Tongues & the cessationists.

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[Alithis]

First, the title of your thread has the word "Cessationists" in it, which makes it sound like you desire to talk about Cessationists (i.e. Cessationism).

Second, how is it dishonest to post something I believe to be true? Sure, I could be wrong, but I do believe that these verses are teaching Cessationism.

Three, if you do not want anyone to talk about Cessationism, then I will respect that. I can simply move the conversation to another thread.

In any event, may the Lord's goodness be upon you tonight.

the Op is centered solidly on what the scripture says.
Its quoted
Highlighted
Put in bold .
I present what it Does say.

Every attempt to refute it has centered on
Opinion
Dissecting the words into meaningless ambiguity
Or, more opinion.

Im not sure why the attemp.
My attitude is to look at what is written and say. "Ok ..that IS what is written so i must change my understanding and mind (i must repent)
Never should we attempt to change what is written to match our opinion.

 

[GingerBeer]

You know as well as I do that typing out tongues like that for the purpose of proving that they are nonsense is twisting it out of its proper worship context and therefore would not prove anything either way. Any further debate would be pointless.

Do you mean that the "words" change their meaning and syntax when typed out in a post? If these words had meaning when spoken then why would they lose it when typed?

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

They are essentially the same when typed as when spoken. Bible quotes say the same thing when quoted in a worship meeting as when typed in a post even if the one typing is an atheist or a Christian or something else the words will not change. That ought to be the same for messages in tongues too if they come from God. But if they are gibberish then they will still be gibberish when typed in a post and that too means that their lack of coherent meaning is constant.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What verse or passage talks about how blood being not a believer's hands for warning other believers in regards to that they must believe in the continued operation of the gifts of the Spirit? I must have missed that one in the Bible.

Those who teach that the present use of the gifts of the Spirit are fraudulent are actually insulting God the Holy Spirit and in turn are insulting Jesus and the Father. This is very serious and indicate a wrong spirit that may shut a person out of heaven.

I am not saying that those who don't choose to speak or pray in tongues will be shut out of the kingdom of God, because a genuine converted believer is saved by grace through faith in Christ.

It is the person who teaches that genuine believers who manifest the gifts of the Spirit are fraudulent, implying that what they are doing is not of the Holy Spirit, and so are saying that they are manifesting through a spirit that is not of God. There are only two spirits operating - The Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit. Those who accuse present day believers who speak in tongues, practice the gifts of healing, prophecy, words of knowledge and wisdom of being frauds and liars are saying that their manifestations are of the devil. Jesus was quite clear about the consequences of attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to that of the devil.

You need to be quiet clear about this - either you believe that present day believers, who are genuinely manifesting the gifts of the Spirit are doing it through the Holy Spirit, or that you believe and teach that they are doing it through another spirit.

This does not include those who are actually misusing the gifts. I am saying that when genuine believers are manifesting them appropriately and in the Spirit with the outcome that people are pointed to Christ, are saved, and healed, that they are doing it truthfully and not fraudulently.

So those who are accusing genuine believers manifesting the gifts in the Holy Spirit as frauds are doing it through a demonic deception and are teaching through a demonic lying spirit, and there are consequences for that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you mean that the "words" change their meaning and syntax when typed out in a post? If these words had meaning when spoken then why would they lose it when typed?

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

They are essentially the same when typed as when spoken. Bible quotes say the same thing when quoted in a worship meeting as when typed in a post even if the one typing is an atheist or a Christian or something else the words will not change. That ought to be the same for messages in tongues too if they come from God. But if they are gibberish then they will still be gibberish when typed in a post and that too means that their lack of coherent meaning is constant.

The devil is quite capable of producing counterfeit tongues just for the purpose that you are using them right now. He does it to confirm deceived people in their demonic deception so that they will depart from sound doctrine to believing doctrines of devils.

Cessationists are the type of false prophets and teachers that Jesus warned us about. You will find that when the AntiChrist appears, Cessationists will team up with him and be part of his false religious system.

 

[Alithis]

To all.
I wont pretend.. Im just reporting off topic posts that rant onto topics outside the op.
Nothing personal but whats the point of a thread if its dragged off into 100 topics

 

[GingerBeer]

The devil is quite capable of producing counterfeit tongues

People are capable of talking gibberish and that is a far more likely source for the gibberish "message" in the post. There's no need to invoke demons or Satan to explain people babbling in nonsense gibberish sounds.

just for the purpose that you are using them right now. He does it to confirm deceived people in their demonic deception so that they will depart from sound doctrine to believing doctrines of devils.

