Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[1stcenturylady]

I made my points repeatedly already since yesterday and they have went unanswered. Please address them and I will answer your questions (Which came later the next day).

If you can't answer them, fine. I'm going back to bed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree, so?

The point here is that it is talking about public prayer in verse 2 and not private prayer because while they speak unto God in verse 2, nobody can understand this person who speaks in tongues. In other words, it sets up the context or standard for the word "prayer" for the whole chapter. This is public prayer and not private prayer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you can't answer them, fine. I'm going back to bed.

All-Nighter? I pray you get rested well and that you may be strong in the Lord after you sleep.

Blessings to you.

Side Note:

I am happy to answer, but I just feel it is fair that you answer my points first. Why do you think the point on "public prayer" in verse 2 does not apply to the rest of the chapter? This is the point I was trying to make for a while now.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The point here is that it is talking about public prayer in verse 2 and not private prayer because while they speak unto God in verse 2, nobody can understand this person who speaks in tongues. In other words, it sets up the context or standard for the word "prayer" for the whole chapter. This is public prayer and not private prayer.

It is both.
I will pray in the Spirit - private
I will pray with the understanding (interpretation) - public

What does "tongues are a sign to the unbeliever" mean to you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is both.

What does "tongues are a sign to the unbeliever" mean to you?

We need to first address my point here. 1 Corinthians 14:2 sets the standard that it is talking about public prayer only. It cannot be both because Paul does not refer to how he is praying either outside the church or praying behind closed doors alone within his closet. Verse 15 is clearly talking about public prayer because it is in close context to verse 13.

So this means that you are down to just verses 18-19 as your sole interpretation or defense on tongues in private prayer. That is not good hermeneutics. Verses 18-19 can also be read in the way that I suggested (Which I explained to you using the commanding officer in the military example).

 

[1stcenturylady]

We need to first address my point here. 1 Corinthians 14:2 sets the standard that it is talking about public prayer only. It cannot be both because Paul does not refer to how he is praying either outside the church or praying behind closed doors alone within his closet. Verse 15 is clearly talking about public prayer because it is in close context to verse 13.

So this means that you are down to just verses 18-19 as your sole interpretation or defense on tongues in private prayer. That is not good hermeneutics. Verses 18-19 can also be read in the way that I suggested (Which I explained to you using the commanding officer in the military example).

I will pray in the Spirit - private
I will pray with the understanding (interpretation) - public

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will pray in the Spirit - private
I will pray with the understanding (interpretation) - public

No.

6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." (Matthew 6:6-13).

Verse 6 is talking about normal prayer because tongues was not in existence yet. We are to pray to the Father in secret so that we may be rewarded openly. But how can you be rewarded if you did not ask for anything and you just mindlessly chatter? Is that not similar to the vain repetition? Verse 7 says we are not to use vain repetition. How is repeating words with no real thought or meaning (vain repetition) any different than speaking words you do not know? Do you catch yourself repeating certain phrases that you do not know? If so, then that is vain repetition. Verse 8 says the Father knows what you have need of before you ask him. So this is not private tongues prayer but it is private prayer with the understanding. You will not find a verse in the Bible that clearly says you can pray in tongues in private. Paul says God is not the author of confusion. Do you receive understanding when you pray in tongues in private? Or it just confusing words that you do not know? Again, God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, does anyone's church today follow the Biblical mandate of speaking in tongues in public according to 1 Corinthians 14:27?

"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret." (1 Corinthians 14:27).

Most churches I have seen via by video do not do it in this way.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We need to first address my point here. 1 Corinthians 14:2 sets the standard that it is talking about public prayer only. It cannot be both because Paul does not refer to how he is praying either outside the church or praying behind closed doors alone within his closet. Verse 15 is clearly talking about public prayer because it is in close context to verse 13.

So this means that you are down to just verses 18-19 as your sole interpretation or defense on tongues in private prayer. That is not good hermeneutics. Verses 18-19 can also be read in the way that I suggested (Which I explained to you using the commanding officer in the military example).

