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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Good point.

    Not just for you Dr. Jack..maybe others can answer.

    The hard questions to answer are...Just what does "fall away" mean?
    What does restore to repentance mean? As in "restore them again to repentance"
    What does "enlightened" mean?

    Who was the author of Hebrews writing to? Saved Jews who didn't grow in their faith now thinking they need to add to Jesus work on the cross...requiring circumcision?
    Was it unsaved people simply tasting, checking out Christianity?
     
  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I never open a commentary, but will look up Barnes' Notes on the verse some times, he often gives options and not just his conclusion. They were not made to be put in a book and sold by him, which means it was not written for sales.
     
  3. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Wow, you need more than I can provide via this website, you need to get with some truly active Christians and join them in their work (get off self and on to others).
    It is very macho of you to be willing to pay the piper and take the punishment you fully deserve, but that will not make God happy. God wants you to wimp out, give up and surrender to Him and he will shower you with gifts.
     
  4. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I will be very brief, as it is time for me to retire for the evening ...

    The first rule of hermeneutics is that context determines meaning.

    What is the subject of the context? IOW

    What is the author speaking of in this text?>.

    That is a great question ... more than I can address tonight.

    I think it is quite clear that the audience was saved.
     
  5. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    it was hebrew christians the book is written to.
     
  6. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I have studied this verse for years and so far have determined we don't have enough information to conclude it talks about losing ones salvation.
    Yesterday I reviewed several commentaries and got several different interpretations. Everything from the people being saved, people just testing christianity, the context of losing salvation was hypothetical..I even watched a youtube where they tried to align it with Revelations.
     
  7. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    I tend to agree. So far I have to land on them being Hebrew Christians who received the faith and were saved. But, did nothing to grow. Over time they may have mixed their old Jewish religious ways with the work of Christ ...fallen away...

    That's where it gets complicated.
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I have purposely been waiting for gradyII to give me a response to my last question before addressing this further.

    According to one of his previous comments, he has presented himself as ready to defend his position on this text ... unfortunately for him, he has made a statement concerning verse one that he cannot support.

    I an ready to continue, but cannot do so until we resolve the issue he has thus far presented.
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    If you want to look at commentaries "Barnes Notes" are free on line and look up Heb. 6:4.
     
  10. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    you seem to be more open minded than some of the others here, and that is a good thing.

    Most of the early church believed in apostacy doctrines, and salvic repentance. Not until hundreds of years later did theology like OSAS come in, mainly by calvinism.

    and that is because when one reads the Bible, with no commentaries no sermons no external sources, it tends to read like one can forfeit salvation.

    there are many verses for this, probably half a dozen.

    but for sake of simplicity I only mentioned one in the OP, hebrews 6.

    it is the one that has the most criticism from other theologians, but clearly the verse talks about more than simply "not growing." because later in the chapter, it talks about pruning away the branches that don't bear fruit.

    as it does also in the gospels at least four times.

    I don't take this debate too seriously, as I know what the scriptures teach, but I am trying to help others as well.

    here are two important resources for debating this topic in the future,

    this is the first sermon that (as a calvinist), converted me to this type of soteriology:


    He is by far one of the most gifted teachers in the world, as you will see by listening to his (easy to graps method of teaching), I recommend that anyone get his (through the Bible MP3, set for 100$)
    I have gone through roughly a third of the Bible with his teachings,

    Here is the Hebrews 6 passage, check it out:
    Seachlight with Jon Courson

    and here is a written form of the above message for reference, as well as another commentary:
    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx

    here is some of my inpute:

    I fully do not comprehend grace sometimes, many times. You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends.
     
  11. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Hebrews

    The purpose of this study is not "basic principles" or "basic doctrines". The purpose of this study is to examine 1) Who this text was written to; and what is the message, specifically involving verses 4 through 6. I will also touch on verses 7 through 10, as they shed additional light upon the text in question.

    In my previous comment (verse 1) I broke down verse one, showing that the Apostle had previously told his audience that when they should be teachers, they are yet needing to be taught. As he enters Chapter 6 he has the desire to move on from the basic principles (two of which are named in verse one ... which I briefly expounded upon; and four more listed in verse two, which I feel no need to expound upon).

    Then in verse three we read,

    "And this will we do, if God permit."

    To very briefly summarize, the Apostle is saying,

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; And this will we do, if God permit."

    In other words, you should already know your salvation is secure in Christ, so let's move on to the doctrine of holiness, and this we will do, if God permit.

    6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews

    Once again I will break this down as needed.