It is way too easy to hang on to bad theology by accusing any who disagree with being victims of demonic activity and demonic deception. That way there is no need for evidence, credible examples, and well thought through teaching about the subject of tongues. As long as people are willing to settle for "if you don't agree then you are under demonic influence" as their defence.

Cessationists are the type of false prophets and teachers that Jesus warned us about.

Jesus warned about people claiming special revelations. He is alleged to have said

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. 8But all these things are the beginning of travail.​

And John warns against false prophets saying

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the'spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. 4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.​

The message is to be aware of false prophets but it is not cessationists who claim to be prophets is it? It is from among the people who claim to have various revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit that you find those who claim to be prophets.

You will find that when the AntiChrist appears, Cessationists will team up with him and be part of his false religious system.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To all.
I wont pretend.. Im just reporting off topic posts that rant onto topics outside the op.
Nothing personal but whats the point of a thread if its dragged off into 100 topics

The thing we both agree on is that Cessationism is a satanic deception and I am starting to think that it may require a deliverance ministry to set them free from it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

People are capable of talking gibberish and that is a far more likely source for the gibberish "message" in the post. There's no need to invoke demons or Satan to explain people babbling in nonsense gibberish sounds.


It is way too easy to hang on to bad theology by accusing any who disagree with being victims of demonic activity and demonic deception. That way there is no need for evidence, credible examples, and well thought through teaching about the subject of tongues. As long as people are willing to settle for "if you don't agree then you are under demonic influence" as their defence.


Jesus warned about people claiming special revelations. He is alleged to have said

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. 8But all these things are the beginning of travail.​

And John warns against false prophets saying

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the'spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. 4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.​

The message is to be aware of false prophets but it is not cessationists who claim to be prophets is it? It is from among the people who claim to have various revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit that you find those who claim to be prophets.

I can use exactly the same Scriptures to support my view that Cessationism is a demonic doctrine and it comes from the spirit of error.

 

[GingerBeer]

I can use exactly the same Scriptures to support my view that Cessationism is a demonic doctrine and it comes from the spirit of error.

You could try but it would not be successful because those who disagree do not claim to be prophets nor do they claim to have any special revelatory gift that enables them to see the "demons" working in others.

Besides, I am not a "cessationist" - which I presume means somebody who teaches that God stopped giving revelatory gifts some time in the past - I am a Christian who is willing to listen to and then evaluate claims to supernatural gifts. The example that I gave earlier is gibberish. That is all it is.

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

It's got no coherent meaning and no one can translate it because it says nothing.

And it is not a sin to observe that tongues may be nothing but human beings speaking gibberish. Nor is it demonic or demonic influence to say so.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You could try but it would not be successful because those who disagree do not claim to be prophets nor do they claim to have any special revelatory gift that enables them to see the "demons" working in others.

Besides, I am not a "cessationist" - which I presume means somebody who teaches that God stopped giving revelatory gifts some time in the past - I am a Christian who is willing to listen to and then evaluate claims to supernatural gifts. The example that I gave earlier is gibberish. That is all it is.

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

It's got no coherent meaning and no one can translate it because it says nothing.

And it is not a sin to observe that tongues may be nothing but human being speaking gibberish. Nor is it demonic or demonic influence to say so.

Well, you are not going to stop 50 million Pentecostals and Charismatics around the world praying in tongues and seeing the spiritual benefits of it through souls being saved, sick people healed, and folks set free from demon influence.

Nor will you really convince the large silent majority of readers on this forum that your assertions are true. So, my debate on this issue is at an end.

 

[GingerBeer]

my debate on this issue is at an end.

One is thankful.

 

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[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think experience can change a person's view on the Scriptures (Without them even realizing it). I never had any experiences in the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. I am grateful to the Lord for this because I would prefer to have a solid foundation based on God's Word by faith first. I also tend to be more cautious. For after all, my soul is at stake.

That's understandable. If you have never had any experience of Pentecostal or Charismatic style of worship and practice, other than watching Youtube videos, then I can totally understand your caution. In my years of involvement and association with the movement, I have witnessed the good, bad and ugly of the movement, but I have many friends in the movement who are genuine, Jesus loving believers whose faith is solidly in the Word of God.

