Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

[LoveGodsWord]

If you think I am teaching lawlessness, you are ignoring the following which comes from the Bible.


Do you follow the Commandments of Christ, or do you have no standard?



Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (How many sets of commandments?)


Are we without any law (antinomian) after we come into the New Covenant? After you are saved, is it OK to live like hell? Should there be a change in your life, or will your behavior still be rotten? If someone says they are under “Grace”, is that a license to do as they please?


1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (Holy Spirit=Master Teacher)


What is the standard of conduct revealed below by Christ?


Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

(What does this standard look like in real life? How do you want to be treated by others?)


Are the commandments of Christ a higher standard of conduct?


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Is it OK to go online and view inappropriate contentography?) Matt. 7:21-23 ?



New Covenant Commandments: How do we treat our brother?



1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.


1Jn_2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.


1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


1Jn_3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


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Not at all dear friend. I am not ignoring anything. I love God's Word (excuse the pun). I am only sharing new covenant scripture with you that shows your teachings of lawlessness (without law) are not biblical. Let me ask you some questions for clarity in case I have a misunderstanding on what you are saying. Your teaching that God's 10 commandments are abolished aren't you? If that is what your teaching then this is a teaching of lawlessness (without law). This is what you believe and teach right? This teaching is not biblical!

I have been asking you questions in relation to what you think were the laws that made up the old covenant for a reason to show that it is your understanding of covenants and what laws made up the old covenant and what laws are now obsolete in the new covenant that has led you to the this false teaching which pretty much disagrees with most of the new covenant scriptures.

According to the new covenant scriptures love is not separate from Gods’ law it is expressed through it. So to say we are now free to break any one of God’s 10 commandment and say we are expressing love by by doing so is not biblical according to the scriptures as sin (breaking God’s law) is what those who do not know God do according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10. God’s people therefore love God and keep His commandments as shown in the scriptures provided in John 14:15; John 15:10: 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

According to the scripture context that you have left out of 1 John 3:21-23 it is not pleasing in God’s eyes that we sin and break His commandments. Sin is defined early in 1 John 3:4 where is says “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” It is not pleasing to God that we sin and the reason John is writing here is that we sin not in 1 John 2:1. In fact John goes on to say in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6 that we do not know God if we knowingly break his commandments and that sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Those who are born of God to love through faith do not practice sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. This is all context stated that leads into 1 John 3:23 in regards to love where love is also relevant as shown earlier in Matthew 22:36:40; Romans 13;8-10 and James 2:10-11

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbour...

* Will we honor our parents?
* Will we not murder?
* Will we not commit adultery with our neighbor's spouse?
* Will we not steal from them?
* Will we not lie to them?
* Will we not covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

* Will we not have other Gods?
* Will we not make idols and worship them?
* Will we not take his name [follow] him in vain?
* Will we remember his seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy?

Do you agree that love is expressed in obedience to God's laws above? Now if your answer is yes then you agree with me. If your answer is no what kind of love are you talking about? Love without action is the same as faith without works that James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-26.

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Jesus, Paul, James and John all agree that love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law and breaking God's law shows we do not love God or our fellow man and stand guilty before God of sin *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.....

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

and again;

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Love is expressed in obedience to God's law not breaking Gods law according to Jesus, Paul and James. Paul goes on to say that we are saved by faith but faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in all those who truly believe Gods' Word

ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

and why JOHN says;

2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

and again here;

1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

and is why it is written;

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

and why JESUS says;

JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

This is why Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets" - Matthew 22:36-40.

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SUMMARY: So in summary love is not separate from obedience to Gods' law. Love is expressed through obedience to God's law God's law, not by breaking God's law. No one loves God by breaking God's commandments according to the scriptures. Do you agree with what has been shared with you here? If not why not.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[BABerean2]

and why JOHN says;

2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

and again here;

1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

and is why it is written;

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

and why JESUS says;

JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

This is why Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets" - Matthew 22:36-40.

.....................

SUMMARY: So in summary love is not separate from obedience to Gods' law. Love is expressed through obedience to God's law God's law, not by breaking God's law. No one loves God by breaking God's commandments according to the scriptures. Do you agree with what has been shared with you here? If not why not.