    1) "For it is impossible"

    Now I know that God told us in Matthew 19:26 that with God, all things are possible ... but when God tells us there is something that is impossible, we had better take notice. As we proceed with the text, we will notice the reason of the impossibility.

    The Holy Spirit wants us to understand that what is about to be spoken of, is absolute. "For it is impossible".

    2) "for those who were once enlightened"

    These are amazing words! Herein lay words that provide the foundation of the words to follow.

    When we are lost, God reveals who He is, (Roman's 1:18-21); but when we hear the gospel, we must face the reality of who we are, and what we justly deserve. We are made see that we are the children of wrath, (Ephesians 2:3). We are also made to see that "hell" is a place of torment that is far beyond anything we could ever imagine. We see in Luke 16 some things about "hell", that tell us, this is not the place to spend eternity.

    A) 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke

    There is no relief of the torments of the flames. (vs. 24) The torments are so bad that the former rich man wanted his five brethren to be warned not to come. (vs. 27 and 28)

    We learn from Jesus that hell is a place which the worms are ever tormenting us.

    9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark

    These exact words are repeated in verses 46 and 48.

    And so we return to our text ...

    "for those who were once enlightened"

    We also learn of God's grace "Christ Jesus". We learn that God loved us so much, that while we we yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans

    In many versions the word "commendeth" is replaced with words such as "showed", "demonstrated", or "proved"; but these words fail to present the meaning of what Christ actually did. The English "commend" carries the meaning of standing beside a person, while speaking on their behalf. In this case (context), it is Jesus who willingly stands before the Father, and introduces us to Him (the Father), using His (Jesus) position as Son, to make us acceptable to the Father!

    "for those who were once enlightened"

    Now let us narrow our examination ...

    Let us focus on the word, "once".

    If the "enlighten[ment]" of the Holy Spirit was genuine, (and we have no reason to believe it wasn't), it is an enlightenment that only needs to be given once, although it may be revisited, and enhanced many times over. The true enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is what we see when reading the words of the Apostle Paul ...

    7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

    "for those who were once enlightened"

    Once the Holy Spirit has given you enlightenment, a change will occur.

    3) "and have tasted of the heavenly gift"

    Now many Christian's will look at the word "gift", and assume this is "salvation" ... after all, the Scripture does teach that salvation is a gift. I however do not think this is the focus of the Apostle. What then is this "gift"?

    Is it not the Person Jesus Christ? Is not Jesus Christ the One who embodies Eternal Life, and the love which delivers us from that which we justly deserve?

    "and have tasted of the heavenly gift

    Do we do much do much more than taste the goodness of Jesus Christ while in this mortal body?

    4) "and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost"

    Now we see a direct connection to the Holy Spirit. When we are made "partakers of the Holy Spirit", (it is witnessed by the other principles listed herein), and we then can clearly see the present text is being presented to believers ... (for the reason which I shall soon present).

    The Holy Spirit has begun His ministry in the heart of the believer; such ministries include: (As well as many others)
    A) Regeneration (Titus 3:5);
    B) Being sealed in Christ (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30)
    C) Filling for power to perform our ministry (Acts 13:9 and 52)

    5) "And have tasted the good word of God"

    In my comment above, I stated that some of these principles are evidence that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit. When we are truly born again, we should have a desire to taste, and yes, even eat the "good word of God" daily. If we do not have this desire, it may be an indication that we have not been truly saved.

    Our "salvation experience" must be in accordance with the Scriptures. So many are led to pray a "sinners prayer" not having any knowledge of repentance, or knowledge of a tual guilt before God. For some, it is nothing more than turning over a 'new leaf' or something of that sort.

    Sadly, there have been many that were members of a particular church that never preached a true gospel message, that would find themselves in an evangelistic service, walk forward, only to be told that their past church membership just needs to be reestablished, and they'll be just fine.

    How can we taste the good word of God unless we have a longing to have it? Our churches so often tell us how much God wants us happy, (or rich), and fail to deliver the good words of God.

    But here, in this text, the Apostle declares that we have indeed tasted of the good words of God, showing us that his intended audience is the true believer.

    6) "and the powers of the world to come"

    This is truly one of the greatest witnesses that this text is to believers. Not only have these believers enjoyed all the before mentioned principles, but they have also tasted "the powers of the world to come"!

    The powers of the realm that lay beyond our mortal bodies! One of the great themes of Hebrews is, "Entering into His rest". Entering into a life that goes beyond reliance of the abilities of our flesh, and trusting fully in the gracious power of the Holy Spirit.

    When we realize that our salvation is secure in Christ, and that God has called us into the service of being Ambassadors for Christ, (part of that Holy Spirit enlightenment), we realize what an honor it is to be identified with our Creator, and Saviour God!