But if you have had anti-tongues propaganda drummed into you for most of your Christian life, then I can really understand your caution and opposition to it.

Jesus said blessed are those who believe and yet do not see. A miracle is something you see. Granted, again, I am not saying God does not do miracles today. I know He does. But does the LORD still operate in the same way He did back like He did with the early church? To my knowledge, I do not see any evidence of this. You believe otherwise, and I only have your word for it. Scripture says we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD or not.

Most genuine miracles are never seen as miracles. The greatest miracles have been obstinate unbelieving rebels suddenly convicted of sin and converted to Christ! When a person has been prayed for, nothing seems to happen, but there have been cases where the person has gone home, gone to bed and woken up the next morning healed. I have heard of believers suffering from demon influence, going through and confessing sin and dealing with traumatic events in their lives with God and at the end of it have just sensed a new freedom in Christ. No theatricals or dramas at all.

There are no references to dramatic healing and deliverance conferences in Acts. When Paul got into Corinth, he did not have mass meetings. He just quietly delivered folk of pagan demons one at a time got them converted and founded the Corinthian church. He did the same at Ephesus. He started just with 12 of John the Baptist's disciples. Paul never made a spectacle of himself. He just quietly got on with the job of discipling people. Although he spoke in tongues more than any other believer, he never spoke it in the hearing of others. He always spoke to himself and to God as he instructed others.

There are some that teach that you must speak in tongues in order to show that you have the Holy Ghost. I don't agree with this.

Neither do I. Genuine believers are saved by God's grace through faith. Tongues is just one of the tools of the Holy Spirit, and not all believers are led by the Spirit to use that tool. A teacher will not need tongues for his ministry because if he used that gift, no one would be able to understand him. A musician doesn't need a socket set to use for his ministry, because he can't make music with that tool. But an intercessor may use tongues to assist his prayer, which is not a public ministry, because that is the most appropriate tool of the list that would enhance his ministry the most. He would not need the gift of prophecy because one doesn't intercede in prayer using prophecy!

So what I am saying is that a person filled with the Holy Spirit will be given the most appropriate gift for the ministry God has called him to.

So, if you don't have a ministry that requires a tool like tongues, then it is understandable that the Holy Spirit has not given that gift to you nor has He given you any rhema teaching to you so that you can understand what it is all about. Why give you an instruction manual for something you are not going to use?

But you have gifts for the ministry that God has called you to.

In any event, I think it is best to agree to disagree in love.
I think my talking about this with you is only going to get you upset.
Only the Lord can show you what I have learned with the Scriptures on this topic in His timing (if that is His will).

May the Lord bless you.

I don't get upset about these things, because I have been debating on this topic on CF for years.

What you have learned from the Lord is for yourself. You cannot objectivise what you have learned so as to make it applicable for everyone else. That's what cult religions do. We have different callings and ministries, and the Holy Spirit tailors teaching to suit where we are in Christ and the particular direction that the Spirit wants us to go.

What is suitable for you doesn't mean that it has to have the same suitability for everyone.

Good believers got tortured and burned at the stake because they refused to go along with the attempts of the established church to objectivise its teaching for all people.

 

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[Alithis]

You could try but it would not be successful because those who disagree do not claim to be prophets nor do they claim to have any special revelatory gift that enables them to see the "demons" working in others.

Besides, I am not a "cessationist" - which I presume means somebody who teaches that God stopped giving revelatory gifts some time in the past - I am a Christian who is willing to listen to and then evaluate claims to supernatural gifts. The example that I gave earlier is gibberish. That is all it is.

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

It's got no coherent meaning and no one can translate it because it says nothing.

And it is not a sin to observe that tongues may be nothing but human beings speaking gibberish. Nor is it demonic or demonic influence to say so.

But it is off topic

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But it is off topic

I apologize if you think I went off topic. I have moved my posts to my other thread, and left the posts here in this thread blank (after my last reply to you).

I hope all is well for you in Jesus Christ;
And may God bless you.

 

[GingerBeer]

But it is off topic

I do not believe it is off topic. It answers

In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim (usually spoken irreverantly) that Tongues today are just babble and not tongues at all.

The same argument will be used repeatedly to shore up this unwise claim.
The cessationist will say
"In acts when they spoke in tongues it was an intelligible language that others can understand.
And if its not- its not real tongues.