Hope this is helpful.

It would have been more helpful if you referred to "His commandments" in 1 John, and 2 John, and you actually listed what John said "His commandments" are defined as by the Apostle John.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Once again, you seem to be attempting to use the old "bait-and-switch" strategy to replace "His commandments" with the Sinai Covenant which has now been made "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.


The proof that there are two separate sets of commandments is found below in the words of Christ.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It would have been more helpful if you referred to "His commandments" in 1 John, and 2 John, and you actually listed what John said "His commandments" are defined as by the Apostle John.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

How does this post answer anything in the post you are quoting from or address the scripture context you leave out? It doesn't. Your just ignoring what was posted to you and repeating yourself without addressing the scriptures in the post that disagree with your teachings of lawlessness (without law) that show that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you should re-read the post you are quoting from again and if you disagree with what was shared with you from the scriptures you can explain why? Ignoring Gods' Word according to the very Words of Jesus does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgment day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. So we should be careful not to ignore the scriptures that disagree with us.

Once again, you seem to be attempting to use the old "bait-and-switch" strategy to replace "His commandments" with the Sinai Covenant which has now been made "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

I am not attempting to bait and switch anything. What am I attempting to bait and switch? I have simply asked you many times now and shown you from the scriptures that your understanding of what you think the old covenant was and what the new covenant is does not line up with the scriptures. Let me ask you again, Do you know what laws made up the old covenant? You quoted Exodus 34:28 and yes the 10 commandments were included in the old covenant but were they the only laws included in the old covenant? -NO! If not what other laws made up the old covenant and what is now obsolete in the new covenant? It is the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and the shadow laws that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant (the laws of the Levitical Priesthood and the earthly Sanctuary; the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; the laws of the Feast days; the laws of circumcision etc) see *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22. It is true that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant so how has it now changed? Jesus is now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What has the Mosaic book of the law have to do with the old covenant *Exodus 24:7? (Hint: The answer to these questions is written in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 and Exodus 20:4) - It holds all the shadow laws for remission of sins.

The proof that there are two separate sets of commandments is found below in the words of Christ.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love..

Jesus does not have a separate law to His fathers law as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30). Your trying to divide the father against the son when the scriptures teach a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand *Luke 11:17-20. Jesus does not have different commandments to the Father and you have already been shown earlier through the new covenant scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Bob S]

How does this post answer anything in the post you are quoting from or address the scripture context you leave out? It doesn't. Your just ignoring what was posted to you and repeating yourself without addressing the scriptures in the post that disagree with your teachings of lawlessness (without law) that show that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you should re-read the post you are quoting from again and if you disagree with what was shared with you from the scriptures you can explain why? Ignoring Gods' Word according to the very Words of Jesus does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgment day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. So we should be careful not to ignore the scriptures that disagree with us.

We have proved over and over what "keeping the commandments" means in the new covenant, something you have never proven because you cannot.

I am not attempting to bait and switch anything. What am I attempting to bait and switch? I have simply asked you many times now and shown you from the scriptures that your understanding of what you think the old covenant was and what the new covenant is does not line up with the scriptures. Let me ask you again, Do you know what laws made up the old covenant? You quoted Exodus 34:28 and yes the 10 commandments were included in the old covenant but were they the only laws included in the old covenant? -NO! If not what other laws made up the old covenant and what is now obsolete in the new covenant? It is the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and the shadow laws that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant (the laws of the Levitical Priesthood and the earthly Sanctuary; that laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; the Feast days; circumcision etc) see *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22. It is true that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant so how has it now changed? Jesus is now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What has the Mosaic book of the law have to do with the old covenant *Exodus 24:7? (Hint: The answer to these questions is written in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 and Exodus 20:4) - It holds all the shadow laws for remission of sins.

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot. Why, if all the other laws in the old covenant are void, do you hold fast to the dietary laws and your modified false tithing system? Do not ever forget the two greatest laws in the Bible are found in the laws you discard. The least you could be is consistant.

Jesus does not have a separate law to His fathers law as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30).

Tell that to Jesus who distinguished what He kept and what He asks us to keep. JN 15:9-14

Your trying to divide the father against the son when the scriptures teach a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand

That is a bunch of bologna.

