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Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?

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LoveGodsWord

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You made the list, I asked you a question about it. I see I made a mistake in pointing to topic 11, I actually meant point 12.
You say that “penance is required for salvation” is a man made teaching or tradition.
I asked you if you are saying that repentance is not required to receive salvation? It is a simple question. If you don’t want to answer, let me know.
We will go over the other points in due time.
Answering my question with a question is not a response, it is a distraction or evasion.
You made the statement, and it is a serious charge. Do you wish to clarify your remark or recant? As it stands, it appears to be calumny.
Is that what you want?
I will take it that you have no response to my questions in regards to who is Gods' Church defined in the scriptures. I am happy to start with point 11-12 if that is where you would like to start first. However, after this can we start from the beginning and work through the list in a systematic manner so our conversation can be summarized at the end? I will wait for your response.
 
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coffee4u

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I was wondering since there are so many denominations claiming Sola Scriptura, what does that actually mean, and how is it different from the scenario presented in this video?

Are you governed by sola scriptura or is sola scriptura governed by you or those in authority over you?

This video really made me think. Anyone else?

https://youtube.com/shorts/tUZKrrz3vCk?feature=share

Well I see his first mistake, his stance that 'fundamentalist' all claim to understand 100% of the scriptures. This shows his own bias towards those of us who follow sola scriptura.

Paint a caricature of your opponent and then follow that up with a rebuttal that attempts to tear down that caricature. Reminds me of the professor I saw the other day who within the first minute of his argument had called people who didn't think like him to be 'bigots'.
Of course your argument looks persuasive if you start with a caricature because both the caricature and the rebuttal are both fictitious.

If this is how your argument starts then you have already lost.
 
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Well I see his first mistake, his stance that 'fundamentalist' all claim to understand 100% of the scriptures. This shows his own bias towards those of us who follow sola scriptura.

Paint a caricature of your opponent and then follow that up with a rebuttal that attempts to tear down that caricature. Reminds me of the professor I saw the other day who within the first minute of his argument had called people who didn't think like him to be 'bigots'.
Of course your argument looks persuasive if you start with a caricature because both the caricature and the rebuttal are both fictitious.

If this is how your argument starts then you have already lost.


It’s not a question of trying to win. It’s an attempt to gain understanding. If his is a caricature, what is really taking place?
 
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I will take it that you have no response to my questions in regards to who is Gods' Church defined in the scriptures. I am happy to start with point 11-12 if that is where you would like to start first. However, after this can we start from the beginning and work through the list in a systematic manner so our conversation can be summarized at the end? I will wait for your response.


Start with point 12. The proposition is that penance is required for salvation is a man made tradition. Is that your position, or is it something else? Once the correct understanding is established, we can go on systematically one by one with your list
 
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coffee4u

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It’s not a question of trying to win. It’s an attempt to gain understanding. If his is a caricature, what is really taking place?

No he is not trying to gain understanding and yes his aim is to win.

If someone is truly trying to understand you don't start off with a generalization. The one thing we should all know about generalizations is they will be wrong.
Replace 'Fundamentalist' with another label such as 'women' "All women believe" and see how far that takes you. Point being the person making this statement knows that some 'from this mentioned group' will indeed believe this but it does not acknowledge that many from that same group do not. So it is a half truth. Satan himself deceived Eve with a half truth. Half truths are far more dangerous that outright lies because they are far more believable. This is how cults start. They might say "Jesus is the messiah!" and you might think, a genuine church. But when you dig deeper you will see they deny that he is God. Half truths can be very dangerous.
 
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Valletta

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Start with point 12. The proposition is that penance is required for salvation is a man made tradition. Is that your position, or is it something else? Once the correct understanding is established, we can go on systematically one by one with your list
It's best to start with what the Catechism of the Catholic Church 980 actually says rather than someone's rendition:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Start with point 12. The proposition is that penance is required for salvation is a man made tradition. Is that your position, or is it something else? Once the correct understanding is established, we can go on systematically one by one with your list

Hello BWAP nice to see you.

"Penance" - Point 12 from post # 425 linked.

