the spirit, but only interpretation is also fruitful for the mind.

While I love the KJV and regard it as God's divinely inspired Word (that is without error), I believe that this is a case where the KJV is using 1600's English (that has influenced other Modern Translations). So verses 18-19 are not written in our Modern English (Whereby you are trying to force Modern English rules of grammar upon 1600's English grammar). The rule of interpretation is to look at the context as a whole. The whole chapter is dedicated to pointing out WHY you cannot speak in tongues without an interpreter (and it does not give us any exceptions to speak in tongues while not in the church). Yet, the Continuationist proponent takes verses 15, and 18-19 (1 Corinthians 14:15, 1 Corinthians 14:18-19) out of context to the rest of the chapter to say that Paul is talking about private prayer. However, it is public prayer in the church because verse 2 clearly says this:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God [i.e. prays]: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Corinthians 14:2).​

Note: Words in purple within brackets above is my commentary to the text.

#1. He that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks unto God (What is another way of speaking unto God called? Prayer. So if the rest of the chapter talks about prayer, it is referring to this point here in verse 2 by the fact that is public prayer because "no man understands him" as they speak unto God).

#2. No man understands him if this person speaks in unknown tongue unto God. This means that they are praying publicly. This is why the rest of the chapter is in reference to public prayer because verse 2 sets the standard or context of the word "prayer" for 1 Corinthians 14.

Side Note:

I would like for you to ask yourself a question. Please, you do not have to respond to that question here (For I am not seeking the answer to your question). I know it is a personal question. But ask yourself, "Did I come to believe in "tongues by private prayer" from my church or did I learn of this first on my own and determined the truth for myself ahead of time based on Scripture? I say this because sometimes a church can influence to do things that is not actually in the Bible. Then, when we get set in our ways with that church, we form a habit, pattern, and friends that we would have to leave if we see something different in Scripture and decide to side with the truth of God's Word really says. So I would pray.... with the understanding on this topic (just in case by some slim 1% chance that you may be wrong on this point). I say this in love and do truly hope that you may see where I am coming from.

May God's goodness and blessings be upon you this fine day.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

 

[1stcenturylady]

While I love the KJV and regard it as God's divinely inspired Word (that is without error), I believe that this is a case where the KJV is using 1600's English (that has influenced other Modern Translations). So verses 18-19 are not written in our Modern English (Whereby you are trying to force Modern English rules of grammar upon 1600's English grammar). The rule of interpretation is to look at the context as a whole. The whole chapter is dedicated to pointing out WHY you cannot speak in tongues without an interpreter (and it does not give us any exceptions to speak in tongues while not in the church). Yet, the Continuationist proponent takes verses 15, and 18-19 (1 Corinthians 14:15, 1 Corinthians 14:18-19) out of context to the rest of the chapter to say that Paul is talking about private prayer. However, it is public prayer in the church because verse 2 clearly says this:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God [i.e. prays]: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Corinthians 14:2).​

Note: Words in light blue within brackets above is my commentary to the text.

#1. He that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks unto God (What is another way of speaking unto God called? Prayer. So if the rest of the chapter talks about prayer, it is referring to this point here in verse 2 by the fact that is public prayer because "no man understands him" as they speak unto God).

#2. No man understands him if this person speaks in unknown tongue unto God. This means that they are praying publicly. This is why the rest of the chapter is in reference to public prayer because verse 2 sets the standard or context of the word prayer for 1 Corinthians 14.

Side Note:

I would like for you to ask yourself a question. Please, you do not have to respond to that question here (For I am not seeking the answer to your question). I know it is a personal question. But ask yourself, "Did I come to believe in "tongues by private prayer" from my church or did I learn of this first on my own and determined the truth for myself ahead of time based on Scripture? I say this because sometimes a church can influence to do things that is not actually in the Bible. Then, when we get set in our ways with that church, we form a habit, pattern, and friends that we would have to leave if we see something different in Scripture and decide to side with the truth of God's Word really says. So I would pray.... with the understanding on this topic (just in case by some slim 1% chance that you may be wrong on this point). I say this in love and do truly hope that you may see where I am coming from.

May God's goodness and blessings be upon you this fine day.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

You didn't answer my questions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You didn't answer my questions.

You didn't address my points with Scripture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You didn't address my points with Scripture.

You first.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You didn't answer my questions.

One more time. This is very simple.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says, "speaketh not unto men, but unto God"

"speaks not unto men, but unto God" = prayer.

Yet, verse 2 is talking in reference to public prayer because it says this, "for no man understandeth him;" (1 Corinthians 14:2).

This sets the theme or context for the whole chapter on the word "prayer."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You first.

I made my points repeatedly already since yesterday and they have went unanswered. Please address them and I will answer your questions (Which came later the next day).

 

[1stcenturylady]

One more time. This is very simple.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says, "speaketh not unto men, but unto God"

"speaks not unto men, but unto God" = prayer.

Yet, verse 2 is talking in reference to public prayer because it says this, "for no man understandeth him;" (1 Corinthians 14:2).

This sets the theme or context for the whole chapter on the word "prayer."

I agree, so?