*Luke 11:17-20. Jesus does not have different commandments to the Father and you have already been shown earlier through the new covenant scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law

True, the Godhead is in one accord. Jesus is the part of the Godhead that gave us the NEW command to love others as Jesus loves us. There is no such command in any part of scripture like that command.

If you are trying to tell us that love was part of the ten commandments you are wasting our time because love isn't even mentioned in the ten. Every one of the ten was about duty. The Israelites could have kept them out of their love to God, but the commands themselves did not portray love.

it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic.

It is wrong to assume that any of the verses you always use refer to the ten commandments.

 

[michael21]

Under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 the "Law" is written on the heart.

Under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 the "Law" is written on the heart.



You will need to get to see the actual quote of the text then... This IS the NEW Covenant according to scripture.

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

.

The above of course is true. So how can a seventh day adventist accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin in their heart by failing to adhere to a saturday sabbath? Does sola scripture count for nothing?

Through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20

 

[BobRyan]

The above of course is true. So how can a seventh day adventist accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin in their heart

John 16 says even the pagan "have a consciousness of sin" and so does Romans 1 make that same case about people with no Bible info at all..

But not all people have the same level of "informed conscience".

John 9:41 -
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

James 4:14 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin".

So the SDA POV is that there are those who are not even Christian at all - who don't know Christ - yet as Rom 2:13-16 "do instinctively the things of the Law - showing the Law written on the heart" by the Holy Spirit -- so then "New Covenant"

So the SDA scenario is far more tolerant than even many non-SDA Christians would allow.

 

[BobRyan]

We have proved over and over what "keeping the commandments" means in the new covenant

Without ever actually quoting the New Covenant or trying to exegete Jer 31:31-34?

Given that situation your statement is more than a little puzzling.

Obviously Jeremiah and his readers were aware of the TEN Commandments... all Bible scholars admit to this obvious detail.

 

[michael21]

John 16 says even the pagan "have a consciousness of sin" and so does Romans 1 make that same case about people with no Bible info at all..

But not all people have the same level of "informed conscience".

John 9:41 -
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

James 4:14 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin".

So the SDA POV is that there are those who are not even Christian at all - who don't know Christ - yet as Rom 2:13-16 "do instinctively the things of the Law - showing the Law written on the heart" by the Holy Spirit -- so then "New Covenant"

So the SDA scenario is far more tolerant than even many non-SDA Christians would allow.

Come now, for the believer, as you acknowledge the law is in their heart and mind. God put it there! You also acknowledge sin is the transgression ofr the law. We are speaking of believers, not non believers. So I ask again. How can seventh day adventists accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin if they fail to adhere to a saturday sabbath. Sola scripture states they must, if sda belief is correct

 

[BobRyan]

Do you understand the fact that the Old Covenant was still in place until the moment Christ died at Calvary?

Hint: there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8... it is the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34. Everyone who was ever saved - in all of time was saved under the New Covenant.

(We can keep going over this same obvious Bible detail if you prefer).

The OLD Covenant "obey and Live" is still in effect - Rom 3:19-20 because every who is lost in all of time is lost under the Old Covenant.

The "nation covenant" with the nation of Israel at Sinai is a type of the "Old Covenant" with individuals that is of the Gal 3:11-14 "obey and live" form.

All mankind is lost under the "obey and live" condition since "all have sinned" Rom 3:23

(We can keep going over this same obvious Bible detail if you prefer).

======================

So then it is no "accident" Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate - admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant.

 

[guevaraj]

Come now, for the believer, as you acknowledge the law is in their heart and mind. God put it there! You also acknowledge sin is the transgression ofr the law. We are speaking of believers, not non believers. So I ask again. How can seventh day adventists accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin if they fail to adhere to a saturday sabbath. Sola scripture states they must, if sda belief is correct

Brother, the answer is that the SDAs are also wrong about the Sabbath. That is why the Holy Spirit will not help a Christian to forgo one human tradition of Sunday worship for another human tradition of Saturday worship when no one has the truth about the biblical Sabbath.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Brother, the answer is that the SDAs are also wrong about the Sabbath. That is why the Holy Spirit will not help a Christian to forgo one human tradition of Sunday worship for another human tradition of Saturday worship when no one has the truth about the biblical Sabbath.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I am sticking with scriptures as it clearly lets us know the Sabbath is on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11 and it is from evening to evening. Lev 23:32. Our Jewish friends have been keeping the Sabbath correctly for centuries. Jesus kept the Sabbath correctly and there has always been a remnant who has kept the Sabbath and all of God's commandments, which includes keeping the Sabbath holy from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. What you are teaching is not biblical.