"Penance" is not the same as "Repentance"! So yes it is a man-made teaching and tradition so let's start off by defining it as stated from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

What is Penance according to the Roman Catholic Church?

Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest's absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.” – Catholic Encyclopedia

Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion . Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.” – CCC1430

It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the ChurchCCC 980

There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.” – CCC 982

This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead.”- CCC 1032

This sacrament reconciles us with the Church. Sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of Penance repairs or restores it. In this sense it does not simply heal the one restored to ecclesial communion but has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members. Re-established or strengthened in the communion of saints, the sinner is made stronger by the exchange of spiritual goods among all the living members of the Body of Christ, whether still on pilgrimage or already in the heavenly homeland.” CCC 1469

The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are: - reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace; - reconciliation with the Church; - remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins; - remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin; - peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation; - an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.” - CCC 1496

Taken out of the above…
  1. Penance in the Catholic sense is a sacrament (Catholic Encyclopedia)
  2. Penance is essentially an act of devotion - a work to obtain forgiveness of sins (CCC1430)
  3. Penance is only done after baptism not before baptism (Catholic Encyclopedia; CCC 980)
  4. Penance is necessary to gain salvation (CCC 980)
  5. Penance needs a Catholic Priest for forgiveness (Catholic Encyclopedia)
  6. Penance and forgiveness of sins through the Priest is only found in the Catholic Churc (CCC 982)
  7. Penance can be performed for the dead along with indulgences (CCC 1032)
  8. Penance restored the sinner to the Roman Catholic Church (CCC 1469)
Why is Catholic penance not the same as repentance and not biblical?

There is no word for penance anywhere in the bible. Repentance according to the bible is μετανοέω meaning a change of mind, a sorrow and a turning away from sin which is a gift of God through an act of faith received by believing Gods’ Word *see Ezekiel 18:30; Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 3:19. It is a gift of God received by believing what Gods’ Word says and not of works lest any man should boast. *Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts of the Apostles 11:18; Romans 2:4. Therefore, there is nothing that we can do to earn God’s forgiveness through penance and indulgences. We no longer need earthly Priests according to the scriptures. Jesus is now our great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *see Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27.

We can seek Gods’ forgiveness for our sins today and now this very moment, directly from Jesus himself who is now our great high Priest who ministers on our behalf *Hebrews 8:1-6 by believing His Word and seeking Him through prayer and claiming His promises written in 1 John 2:2-3; 1 John 1:9; John 3:16. According to the scriptures there is only one mediator because God and man and that is Jesus Christ the righteous *see 1 Timothy 2:5. Repentance comes before baptism not after baptism *Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Baptism is a sign in all those who have already repented of their sins and seek to walk in newness of life through faith in God’s Word *see Romans 6:1-23. There is no scripture anywhere in the bible telling us to do penance or to do indulgences for the dead just as there is no scriptures anywhere that says that penance restores us to the Roman Catholic Church through a Catholic priest.

The scriptures teach that we are all made right with God by faith apart from the works of the law (Romans 3:24; 4:3, 5; 5:1, 9; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8). We are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 9:14; 1 John 1:7). Christ's blood cleanses us from unrighteousness (1 John 1:9; Psalms 103:12; Romans 11:6; Galatians 2:21; 3:21-22). It is Christ alone who made the atonement by which our sins are forgiven (Hebrews 1:3; 2:17; 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24). Not a Roman Catholic Priest. Therefore "Penance" and "Repentance" are not the same thing according to the scriptures. There is no scripture in all of the bible that tells us anywhere to conduct Roman Catholic penance which is not biblical and simply a man-made teaching and tradition that leads us away from the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful
 
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No he is not trying to gain understanding and yes his aim is to win.

If someone is truly trying to understand you don't start off with a generalization. The one thing we should all know about generalizations is they will be wrong.
Replace 'Fundamentalist' with another label such as 'women' "All women believe" and see how far that takes you. Point being the person making this statement knows that some 'from this mentioned group' will indeed believe this but it does not acknowledge that many from that same group do not. So it is a half truth. Satan himself deceived Eve with a half truth. Half truths are far more dangerous that outright lies because they are far more believable. This is how cults start. They might say "Jesus is the messiah!" and you might think, a genuine church. But when you dig deeper you will see they deny that he is God. Half truths can be very dangerous.


