Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?

[boughtwithaprice]

None taken. Feel free to only respond to LGW, but I may participate in the thread as well. You can choose to ignore my posts and only answer LGW, I'm fine with that.

To answer your question: I don't believe the first definition from my previous post, which is describing self-punishment, is scripturally supported.





What you're describing is a person who is still holding on to sin, and finds it punishing to have to deny their own flesh. What does Jesus say in Matthew 11?

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

If His yoke is easy and His burden light, then not walking after the flesh is not punishment, but a delight. Notice, Jesus mentions rest twice. Does this sound like punishment?

Take a look at how the Amplified Bible expounds upon the verses above.

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavily burdened [by religious rituals that provide no peace], and I will give you rest [refreshing your souls with salvation]. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me [following Me as My disciple], for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest (renewal, blessed quiet) for your souls. For My yoke is easy [to bear] and My burden is light.”
​

Denying the flesh is not punishment, it is freedom from the bondage of sin. Once you're free, it's not burdensome anymore, it is lifting the weight off of your shoulders.

Paul, in Romans, describes the correct perspective concerning sin.

Romans 6:4-7 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
​

If the body of sin is destroyed in the renewal of the body and the mind, there is no self-punishment whatsoever.

Romans 2:12 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
​

Proof that there is no self-punishment in following Jesus, but there is instead rest.

This is a misunderstanding that, unfortunately, many Christians believe, that we are in a constant state of punishment because of sin, when scripture calls for the body of sin to die, and to raise into a newness of life (Romans 6:8-18), which is freedom from sin.

Straddling the fence, and holding onto sin is not something we were ever called to do. I can see why it would be considered self-punishing, if that's what people are doing.

John 8:11, Jesus told the woman, "Go, and sin no more." He didn't mention self-punishment, only newness of life, free from sin, in one simple powerful statement.

You bring up good points, and it is a delight to serve the Lord. This comes from the gift of Charity that we receive when we are born again, but when we are born again we are as babes in Christ. Our bodies still war with our spirit, as Paul says in Ephesians put on the armor of God so that you may be able to resist in the evil day.
Penance is a punishment for the body not as slavery or criminal sentence, but military discipline. As physical exercise builds a strong body, spiritual exercise builds a strong spirit.
Basic training exercises for newly born again are prayer, fasting and alms giving. Prayer, we give our time, fasting we give our bodies, and alms giving we give our earthly goods, as we belong totally to God, and everything we have belongs to the Lord. Penance is a discipline whereby we become fit for service in God’s kingdom.
Without penance, we become as the Church of Laodicea in Revelation.


[16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. [17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[21] To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Alright, so you would agree that Gods' salvation is only given to God's true Church right? Do you agree?

Your response here...

Christ is not divided, there is only one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, as the Nicene creed affirms and is agreed by this web site, Christian Forums, yes I agree. We are either members of Christ’s body or we are not, there are not two or more bodies.

No one said that Christ is divided. So who is Christs true Church according to the scriptures and how do the scriptures define who Gods' Church is; do you know? I am genuinely interested in seeing your view first before I share what I believe the bible teaches and defines as Gods' true Church is.

 

[The Liturgist]

As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with man made teachings and traditions if they are not in contradiction to the scriptures and are supported by the scriptures.

On this point we are actually in agreement. This is why I believe that the Eucharist actually becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord. It is also why I seek ecumenical harmony between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox, because if we understand Sola Scriptura to mean what you just said, or use the Anglican trilateral of Scripture, Tradition and Reason, we come up with principles equivalent to the RC Magisterium or Orthodox Holy Tradition, both of which hold Scripture as central.

Actually, as I see it, the main denominations which are actually contradicting Sola Scriptura as understood by Protestants, and Holy Tradition as understood by the Orthodox, and the Magisterium as understood by Rome, are the far left clergy in the mainline churches who intentionally advocate for ignoring or deprecating verses in the Old and New Testament which declare, for instance, homosexuality to be sinful, and who usually support abortion and other evils.

There is a parish in the United Church of Canada which made me feel literally sick a few months ago when they performed doctor-assisted homicide, or euthanasia, on a member, in the context of a worship service. Basically, someone was killed, in church, in what was a written act of worship, in what is supposed to be a Christian church, although this is the same denomination that employs an Atheist as a pastor.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

On this point we are actually in agreement. This is why I believe that the Eucharist actually becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord. It is also why I seek ecumenical harmony between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox, because if we understand Sola Scriptura to mean what you just said, or use the Anglican trilateral of Scripture, Tradition and Reason, we come up with principles equivalent to the RC Magisterium or Orthodox Holy Tradition, both of which hold Scripture as central.

Actually, as I see it, the main denominations which are actually contradicting Sola Scriptura as understood by Protestants, and Holy Tradition as understood by the Orthodox, and the Magisterium as understood by Rome, are the far left clergy in the mainline churches who intentionally advocate for ignoring or deprecating verses in the Old and New Testament which declare, for instance, homosexuality to be sinful, and who usually support abortion and other evils.