 

[BobRyan]

Come now, for the believer, as you acknowledge the law is in their heart and mind

That is the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant where the moral law of God (known to Jeremiah and his readers) is written on the heart and mind - and sins forgiven, and adoption into the family of God (according to the actual text).

You also acknowledge sin is the transgression ofr the law.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" --

BOTH Believers AND unbelievers are "in the WORLD" and the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - not "just believers"

We are speaking of believers, not non believers.

Romans 2:13-16 specifically targets gentiles with no Bible at all. so "unbelievers"

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

So I ask again. How can seventh day adventists accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin

John 16 - all mankind - even pagans have a consciousness of sin. No such thing as a pagan or a Christian with "no consciousness of sin" -- However people have different levels of informed conscience ... so then

James 4:17 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" applied to all.
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

The "if you were blind you would have no sin" statement of Christ applies to all -- believer or not.

Romans 1 makes the case this way --

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,...

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, ... 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

Sola scripture states they must,

Sola Scriptura testing demands that the scriptures I just quoted not be ignored in this case.

So the SDA scenario is far more tolerant than even many non-SDA Christians would allow.

Clearly you are "barking up the wrong tree" (as they say) on this one.

 

[michael21]

That is the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant where the moral law of God (known to Jeremiah and his readers) is written on the heart and mind - and sins forgiven, and adoption into the family of God (according to the actual text).




1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" --

BOTH Believers AND unbelievers are "in the WORLD" and the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - not "just believers"



Romans 2:13-16 specifically targets gentiles with no Bible at all. so "unbelievers"

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.




John 16 - all mankind - even pagans have a consciousness of sin. No such thing as a pagan or a Christian with "no consciousness of sin" -- However people have different levels of informed conscience ... so then

James 4:17 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" applied to all.
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

The "if you were blind you would have no sin" statement of Christ applies to all -- believer or not.

Romans 1 makes the case this way --

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,...

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, ... 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death,



Sola Scriptura testing demands that the scriptures I just quoted not be ignored in this case.

I appreciate your need to avoid the simple texts and point being made. Of course unbelievers have a conscience but they DO NOT have heartfelt conviction of sin before God do they, believers do.
Sin is the transgression of the law
Through the law we become conscious of sin
The law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of each and every christian, no exceptions, as you agree.
Therefore, if sda belief is correct, it would be impossible for anyone to be a christian unless they were conscious of sin before God by not keeping to a saturday sabbath. That's sola scripture. You can of course choose to ignore it if you want to

 

[BobRyan]

I appreciate your need to avoid the simple texts

All the texts I quoted are simple and easy to read and the fact that they include Bible details that your present argument finds "inconvenient" does not mean we need to put those texts on "ignore" because they speak directly to what people do and do not know, when it comes to judgment and sin.

Bible details matter even if you find them to be inconvenient at the moment.

John the baptist himself sent messengers to Christ while he - the baptizer was languishing in prison. He sent them to ask Jesus if he was really the Messiah or if they need to look for another. There were "details" even John was not informed of at the time.

John had been preaching a "chopping roots and taking names" judgment message about the Messiah - but there we have John put in prison and Jesus not rescuing him. John was seriously perplexed. Information that we have - he did not have at the time.

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, if sda belief is correct, it would be impossible for anyone to be a christian unless they were conscious of sin

The texts in my posts do no support your narrow conclusion and so it is not just the SDA POV that is opposed to your argument - so also is the Bible in those texts you find to be so inconvenient - yet they are fully accepted by SDAs.