I see what you are saying, but I don't see how this relates to what Mr Peterson said. An observation is not a generalization, when you have groups that actually claim sola scriptura. They state that as their position, so they deny authority above them, and their interpretation becomes their teaching. They are no longer taught by God, but heap up for themselves teachers that tell them what their itching ears want to hear. We have thousands of groups that have many different interpretations. so who is right?
 
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Hello BWAP nice to see you.

Therefore "Penance" and "Repentance" are not the same thing according to the scriptures. There is no scripture in all of the bible that tells us anywhere to conduct Roman Catholic penance which is not biblical and simply a man-made teaching and tradition that leads us away from the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful


I see what you are saying, but have you considered Revelation 3: 14-22 ?


[14] And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: [15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

[14] "The Amen,": that is, the true one, the Truth itself; the Word and Son of God. The beginning-- that is, the principle, the source, and the efficient cause of the whole creation.

[16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. [17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[21] To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.


In these verses, God is saying that He looks at the works of believers, and He expects them to do penance, and have sorrow, as we are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. We are not to arrogantly walk around thinking we have the righteousness of Christ and believe we are rich and have need of nothing. That is not taught in scripture. Paul gives us the proper attitude in Philippians 3:

[11] If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. [12] Not as though I had already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, [14] I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded; and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you

We are not to act as if we have already arrived at salvation, but press on toward the prize. Penance is a way of life for the Christian. We have sorrow for sin out of love for God, and we do penance as we cannot allow evil to stand. Paul tells us in Ephesians 4, the way to live

[17] This then I say and testify in the Lord: That henceforward you walk not as also the Gentiles walk in the vanity of their mind, [18] Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts. [19] Who despairing, have given themselves up to lasciviousness, unto the working of all uncleanness, unto covetousness. [20] But you have not so learned Christ;

[21] If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who is corrupted according to the desire of error. [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: [24] And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth. [25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak ye the truth every man with his neighbour; for we are members one of another.

[26] Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger. [27] Give not place to the devil. [28] He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need. [29] Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[31] Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. [32] And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ.



It does not look like penance is man made, but very much taught is scripture. If we sin, we do not ignore it and think Jesus already paid for it, so there is nothing for me to do. We do penance to the full extent of our ability and press on for the prize of eternal life. We do not adopt the attitude of the Laodiceans and say to ourselves, "I am saved", there is no need for me to do anything. We flee the deadly sins of pride, lust, envy, wrath, greed, gluttony and sloth, and pursue the virtues of humility, chastity, kindness, patience, generosity, temperance, and fortitude. Those require work, and work we shall as Christ lives in us


Do you still say penance is wrong, or man made?
 
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Sola Scriptura means you test everything by Scripture.


It is true that Tradition does not contradict scripture, nor can it; however, human opinion is extremely varied on the interpretation of scripture. This is why we need Ecclesial authority as passed down by St Peter and the Apostles. If there were no authority outside scripture for interpretation, we would be following one of the myriad heresies that deceiving spirits had used to shipwreck the faith in the first few centuries. Arianism was very popular prior to the council on Nicaea, and it was even preferred by the Roman authorities, but the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, declared it the heresy that it is
 
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DragonFox91

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[QUOTE="boughtwithaprice, post: 76755341, member: 8500"]It is true that Tradition does not contradict scripture, nor can it; however, human opinion is extremely varied on the interpretation of scripture. This is why we need Ecclesial authority as passed down by St Peter and the Apostles. If there were no authority outside scripture for interpretation, we would be following one of the myriad heresies that deceiving spirits had used to shipwreck the faith in the first few centuries. Arianism was very popular prior to the council on Nicaea, and it was even preferred by the Roman authorities, but the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, declared it the heresy that it is[/QUOTE]
We seem to be in agreement
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hello BWAP,

Nice to see you again. Yes penance is indeed wrong and a man-made teaching and tradition as shown earlier through the the Roman Catholic definitions of how penance is defined and how penance is carried out when compared to the scriptures *see post # 467 linked. Happy to discuss what you have posted here. I have provided some comments below for your consideration.
I see what you are saying, but have you considered Revelation 3: 14-22 ?

