Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?

[chevyontheriver]

There is no where in scripture that says the “Church” is the Catholic Church that we have today. The scripture you posted does not show your church has greater authority than Jesus or that traditions are above the commandments of God.

You finally played the SDA Sunday card as your ultimate card. Thereby letting all other Protestants know where they stand with you. In vain do they worship. Catholics already knew where we stood with you.

 

[BPPLEE]

Thanks for the honest and civil discussion. I would look at Mark 10:42-44

The Apostles handed over authority to the Bishops of the Catholic Church?

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Apostles handed over authority to the Bishops of the Catholic Church?

Who did they hand authority over to then?

 

[BPPLEE]

Did you even bother to read that teeny tiny little Dei Verbum document that I gave you the link to in post 165? The one I responded to your statement that: "So for you it's Sola Catholic Church it seems. You make some valid points but seem to give all authority to the Church".

If you want to continue to believe that for me it's Sola Catholic Church and that I give all authority to the Church then I can't stop you. You get those 'facts' somehow from your Bible alone. I donno how, but you are comfortable that way. No surprise.

The Apostles handed over authority to the Bishops of the Catholic Church? You assume the first Church was the Roman Catholic Church? This is just more to argue about.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Apostles handed over authority to the Bishops of the Catholic Church? You assume the first Church was the Roman Catholic Church? This is just more to argue about.

So did you read Dei Verbum yet?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'm not anti Catholic. I have enough to read and learn just trying to get through the Bible. I'm not ready to learn everything about another denomination just so I can critique it. I have respect for Catholics I just disagree with the Church. Not a hill I choose to die on though. I don't think the Church has more authority than the scriptures. That's probably the difference between us.

She doesn’t have more authority than the scriptures, but she has more authority than other people’s opinions regarding scripture.

like I said, read the catechism or topics that you are interested in from the scriptures and check the Catechisms analysis of that topic

 

[BPPLEE]

So did you read Dei Verbum yet?

Where do you think I got that from? Did you read it?

 

[BPPLEE]

So did you read Dei Verbum yet?

What is this document supposed to convince me of?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The Apostles handed over authority to the Bishops of the Catholic Church? You assume the first Church was the Roman Catholic Church? This is just more to argue about.

Peter was the Bishop of Rome and Paul joined him there. They both died there. The Authority of the Church began in Rome.The Apostles handed authority to the Bishops by the laying on of hands and Apostolic succession
The Pope is the chair of Peter, we can trace Apostolic succession back to Peter himself, the Vatican archives preserve the primary source material, and that line leads to Jesus Christ Himself.
The Cardinals, ArchBishops and Bishops are the episcopate. They are the successors of the Apostles.
The Priests and deacons are agents of the Bishop for the administration of the sacraments. Sacraments are channels of God’s grace and are administered by the authority of the Church, Ex Opere Operato. By the work performed and not by the righteousness of the minister.
All of the ordained ministers are consecrated in holy obedience to the Chair of Peter, the Pope

 

[chevyontheriver]

What is this document supposed to convince me of?

It will inform you of the Catholic view of Scripture, as opposed to your view of the Catholic view of Scripture. More than a small difference I'm betting. That way you could know what to complain about, if you even still had a complaint. You wouldn't say things like 'Sola Catholic Church' any more because you would know better.

But it's optional. I don't want to force anything on you. If you are comfortable as you are, and are comfortable saying things about Catholics that aren't quite true, then OK. But in the time you have spent already on this one issue you could have read it two or three times.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Where do you think I got that from? Did you read it?

I don't know where you got it from. I can't read your mind. I have read it. I have taught it.

 

[BPPLEE]

It will inform you of the Catholic view of Scripture, as opposed to your view of the Catholic view of Scripture. More than a small difference I'm betting. That way you could know what to complain about, if you even still had a complaint. You wouldn't say things like 'Sola Catholic Church' any more because you would know better.

But it's optional. I don't want to force anything on you. If you are comfortable as you are, and are comfortable saying things about Catholics that aren't quite true, then OK. But in the time you have spent already on this one issue you could have read it two or three times.

I did read it.