Actually, verse 2 is talking about private prayer, not public. The Corinthians were using their prayer language openly, thus causing confusion.

Now, tell me what you believe the meaning is to tongues being a sign to the unbeliever.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, verse 2 is talking about private prayer, not public. The Corinthians were using their prayer language openly, thus causing confusion.

Now, tell me what you believe the meaning is to tongues being a sign to the unbeliever.

No. There is no such thing as tongues by private prayer. God is not the author of confusion. Verse 2 is setting the theme for the whole chapter that Paul is referring to public prayer and not private prayer. Nowhere does Paul speak of private prayer. He does not say, "when I pray in private in tongues...."; Nor does he say, "when I am outside of the church and pray in tongues by myself...." etc.

Did you come to your belief in unknown tongues by private prayer by way of experience? Or did you come to your belief by first desiring to seek the truth by way of prayer using the Word of God?

Again, you don't have to answer. The question is for yourself primarily. I think if you answer this question honestly, you will discover the true motive behind why you are reading 1 Corinthians 14 in the way that you do.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No. There is no such thing as tongues by private prayer. God is not the author of confusion. Verse 2 is setting the theme for the whole chapter that Paul is referring to public prayer and not private prayer. Nowhere does Paul speak of private prayer. He does not say, "when I pray in private in tongues...."; Nor does he say, "when I am outside of the church and pray in tongues by myself...." etc.

Did you come to your belief in unknown tongues by private prayer by way of experience? Or did you come to your belief by first desiring to seek the truth by way of prayer using the Word of God?

Again, you don't have to answer. The question is for yourself primarily. I think if you answer this question honestly, you will discover the true motive behind why you are reading 1 Corinthians 14 in the way that you do.

We will just have to agree to disagree. Besides, you refuse to answer my question.

18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mean they aren't suddenly speaking in the tongues of the other tribes of the House of Israel and the other Mediterranean nations?

That was a unique event in history (i.e. the birth of the church), which is also known as Pentecost. The devout Jews who spoke in tongues also all understood each other (except those who were not devout Jews). It was not confusion. Later, Paul specifies the standard way you are to pray publicly in the church using tongues. He says you need to have an interpreter, otherwise you are to keep silent. For God is not the author of confusion. Today, we see nothing of the Biblical use of tongues that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14. Today, the shaking of the heads (in a blurry uncontrollable fashion), and the barking like animals and screaming on the ground is not of God. The unusual quick snap of the head seen at certain Pentecostal churches is the same quick head snaps we see in Eastern religions when they are possessed by certain spirits.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Today, the shaking of the heads (in a blurry uncontrollable fashion), and the barking like animals and screaming on the ground is not of God. The unusual quick snap of the head seen at certain Pentecostal churches is the same quick head snaps we see in Eastern religions when they are possessed by certain spirits.

I agree about the shaking of the head as in Kindulini. The only person I know that did that was the mistress of Todd Bentley, whom he left his wife for and married. She has a seducing spirit. And Todd has fallen from grace.

The barking like dogs was human, nothing demonic. I know how that started and it is just telling God they were willing to do anything He asked, even bark like dogs.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree about the shaking of the head as in Kindulini. The only person I know that did that was the mistress of Todd Bentley, whom he left his wife for and married. She has a seducing spirit. And Todd has fallen from grace.

It's much more wide spread than you believe.

The barking like dogs was human, nothing demonic. I know how that started and it is just telling God they were willing to do anything He asked, even bark like dogs.

There may be fakers, but it is also a demonic thing, too.. I have seen it on video, etc.

Here is a good testimony of an ex Charismatic:

Interview with a Former Charismatic

I see 99% of tongue speaking as being forced or faked in some way. It is not a real language that can be recorded and analyzed as a real language.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It's much more wide spread than you believe.