There is a parish in the United Church of Canada which made me feel literally sick a few months ago when they performed doctor-assisted homicide, or euthanasia, on a member, in the context of a worship service. Basically, someone was killed, in church, in what was a written act of worship, in what is supposed to be a Christian church, although this is the same denomination that employs an Atheist as a pastor.

Yes thanks for that Lit. This is the key to my view on the scriptures. There is nothing wrong with traditions if they are not in contradiction to the scriptures and are supportive of what the scriptures teach. The only problem with the teachings and traditions of men is what Jesus points out in Matthew 15:3-9 which is when the teachings and traditions of men lead us away from God's Word to break the commandments of God. In this case Jesus says we are not worshiping God. So it is important to make this distinction I believe. Thanks for your comments but as much as I hope for harmony between all Church's I do not think that will ever be the case due to conflicting beliefs. Harmony and unity only come by faith in the truth of Gods Word as Gods guides us through His Spirit. There are some truths in common between many Church's and on these views we hold in common there can be harmony but outside of these only disagreement I guess. This of course does not mean that God does not have His people in every Church. I believe that according to the scriptures Gods' people are in every Church (John 10:16) living up to all the light of God's Word that He has revealed to them but the hour is coming and now is according to Jesus that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). God is calling us all wherever we might be to worship Him in Spirit and in truth and to return to His Word.

 

[rturner76]

I believe one does need to pay attention to tradition also as it was in place before the New Testament "scriptura."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe one does need to pay attention to tradition also as it was in place before the New Testament "scriptura."

There has always been scripture though before the Church existed. Before the new testament scriptures there was Jesus and the old testament scriptures. As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are not in contradiction to the scriptures and are supportive of what the scriptures teach. Traditions are only wrong as Jesus points out in Matthew 15:3-9 when the teachings and traditions of men lead us away from God's Word to break the commandments of God. In this case Jesus says we are not worshiping God putting the teachings of men before the Words of God.

 

[rturner76]

There has always been scripture though before the Church existed. Before the new testament scriptures there was Jesus and the old testament scriptures. As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are not in contradiction to the scriptures and are supportive of what the scriptures teach. Traditions are only wrong as Jesus points out in Matthew 15:3-9 when the teachings and traditions of men lead us away from God's Word to break the commandments of God. In this case Jesus says we are not worshiping God putting the teachings of men before the Words of God.

Fair enough

 

[Valletta]

I believe one does need to pay attention to tradition also as it was in place before the New Testament "scriptura."

The Word of God too was with God's people even before the OT.

 

[rturner76]

The Word of God too was with God's people even before the OT.

So we don't need the NT? Isn't the NT where most Christian theology lives?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Word of God too was with God's people even before the OT.

True enough. The scriptures come from Gods Word which are the recorded written Words of God. The only way we know about God's spoken Words is through the scriptures.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So we don't need the NT? Isn't the NT where most Christian theology lives?

What does Matthew 4:4 say?

 

[Valletta]

True enough. The scriptures come from Gods Word which are the recorded written Words of God. The only way we know about God's spoken Words is through the scriptures.

Take Care.

That's hardly the only way we know of God's Word.

 

[Valletta]

So we don't need the NT? Isn't the NT where most Christian theology lives?

Why would you say that? I say we need as much of God's Word as we can get.

 

[rturner76]

What does Matthew 4:4 say?

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

How does that negate anything I've said?

 

[rturner76]

Why would you say that? I say we need as much of God's Word as we can get.

Because it seemed like you were saying oral tradition has no merit. If I was mistaken I apologize.

 

[Valletta]

Because it seemed like you were saying oral tradition has no merit. If I was mistaken I apologize.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are both very important.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are both very important.

What about the so called "sacred tradition" that replaces God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments with the so called "Lords day" as being Sunday which is not biblical leading many to break the commandments of God that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

How does that negate anything I've said?

It means we are to live and have life by all of God's Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's hardly the only way we know of God's Word.

How can you know God's Word outside of the scriptures? - You cannot. Even if someone tells you about Gods Word it still comes from the scriptures today which is why it is written "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" - Romans 10:17.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Your response here...

No one said that Christ is divided. So who is Christs true Church according to the scriptures and how do the scriptures define who Gods' Church is; do you know? I am genuinely interested in seeing your view first before I share what I believe the bible teaches and defines as Gods' true Church is.

You made the list, I asked you a question about it. I see I made a mistake in pointing to topic 11, I actually meant point 12.
You say that “penance is required for salvation” is a man made teaching or tradition.
I asked you if you are saying that repentance is not required to receive salvation? It is a simple question. If you don’t want to answer, let me know.
We will go over the other points in due time.
Answering my question with a question is not a response, it is a distraction or evasion.
You made the statement, and it is a serious charge. Do you wish to clarify your remark or recant? As it stands, it appears to be calumny.
Is that what you want?