    God freely allows his power to flow through us to acheive His work, thereby glorifying the Father.

    This is the believer that the Apostle is writing to in this wonderful text!
     
  12. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Do you have an answer to my question ...

    Where is apostasy mentioned in verse one of Hebrews 6?

    One would think that with the resume you presented, that you would have this entire text exegeted in detail. I await your answer.
     
  13. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree with your view of losing ones salvation. There are many verses that say you can't lose it. No need to present them all to you again.
    At one time I thought like you. I even argued for OSNotAS. Then it dawned on me. If were saved by the works of Jesus on the cross then how can what I do maintain my salvation? I realized it can't.

    I think some people never really learn the ABC's of christianity. Drink milk. They go to church, taste it, do it, then just as the Hebrews add to the finished work of Christ on the cross with things like Jesus + circumcision. Jesus + the law. Jesus + salvation maintaining works.
    A person may be saved but later on add false theology and remain saved. The Hebrews believed then added on circumcision. If they preached that gospel to others there is no saving grace in their message. In a sense they are putting the cross to shame with the addition of circumcision to the work of Jesus on the cross.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  14. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Sir copy and pasted previous messages is not the best debate tactic.

    but
    sir as I mention before, everything is answered here:

    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx

    due to the length of your posts, I find it unreasonable for time sake to refute your points one by one as that would simply take too much time. I have provided half a dozen unrefuted verses, that you have not yet refuted in other places than hebrews 6. But if you are honestly searching for the truth regarding this, please read the document.
     
  15. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Active Member Supporter

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    AMEN!
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews

    So far, this text has revealed two major things:

    1) The audience of the Apostle are true believers in Christ; and
    2) What is about to be discussed "is impossible".

    The language is posed in an absolute way, so that it cannot be refuted.

    What are the next words of the Apostle?

    1) "If they shall fall away"

    The Apostle has made an airtight case that his audience is a group of truly born again believers.

    There are not many times which I take people to the Greek, but on rare occasions (such as this), I refer to the Greek to show the proper meaning of a word.

    A) "if" is rendered from the Greek
    και which is nearly always rendered "and". The KJ translators chose to render it "if", because they felt it rendered the entire context more easily.

    I think either "if" or "and" can fit nicely, in light of the Textual content.

    B) The key words we need to consider however are "fall away". The number one rule in hermeneutics is context, but we still must consider the Greek word used in this text.

    When most people see the words "fall away", they automatically assume this must be referring to 'apostasy' because in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the Greek ἀποστασία is rendered "falling away". However, here in Hebrews 6:6, the words fall away are NOT rendered from the Greek ἀποστασία, but rather the Greek παραπεσοντας. (From παρα meaning away, and πιπτω meaning to fall)

    The key here, is that the Greek does not support apostasy (a falling away that ends in loss of salvation) but rather, a falling away that only severe chastisement from God Himself can bring about.

    2) "to renew them again unto repentance"

    When a person first accepts Christ, that person does so by acknowledging the things covered in Part one of this study, to obtain salvation. When however that same person doesn't continue to grow AFTER having experienced the Grace of God, and that person chooses rather to fall away from that grace, the simplicity of the preaching of the word will no longer renew that godly sorrow that originally brought repentance. Why?

    3) "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh"

    By falling away in such measure, they behave in the same manner as those who did infact crucify Jesus. The One who graciously paid their redemption, is now being treated as their enemy.

    4) "and put him to an open shame"

    Imagine how our loving God is shamed as a disobedient child refuses to acknowledge the mercy, and grace of his Father.

    I have seen many times over the years when parents are shamed by the actions of their children. Children who were taught to be responsible, and make proper decisions in life. I have seen as they hang their heads in shame.

    I have also seen those children have to walk a very hard road that costed them great pain because of decisions they made. Finally, after hitting the very bottom, loosing all they had to loose, they were finally able to see the errors of their ways.

    A return to the service of Christ after such a falling away will not be through a simple presentation of the grace of God, but rather, through the Divine chastisement of God, as shown in Chapter 12.

    Hence, what this text presents is the great warning from God not to slide away from our faith by any means whatsoever. To do so is to put yourself in an extremely dangerous position. Why should we suffer the severe chastisement of God, because we fall away as His chilfren, when the simple path is to willingly be obedient as His child.

    We never become unborn spiritually any more than we can become unborn physically, but the chastising hand of our heavenly Father will reach out until it accomplishes its purpose.