 

[michael21]

The texts in my posts do no support your narrow conclusion and so it is not just the SDA POV that is opposed to your argument - so also is the Bible in those texts you find to be so inconvenient - yet they are fully accepted by SDAs.

The bible completely supports my argument, it is sola scripture. Let me repeat once more:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
Under the new covenant the law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of every born again believer, as you believe.
So, the law reveals sin, it is within the believer. It is utterly impossible therefore, if sda belief is correct for anyone to be a christian if they have no heartfelt conviction of sin by failing to follow a saturday sabbath. I mean this kindly, please do not just quote scripture, consider its implications. God bless

 

[BobRyan]

The bible completely supports my argument,
it is sola scripture.

As long as you have your "ignore those bible texts" response to the texts pointing to the flaw in your conclusion --- it is hard to position it as "sola scriptura".

Let me repeat once more:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
Under the new covenant the law is written in the mind

John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of SIN" -- not "just believers.. an inconvenient detail for your narrow application.

Romans 1 - the pagans themselves "KNOW that those who do such things deserve the penalty of death" -- so then "not just believers"

Romans 2 - gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - "do INSTINCTIVELY" the things of the Law - showing that the Holy Spirit has written that Law on their heart.

James 4:17 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" applied to all.
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Sola Scriptura testing demands that the scriptures I just quoted not be ignored in this case.

Because we do not put those scriptures "on ignore" the SDA scenario is far more tolerant than even many non-SDA Christians would allow.

Clearly you are "barking up the wrong tree" (as they say) on this one.

====================
The Christian's conscience is "informed" by what he/she believes the bible to teach and not all Christians have the same understanding of it -- Paul himself points this out in 1 Cor 8.

 

[michael21]

As long as you have your "ignore those bible texts" response to the texts pointing to the flaw in your conclusion --- it is hard to position it as "sola scriptura".



John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of SIN" -- not "just believers.. an inconvenient detail for your narrow application.

Romans 1 - the pagans themselves "KNOW that those who do such things deserve the penalty of death" -- so then "not just believers"

Romans 2 - gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - "do INSTINCTIVELY" the things of the Law - showing that the Holy Spirit has written that Law on their heart.

James 4:17 "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" applied to all.
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.


and placed on the heart of every born again believer, as you believe.
So, the law reveals sin, it is within the believer. It is utterly impossible therefore, if sda belief is correct for anyone to be a christian if the have no heartfelt conviction of sin by failing to follow a saturday sabbath. I mean this kindly, please do not just quote scripture, consider its implications. God bless

[/QUOTE]
I understand your need to avoid sola scripture in this matter, as you must defend your denominational belief. But you are ignoring one of the most basic tenets of the bible.
Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, not applicable here by any means. Unbelievers are being spoken of.
Are you sure you want to discuss your quote from Romans 2 concerning those who do not have the law doing what the law supports?
None of the changes the simple truth that the law reveals sin, and the law is in the heart and mind of each and every believer.
Through the law we become conscious of sin

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 8 - not all have the same understanding.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

====================

if they have no heartfelt conviction of sin by failing to follow a saturday sabbath.

Your argument is that all Christians have the same understanding of what is right vs wrong. Paul differs in 1 Cor 8 and so does Christ differ in John 9:41 in the case of texts you are choosing to set aside yet calling it "sola scriptura".

Some Christians are just fine with praying to the dead, bowing down before images etc as part of their worship. Other Christians would have a real problem with that.

"feeling good about it" does not change God's word - but still each person is held accountable to what they believe to be fact/true/Biblical

I understand your need to avoid all these scriptures in this area - but please consider looking at them.

 

[michael21]

1 Cor 8 - not all have the same understanding.

4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

====================



Your argument is that all Christians have the same understanding of what is right vs wrong. Paul differs in 1 Cor 8 and so does Christ differ in John 9:41 in the case of texts you are choosing to set aside calling it "sola scriptura"

Once again, you are not understanding the point here. Paul is speaking of things you can take either view about. They are not binding clearly. Are the Ten Coimmandments not binding in your view? Paul speaks of disputable matters in Rom ch14? I don't think you believe the ten commandments should be disputable do you
Non disputable matters are in the believers hearts and minds. And, as sola scripture states. Through the law we become conscious of sin