[14] And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: [15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

"The Amen,": that is, the true one, the Truth itself; the Word and Son of God. The beginning-- that is, the principle, the source, and the efficient cause of the whole creation.

[16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. [17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[21] To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches....

Revelation 3:19 does not say to go and do "penance" according to the Roman Catholic interpretation of the word "penance" as shown already in post # 467 linked. In fact in the original Greek the word "penance" is not even used. In 99% of the bible translations the Greek word μετανοέω is translated as "repent" not "penance." The Greek word here is μετανοέω and means an inward sorry for sin and a changing of mind or turning away from sin (links provided). The problem here however is how the Roman Catholic interprets the word "penance" and how it describes how penance is to be carried out (the process) as shown in the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Roman Catholic Catechism as shown in post # 467 linked and how these definitions compare with the scriptures.

There is no scripture that says....
  1. Penance in the Catholic sense is a sacrament (Catholic Encyclopedia)
  2. Penance is essentially an act of devotion - a work to obtain forgiveness of sins (CCC1430)
  3. Penance is only done after baptism not before baptism (Catholic Encyclopedia; CCC 980)
  4. Penance is necessary to gain salvation (CCC 980)
  5. Penance needs a Catholic Priest for forgiveness (Catholic Encyclopedia)
  6. Penance and forgiveness of sins through the Priest is only found in the Catholic Church (CCC 982)
  7. Penance can be performed for the dead along with indulgences (CCC 1032)
  8. Penance restored the sinner to the Roman Catholic Churc (CCC 1469)
The Roman Catholic Church teaching (definitions and the process of conducting penance) of penance is not in the scriptures and is an act of man to seek Gods' forgiveness in order to be made right with God. Where as the scriptures teach that repentance is a gift of God we receive through faith or believing and following what God's Word says. That means yes there is a change that happens in our lives but it is an inward change of heart through believing and following what Gods' Word says which is a gift of God. *see Ezekiel 18:30; Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 3:19. We receive this gift of God by believing what Gods’ Word says and not of works lest any man should boast. *Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts of the Apostles 11:18; Romans 2:4. Therefore, there is nothing that we can do to earn God’s forgiveness through penance and indulgences. We no longer need earthly Priests according to the scriptures. Jesus is now our great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *see Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27.

As posted earlier, we can seek Gods’ forgiveness for our sins today and now this very moment, directly from Jesus himself who is now our great high Priest who ministers on our behalf *Hebrews 8:1-6 by believing His Word and seeking Him through prayer and claiming His promises written in 1 John 2:2-3; 1 John 1:9; John 3:16. According to the scriptures there is only one mediator because God and man and that is Jesus Christ the righteous *see 1 Timothy 2:5. Repentance comes before baptism not after baptism *Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Baptism is a sign in all those who have already repented of their sins and seek to walk in newness of life through faith in God’s Word *see Romans 6:1-23. There is no scripture anywhere in the bible telling us to do penance or to do indulgences for the dead just as there is no scriptures anywhere that says that penance restores us to the Roman Catholic Church through a Catholic priest.

The scriptures teach that we are all made right with God by faith apart from the works of the law (Romans 3:24; 4:3, 5; 5:1, 9; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8). We are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 9:14; 1 John 1:7). Christ's blood cleanses us from unrighteousness (1 John 1:9; Psalms 103:12; Romans 11:6; Galatians 2:21; 3:21-22). It is Christ alone who made the atonement by which our sins are forgiven (Hebrews 1:3; 2:17; 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24). Not a Roman Catholic Priest. Therefore "Penance" and "Repentance" are not the same thing according to the scriptures. There is no scripture in all of the bible that tells us anywhere to conduct Roman Catholic penance which is not biblical and simply a man-made teaching and tradition that leads us away from the scriptures.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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We seem to be in agreement
There is nothing wrong with the teachings and traditions of men in and of themselves. According to Jesus however the teachings and traditions of men are wrong and are bad when they lead us away from believing and obeying what Gods Gods' Word says to break the commandments of God. Jesus says when we do this we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9.
 