 

[BPPLEE]

Peter was the Bishop of Rome and Paul joined him there. They both died there. The Authority of the Church began in Rome.The Apostles handed authority to the Bishops by the laying on of hands and Apostolic succession
The Pope is the chair of Peter, we can trace Apostolic succession back to Peter himself, the Vatican archives preserve the primary source material, and that line leads to Jesus Christ Himself.
The Cardinals, ArchBishops and Bishops are the episcopate. They are the successors of the Apostles.
The Priests and deacons are agents of the Bishop for the administration of the sacraments. Sacraments are channels of God’s grace and are administered by the authority of the Church, Ex Opere Operato. By the work performed and not by the righteousness of the minister.
All of the ordained ministers are consecrated in holy obedience to the Chair of Peter, the Pope

Yes. You are confirming what Catholics believe. Protestants disagree

 

[boughtwithaprice]

There is no where in scripture that says the “Church” is the Catholic Church that we have today. The scripture you posted does not show your church has greater authority than Jesus or that traditions are above the commandments of God.

For me Jesus is the final word on this matter:

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—

There is nothing wrong with traditions if it is not placed over the commandments of God according to words of Jesus Christ.



I’ll let these quotes from the Roman Catholic church speak for themselves:

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.
—Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

Something we we warned about in scripture- this change did not come from God. Daniel 7:25. Should we follow man or God?

Peter as given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever he bound on Earth was bound in heaven, whatever he loosed on Earth was loosed in Heaven. God gave him that authority. He did not take it for himself.

For you to ignore that authority, you claim Christ had no right to give it, and should have stuck to your version of the law. Who is ignoring God and obeying men?

The Apostles were told to go into the World and preach the Gospel, not spread Judaism. The best way to teach the Gospel was to proclaim Christs resurrection and the founding of the Church on Pentecost. Those both took place on Sunday, the first day of the week.
Paul withstood Peter to his face in Galatians saying you are a Jew but live as a gentile. Why would he say that? He was probably eating pork and holding Mass on Sundays. Paul then says why should the Gentiles live as Jews.
If you look in Exodus, you will see the Sabbath command was given to the Israelites not the gentiles, and we don’t compel gentiles to live as Jews. The Sabbath is not part of the natural law, it is ceremonial and a shadow of things to come, just as circumcision was, yet circumcision was greater than the Sabbath, as Jews were allowed to break the Sabbath to perform circumcision.

Besides, you know there are Ten Commandments right ? Why doesn’t the SDA keep the teaching on adultery and murder? Their teaching says contraception, which promotes lust is ok, and abortion, which is murder is ok in some circumstances. If they are so emphatic that we must keep all the commandments, why are they lax in those areas?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes. You are confirming what Catholics believe. Protestants disagree

and what is the basis for your disagreement?

 

[BPPLEE]

She doesn’t have more authority than the scriptures, but she has more authority than other people’s opinions regarding scripture.

like I said, read the catechism or topics that you are interested in from the scriptures and check the Catechisms analysis of that topic

Papal supremacy - Wikipedia So this is wrong?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Peter was the Bishop of Rome and Paul joined him there. They both died there. The Authority of the Church began in Rome.

Actually Jerusalem, where the Church started, is where the authority of Peter ,and the apostles with him, started. When Peter moved to Rome, the prime see became Rome because Peter was there.

The Apostles handed authority to the Bishops by the laying on of hands and Apostolic succession
The Pope is the chair of Peter,

Sits on the chair of Peter. The chair, the seat of authority, continues with successors.

we can trace Apostolic succession back to Peter himself, the Vatican archives preserve the primary source material, and that line leads to Jesus Christ Himself.
The Cardinals, ArchBishops and Bishops are the episcopate. They are the successors of the Apostles.
The Priests and deacons are agents of the Bishop for the administration of the sacraments. Sacraments are channels of God’s grace and are administered by the authority of the Church, Ex Opere Operato. By the work performed and not by the righteousness of the minister.
All of the ordained ministers are consecrated in holy obedience to the Chair of Peter, the Pope

Strictly speaking to their bishop.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I did read it.

Yeah!

So now you have at least a little more of an idea of how Catholics understand the Bible.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Papal supremacy - Wikipedia So this is wrong?

where in that document does it say that the Pope is above scripture. He has authority over other people’s opinions on scripture but he is not given carte blanche to contradict scripture.
He does contradict people that propose a scriptural position that is not true, much like Our Lord Jesus did to Satan in the desert, when Satan used scripture to tempt the Lord

He doesn’t even have the authority to change Catholic teaching, only to guard it

 

[BPPLEE]

Yeah!

So now you have at least a little more of an idea of how Catholics understand the Bible.

Now I see more things I disagree with. There is no point in arguing you are sold on the Catholic Church's position. I'm not. I'm willing to accept mine is not the only view. I don't know if you are