It seems that you wanted a discussion where the alleged cessationist position was up for discussion and you introduced the idea of tongues being regarded as "just babble and not tongues at all" so I replied to that notion by giving an example of tongues transcribed in phonetic spelling. The example is clearly gibberish with no coherent meaning. What "language" it could be is anybody's guess but my guess is that it is no language of any kind. It's just gibberish.

You raised the idea of irreverence so I indicated that my post was written with all due reverence to the subject under discussion.

And you raised the idea of cessationists offering particular kinds of argument against tongues. I respected your claims about what you allege cessionists say and offered no such arguments in my posts. And since I am not a cessationist I have no vested interest in that kind of theology.

My perspective is that each and every claim to supernatural gifts needs to be examined and tested for validity. That is what John recommended in 1 John 3:24; 4:1-6.

1 John 3:24 Whoever keeps his commands remains in God and God in him. It is by the Spirit God has given us, that we know he lives in us.

1 John 4:1 My beloved, do not trust every inspiration. Test the spirits, to see, whether they come from God, because many false prophets are now in the world. 2 How will you recognise the Spirit of God? Any spirit recognising Jesus as the Christ, who has taken our flesh, is of God. 3 But any spirit that does not recognise Jesus, is not from God, it is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard of his coming, and even, now, he is in the world. 4 You, my dear children, are of God, and you have already overcome these people, because the one who is in you, is more powerful than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world and the world inspires them, and those of the world listen to them. 6 We are of God, and those who know God, listen to us, but those who are not of God, ignore us. This is how we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of falsehood as well.​

So with tongues one is called to examine the spirits to see if they are of God.

Tongues is a supernatural gift of spoken words which can be translated by one who either knows the language spoken already or who has received a supernatural gift whereby he (or she) may interpret (that is translate) the message into the language of the hearers in the worshipping assembly of Christians.​

One is called by God to examine the "inspiration" from which the alleged gift originates. John warns that some are inspired by the world rather than by God.

How any of this can be off topic from the topic introduced in the original post escapes me. This is clearly precisely the topic that the original topic introduced itself in the words quoted from it and posted above.

 

[Alithis]

I do not believe it is off topic. It answers

​

It seems that you wanted a discussion where the alleged cessationist position was up for discussion and you introduced the idea of tongues being regarded as "just babble and not tongues at all" so I replied to that notion by giving an example of tongues transcribed in phonetic spelling. The example is clearly gibberish with no coherent meaning. What "language" it could be is anybody's guess but my guess is that it is no language of any kind. It's just gibberish.

You raised the idea of irreverence so I indicated that my post was written with all due reverence to the subject under discussion.

And you raised the idea of cessationists offering particular kinds of argument against tongues. I respected your claims about what you allege cessionists say and offered no such arguments in my posts. And since I am not a cessationist I have no vested interest in that kind of theology.

My perspective is that each and every claim to supernatural gifts needs to be examined and tested for validity. That is what John recommended in 1 John 3:24; 4:1-6.

1 John 3:24 Whoever keeps his commands remains in God and God in him. It is by the Spirit God has given us, that we know he lives in us.

1 John 4:1 My beloved, do not trust every inspiration. Test the spirits, to see, whether they come from God, because many false prophets are now in the world. 2 How will you recognise the Spirit of God? Any spirit recognising Jesus as the Christ, who has taken our flesh, is of God. 3 But any spirit that does not recognise Jesus, is not from God, it is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard of his coming, and even, now, he is in the world. 4 You, my dear children, are of God, and you have already overcome these people, because the one who is in you, is more powerful than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world and the world inspires them, and those of the world listen to them. 6 We are of God, and those who know God, listen to us, but those who are not of God, ignore us. This is how we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of falsehood as well.​

So with tongues one is called to examine the spirits to see if they are of God.

Tongues is a supernatural gift of spoken words which can be translated by one who either knows the language spoken already or who has received a supernatural gift whereby he (or she) may interpret (that is translate) the message into the language of the hearers in the worshipping assembly of Christians.​

One is called by God to examine the "inspiration" from which the alleged gift originates. John warns that some are inspired by the world rather than by God.

How any of this can be off topic from the topic introduced in the original post escapes me. This is clearly precisely the topic that the original topic introduced itself in the words quoted from it and posted above.

The topic is
The cessationist says that tongues is not valid unless it is an intelligable language.
Iv pointed out that the scriptires plainly says otherwise.

That's the topic