It would only be followers of Todd Bentley then. It is very disturbing to me as well.

There may be fakers, but it is also a demonic thing, too.. I have seen it on video, etc.

I don't believe that for a second.

I see 99% of tongue speaking as being forced or faked in some way. It is not a real language that can be recorded and analyzed as a real language.

That is your unbelief talking...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It would only be followers of Todd Bentley then. It is very disturbing to me as well.

Actually, he is a part of NAR (The New Apostolic Reformation Movement). This movement is identified by it's certain beliefs and practices.

There are others who are part of NAR.

• Carol Arnott
• John Arnott
• Mike Bickle – Founder of International House of Prayer (IHOP)
• the late William Branham
• Paul Cain
• Nolan Clark
• Randy Clark
• Kim Clement
• John Crowder
• John Dawson
• Joy Dawson
• Jack Deere
• Lou Engle – Founder of The Call
• Francis Frangipane
• Ted Haggard
• Bill Hamon
• Steve Hill
• Mike and Cindy Jacobs – Founders of Generals International
• John Paul Jackson
• Bill Johnson – Head Pastor of Bethel Church / Jesus Culture
• Bob Jones
• Rick Joyner - Founder of Morning Star Ministries
• John Kilpatrick
• Patricia King
• George Otis Jr
• Chuck Pierce
• Michael Pierce
• Sid Roth
• Dutch Sheets
• Ed Silvoso
• Tommy Tenney
• Richard Twiss
• C. Peter Wagner – Founder of Global Harvest Ministries
• John Wimber
• .. and many more!

I don't believe that for a second.

You don't think possessed people cannot growl or bark like dogs? Really? There are many testimonies of demon possessed people who have barked like dogs. So your unbelief does not undo this particular reality that has happened through out history. Demons have been referred to as beasts (animals) in the Bible, and one of the enemy's major pawns during the End Times is called the "Beast" (according to Scripture).

That is your unbelief talking...

Not at all. Unless you can prove that private tongue speaking is a real and an intelligible language, than there is a 99.9% chance that this is merely a form of speaking gibberish non-sense. Jesus had a problem with vain repetition in prayer. Much of this gibberish is speaking repeated gibberish words and Jesus said that those who speak in vain repetition think they will be heard for their much speaking (Which is a condemnation of such a practice). Private prayer tongue language is not a doctrine clearly taught in the Bible, and only 2-3 verses taken out of context supports this practice. Only in the early church we see public prayer in tongues being done and it was done by two or three people and there was one who interpreted. 90 some percent of your Charismatic groups do not even operate in this way.

What I would like for you to do is record your sessions and the sessions of others. If you find that you and or others are repeating words over and over again, this is vain repetition. You are speaking words over and over without any real meaning. This is vain repetition in prayer and Jesus clearly condemned this practice.


Note: I say this because others (who were ex Charismatics) have said that they have repeated words over and over before in their tongue speaking.


Source used:
SOJ4

 

[1stcenturylady]

Actually, he is a part of NAR (The New Apostolic Reformation Movement). This movement is identified by it's certain beliefs and practices.

There are others who are part of NAR.

• Carol Arnott
• John Arnott
• Mike Bickle – Founder of International House of Prayer (IHOP)
• the late William Branham
• Paul Cain
• Nolan Clark
• Randy Clark
• Kim Clement
• John Crowder
• John Dawson
• Joy Dawson
• Jack Deere
• Lou Engle – Founder of The Call
• Francis Frangipane
• Ted Haggard
• Bill Hamon
• Steve Hill
• Mike and Cindy Jacobs – Founders of Generals International
• John Paul Jackson
• Bill Johnson – Head Pastor of Bethel Church / Jesus Culture
• Bob Jones
• Rick Joyner - Founder of Morning Star Ministries
• John Kilpatrick
• Patricia King
• George Otis Jr
• Chuck Pierce
• Michael Pierce
• Sid Roth
• Dutch Sheets
• Ed Silvoso
• Tommy Tenney
• Richard Twiss
• C. Peter Wagner – Founder of Global Harvest Ministries
• John Wimber
• .. and many more!