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Hello BWAP,

Nice to see you again. Yes penance is indeed wrong and a man-made teaching and tradition as shown earlier through the the Roman Catholic definitions of how penance is defined and how penance is carried out when compared to the scriptures *see post # 467 linked. Happy to discuss what you have posted here. I have provided some comments below for your consideration.
The topic is "Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?" Since Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura, an argument that presumes that each detail of something or each word used must be specifically detailed in the Bible to meet your satisfaction is lost on Catholics. Since Catholics chose the 73 books of the Bible, and while all the Bible is beneficial and had to comply with Catholic teaching as passed down through the Apostles and popes, never was the Bible intended to be an instruction book or a dictionary or contain the entirety of God's Word. It is a collection of writings that the Catholic Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, deemed God-breathed. It is important to note that the Bible was not originally written in English, and language is ever-changing. One of the sacraments Jesus gave us we call the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. As per the Bible, God working through Catholic priests, forgives or retains sins, assuring us that they will be thus forgiven or retained in Heaven. This is one of many of the beautiful gifts given to us by God. This was a gift given to us before one word of the New Testament was written. The forgiveness of sins, as is documented in the Bible, is what is important, not the popular English name. "Confession" is sometimes used to refer to the sacrament, I usually refer to it as the "Sacrament of Reconciliation," but the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" is more formally used. The usages of the word translated into the English "penance" or "confession" or "reconciliation" are quite irrelevant when the words do not refer to the sacrament. What is important is the sacrament itself, and there are numerous references to this Catholic Church sacrament or related text in the Bible.
Matt 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:18
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on
Mark 2:10-12
"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"-- he said to the paralytic, "I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home." He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone.
John 20:23
"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
1 John 1:9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name's sake.
Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The topic is "Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?" Since Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura, an argument that presumes that each detail of something or each word used must specifically detailed in the Bibleto meet your satisfaction is lost on Catholics. Since Catholics chose the 73 books of the Bible, and while all the Bible is beneficial and had to comply with Catholic teaching as passed down through the Apostles and popes, never was the Bible intended to be an instruction book or a dictionary or contain the entirety of God's Word. It is a collection of writings that the Catholic Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, deemed God-breathed. It is important to note that the Bible was not originally written in English, and language is ever-changing. One of the sacraments Jesus gave us we call the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. As per the Bible, God working through Catholic priests, forgives or retains sins, assuring us that they will be thus forgiven or retained in Heaven. This is one of many of the beautiful gifts given to us by God. This was a gift given to us before one word of the New Testament was written. The forgiveness of sins, as is documented in the Bible, is what is important, not the popular English name. "Confession" is sometimes used to refer to the sacrament, I usually refer to it as the "Sacrament of Reconciliation," but the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation" is more formally used. The usages of the word translated into "penance" or "confession" or "reconciliation" are quite irrelevant when the words do not refer to the sacrament. What is important is the sacrament itself, and there are numerous references to this Catholic Church sacrament are in the Bible.
Matt 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:18
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on
Mark 2:10-12
"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"-- he said to the paralytic, "I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home." He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone.
John 20:23
"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
1 John 1:9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name's sake.
Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
According to the scriptures, eternal life is only received by faith in Gods' Word *John 3:36, not by following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9. Therefore we can only live by the scriptures alone *Matthew 4:4. That is by believing and following what Gods Word says *1 John 5:2-4; John 17:17. This is why the scriptures are the only rule of faith as to what is true and what is not true *Romans 3:4 and why the bible alone is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path when the road is dark and narrow *Psalms 119:105; Proverbs 6:23. This begs the question how can we find our way when the road is dark and narrow our lamp goes out *Matthew 7:13-14? Jesus says if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. According to Jesus we worship God in Spirit and in truth by believing and following what His Word says *John 4:23-24. God's people are in every Church according to John 10:16 but the house is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the farther in Spirit and in truth. God is calling us all where ever we might be to return to His Word *John 17:17; Revelation 18:1-6; Revelation 14:7-12.