    6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrews

    I will not labor on these verses other than to say that the Apostle here expresses the contrast between the believer, and the unbelievers. (The believer being the former, and the unbelievers the latter.)

    6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews

    This then becomes the assurance that we will always be the children of God once we've been born again; but it is wiser to be an obedient child, rather than a not so obedient child.
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    How many times must I tell you, I did read it.

    So you think that a person who is genuinely saved can't "loose" their salvation, but they can simply walk away from it.

    By the way, my answers are lengthy, and as thorough as I feel the need to make them, so that I am clearly understood.

    The article you present ignores a couple key passages of Scripture:

    I will simply present the most direct two texts, from the Apostle Paul.

    1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians

    4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians

    I would like to use another familiar text, along with an illustration to show that "walking away" isn't an option.

    10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John

    I'm not going to give the "eternal life" and "never perish" arguments, (howbeit they are solid arguments).

    Rather, I will focus on how the entire Godhead is involved in keeping us secure in our salvation.

    1) We first have the fact that we are Redemptively placed IN Christ.
    2) We then have the fact that we are placed IN the Father's hand.
    3) We finally have the fact that the Holy Spirit "seals" us, "ye are sealed unto the day of redemption". (This isn't the Redemption of the soul, but rather, the final time when we are united, "body, soul, and spirit" in His presence forever.

    Now the illustration to make the application ...

    When my mother used to do canning "way back" ... she would get out her Mason jars, a lid for each jar, and a rubber "seal" to complete each set.

    After preparing the food that was to be preserved, she would meticulously wipe the rim of each jar, check each lid, then the seal to insure preservation.

    She would then fill the jar all the way to the top, then quickly place the rubber seal and the lid carefully on the jar, then tighten it as tight as she could.

    The contents of the jar was hot when it was put into the jar. As the food would cool, it began to contract, causing a vacuum. That vacuum would cause the lid to 'pop' downward, which made that "popping" sound that Mom loved to hear.

    That "pop" meant that lid had been drawn down in a sufficient amount to cause the lid to become tight enough to "seal" the contents in the jar.

    The only way to get the food out of that jar was to physically break the seal. It is impossible for the food inside the jar to break that seal!

    In other words, it just can't simply, walk out. Why? Because it is sealed in the jar.

    Here is the application ...

    When we turn to Christ for salvation, we know we NEED His deliverance from the wrath we so deserve.

    We should be taught of the reality of hell, and its torments. It is something that no same person who has been presented with that truth would want to enter willingly, or otherwise.

    We willingly come to Christ desiring to be delivered, and trust fully in His ability to do just that. In other words, we aren't forced into being delivered from the hell we know we justly deserve. As a matter of fact, when I had salvation explained to me, I was so glad to hear that even though I would sin again, like my earthly father, my Heavenly Father wasn't going to kick me out as I learned to live for Him. Rather, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit would together keep me secure, all the days of my life.

    I was in the Father's hand (the jar); I was in the Son (the lid); and I was sealed with the Holy Spirit (the seal).

    I VOLUNTARILY placed myself in their care, trusting them to keep me secure, all the days of my life.

    What about "walking away"?

    First, I would have to ask, Did you understand that you were (and are) being saved from that which you justly deserve? And that torment isn't very pretty?
    Second, did you not understand that you would be sealed, for your own protection?
    Third, Is there any sane person who knowing the torments of hell would willingly choose to step out of God's gracious hand?
    Finally, SINCE (not if) the Scripture teaches we are "sealed", how do you suppose you can break that seal? Are you mightier than the Holy Spirit?
     
  18. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Yep, Amen!
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    sir, faith is not a work. Nor is losing faith a work. God won't force you to be saved if you don't want to. So ultimately you believe God forces your faith upon you, which is not what a gentleman would do. If forcing oneself on a woman is considered rape, so too is God forcing himself upon his bride, to make them believe Him.
     
  20. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Because of the sheer length of the errors in these posts, I do not have time to reply. But I can repeat verses that you don't address, and/or address wrongly as well as provide several logical reasons for apostacy in the church logically speaking. Now I would ask that since you have lots of time, that you do bullet points and adress each section. As this will cause you to truly read and ponder the material.


    This is the topic that was recently brought up...


    do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

    as in this verse:
    Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

    if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

    Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?

    ----------------------


    The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


    The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


    “Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

    Mat 13:6


    “But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

    Mat 13:7


    “And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

    Mat 13:8


    “But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    Mat 13:9


    “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


    Mat 13:18

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    and part three:

    When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. Pornography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to porn. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to porn, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.

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    I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy porn. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child pornography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched: Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile


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    Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?


    U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children
     
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