You don't think possessed people cannot growl or bark like dogs? Really? There are many testimonies of demon possessed people who have barked like dogs. So your unbelief does not undo this particular reality that has happened through out history. Demons have been referred to as beasts (animals) in the Bible, and one of the enemy's major pawns during the End Times is called the "Beast" (according to Scripture).



Not at all. Unless you can prove that private tongue speaking is a real and an intelligible language, than there is a 99.9% chance that this is merely a form of speaking gibberish non-sense. Jesus had a problem with vain repetition in prayer. Much of this gibberish is speaking repeated gibberish words and Jesus said that those who speak in vain repetition think they will be heard for their much speaking (Which is a condemnation of such a practice). Private prayer tongue language is not a doctrine clearly taught in the Bible, and only 2-3 verses taken out of context supports this practice. Only in the early church we see public prayer in tongues being done and it was done by two or three people and there was one who interpreted. 90 some percent of your Charismatic groups do not even operate in this way.

What I would like for you to do is record your sessions and the sessions of others. If you find that you and or others are repeating words over and over again, this is vain repetition. You are speaking words over and over without any real meaning. This is vain repetition in prayer and Jesus clearly condemned this practice.


Note: I say this because others (who were ex Charismatics) have said that they have repeated words over and over before in their tongue speaking.


Source used:
SOJ4

I can bark too. Woof, woof. Am I possessed too? Do you believe that list of esteemed godly people are demon possessed?

BTW, have you seen any creative miracles of healing like eyes where only hollow eye sockets were there before? They have. Is that of the devil? Is your religion alive with signs following, or dead?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just because there is widespread misuse of all the gifts of the Spirit for personal gain in terms of reputation and money, power and control of believers, doesn't mean that the genuine Spiritual gifts are not in operation today. You might be right - they may be operating with individuals and groups outside of the public gaze so that all you see on Youtube are examples of the misuse of them.

It is interesting that a well-known healing evangelist in the 1960-1970s who had genuine healing in his services, had secular Federal Court judges to be beside him at the healing line to audit the process, and they found that the healings were totally genuine and there was nothing fraudulent about them. These Federal Court judges were not part of the evangelist's organisation and were totally unbiased, and most were not even Christian believers! So the reality of genuine healing, overseen by secular judges brings a reasonable doubt about the veracity of Cessationism.

Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that finds it.
The Charismatic movement or the Pentecostal movement seems to be widespread and everywhere.
It does not seem like the narrow way; Although, again, I could be wrong and there could be a small factions or groups (maybe yours) that may be operating by God's power like they did in the early church (that I am simply not aware of). Doing many wonderful works in His name is not the benchmark of abiding in God (See Matthew 7:22). Obedience to His commands is (See 1 John 2:3-4). The greatest two commandments is to love God and love your neighbor.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have not produced one single Scripture that God has said that He intends to withdraw the spiritual gifts. If it has not come from the mouth of God Himself, then there is no Scriptural proof that Cessationism is anything else but a demonic deception and an insult to the Holy Spirit.

You can't cobble a set of unrelated Scriptures to try and prove your point. I think you are trying to convince yourself that Cessationism is true and continuance is false and you are using the old deceptive chestnuts produced by religious spirits to do it.

I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink. If I am correct on these verses (and I believe I am), only God can reveal the truth to you about them (in His timing).

May the Lord's peace be upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the verses don't teach Cessationism at all. They have been twisted out of context to make it appear so. This is the way that the devil quotes Scripture to deceive people into disempowering the Holy Spirit and substituting a religious spirit that is mimicking the Holy Spirit.

That's not how a proper discussion or debate with Scripture works. You cannot paint a broad brush stroke and essentially say..."no" by not explaining at least a few of the verses I presented.