Take Care.
 
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Valletta

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My argument is that eternal life is only received by faith in Gods' Word. Therefore we can only live by the scriptures alone. That is by believing and following what Gods Word says. This is why the scriptures are the only rule of faith as to what is true and what is not true *Romans 3:4 and why the bible alone is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path when the road is dark and narrow *Psalms 119:105; Proverbs 6:23. This begs the question how can we find our way when the road is dark and narrow our lamp goes out *Matthew 7:13-14? Jesus says if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. According to Jesus we worship God in Spirit and in truth by believing and following what His Word says *John 4:23-24. God's people are in every Church according to John 10:16 but the house is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the farther in Spirit and in truth. God is calling us all where ever we might be to return to His Word *John 17:17; Revelation 18:1-6.
I understand. Catholics also believe that a personal relationship with Jesus is important and do not believe that the entirety of God's Word is in the Bible. Had we believed that when choosing the books of the Bible the Catholic Church would have put that in a preface or the like. I think it is more important what we have in common, the reverence of God's Word.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I understand. Catholics also believe that a personal relationship with Jesus is important and do not believe that the entirety of God's Word is in the Bible. Had we believed that when choosing the books of the Bible the Catholic Church would have put that in a preface or the like. I think it is more important what we have in common, the reverence of God's Word.
I understand what your saying but Catholics did not give anyone the scriptures. The scriptures were given by God through His prophets and Apostles and were already in circulation among all Church's outside of the Roman Catholic Church in all Church's. God is in control of His Word and has given His Word to everyone who seeks to know it. We can only have a personal relationship with Jesus through faith in His Word and as Jesus says not through following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods' Word to break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9. (See list of Roman Catholic teaching and traditions that are not biblical here linked). Happy to work through the linked list if your interested and show why these teachings are not biblical and lead us away from Gods' Word if your interested. "Penance" is already started here and here linked.

Take Care.
 
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Lost4words

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Sola scriptura was invented at the reformation.

Jesus sent out His Apostles to 'preach' the good news.

Through 1,500 years this carried on, via Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. It is very much alive today, in the Catholic church.

Even when the scriptures were assembled into the Canon that we have today, via the Holy Spirit, working in and through the Catholic church, into the Bible, people still had to be preached to.

It is only since the birth of Protestantism that we now have 1,000's of denominations, using 'sola scriptura' to teach a multitude of different interpretations, views, opinions, beliefs on what God is telling us in His written word!

Its a complete mess now. God's word has different meanings to different denominations! They all think only 'they' know the truth.
 
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coffee4u

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I see what you are saying, but I don't see how this relates to what Mr Peterson said. An observation is not a generalization, when you have groups that actually claim sola scriptura. They state that as their position, so they deny authority above them, and their interpretation becomes their teaching. They are no longer taught by God, but heap up for themselves teachers that tell them what their itching ears want to hear. We have thousands of groups that have many different interpretations. so who is right?

His 'observation' was not an actual observation but a generalization of an entire group.

I believe in sola scriptura, do I think I understand every single verse in the Bible? No.
So I already proved him wrong.

If he wants to mention a particular person or group let him do so by displaying something this person or group has actually said that can be critiqued.
For example the JW's (Jehovah Witnesses) claim that the Star of Bethlehem was created by Satan in an attempt to kill Jesus. This can be found on their web site. https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-stories/6/star-bethlehem-jesus-birth/
When you make a claim "X people believe this" you better have hard facts to back you up such as their written statement of faith otherwise all we have is your word on it.
Why should anyone accept that? Because someone went through seminary college? Because someone has some letters after there name proclaiming them to be a doctor or professor? Phht. Have you seen what passes as a professor these days?
Having some degree does not indicate everything you say is true.
 
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