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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    [/QUOTE]
    So far we have different interpretations of 1 john passage, you have not refuted my interpretation, and I believe my interpretation includes your and mine. So I believe my interpretation is including a more systematic approach to include every other verse regarding this. You have to remember salvatio is set, our faith is secure. But in other ways temptation always lingers at the door. I just heard about John Wimber's closest brothers in the Lord fell away. Three of the men who were closest to him, whom he loved and treated as his sons, all fell into temptation and moral failure. They fell away. When I was a calvinist in central valley california, I would travel two cities away to a great college group. We met the most on fire christians from an hour away in all directions that were college age. We had wonderful fellowship. One man was in my wedding. Later this man would reject his faith, and would lead three other college age kids to also become athiests. I found three of them on Facebook recently, 15 years later, they are cynical of Christianity and the bible, and mock it frequently. This goes to prove that while you are saved from any sin by grace, those sins can still cause doubt in the salvation message in your heart. No man can come from outside and curse you, but personal sin can cause one to start doubting the love of Jesus. "Why did God allow me to fall in this way, why hasn't he allowed me victory over this sin, am I even saved?" Why doesn't anyone else have this problem?" So such a person will go from doubting God and salvation to eventually regretting that he tried to repent at all. He starts to see that his repentance failed because it's not a problem with him but on those forcing their morality on others. Christians. Those are the ones causing this problem I am having. They start hating christians and specifically Jesus. God never left them, salvation was always intact and able to save, but the enemy caused them to doubt simply because of a sin that was harder and more stubborn than others. An addictive sin. Instead of getting counselling, buying a book on deliverance, and seeking pastoral help and accountability with other christians, he decided to do it on their own. Satan seen him walking alone and picked him out. Satan can't remove salvation but can cause you to doubt it, eventually shifting your love of God for hatred. You've forfeited salvation.
     
  2. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Let's talk about revelation and hebrews again:

    Revelation 2 talks about overcommers. Those who do well in their christian walk, many don't overcome the world, and this is where apostacy comes from.

    Hebrews 2:1 talks about drifting, hebrews 3:12-16 talks about doubting, hebrews 5:11-14 talks about dullness, and finally hebrews chapter 6 talks about departing in hebrews 6:4-6. There are four sequential warnings for hebrew christians, to not drift, doubt, have dullness of hearing which eventually leads to a christian departing from their faith. It's easy to say hey they were never saved. But remember hebrews was written for specifically hebrew christians that left judaism, they were saved
     
  3. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    That is a strawman argument, obviously if you think I am teaching “salvation-by-works” you did not red my post or I am not communicating to you?

    Just as you do nothing to earn, pay for, pay back to get or even maintain a birth right, you do not “work” to obtain a home in heaven.

    Do you agree we do not immediately start dwelling in heaven when we are converted?

    I believe we are given ownership (like a deed) of a home in heaven, but since it is truly ours (we own it), we can sell it or give it away.

    You said: “He's (Paul is) talking about gaining eternal life for OTHER PEOPLE, by sharing the gospel with them.”, but as you can read it is very specific and cannot be translated like you suggest: “…whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9 “Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” In the Greek the “will reap” goes back to the “whosoever” and not harvest.

    Ro. 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
     
  4. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Having proven my point concerning 1John 2:19, a point which while not convincing you is convincing to people like myself, yes let's consider those other passages.

    What does the Bible says of overcomers? "everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1John 5:4,5 "born of God" indicates an irreversible process, any rational person, like Nicodemus in his discussion recognized that using the term had implications to is. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!" If a person has been born, he cannot become unborn. And if a person has been born of God he is an overcomer. People who are not overcomers simply reveal that they had not been born of God.

    Of course typically you'll assume such and such a person was saved but went on to leave the faith or live in sin or such and so you develop you doctrine based on your assumptions, your misconstrued anecdoctal evidence, rather than upon the teachings of scripture.

    As for the hebrews passages I've already dealt with Hebrews 6. As for Heb 3:12
    " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." There are those who call themselves "brothers", of whom are many on these forums, who have unbelieving hearts. They don't actually believe the gospel. So just because they are called "brothers" doesn't mean they have been saved.

    Heb 3:14
    "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." What's really interesting about this verse in Heb is that way he says it. "Have" is perfect tense, which the Greek lexicon indicates means, "an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Here Hebrews says that something that occurred in the past is true only if a future condition is met. The only way the logic holds up is to infer that if the past condition is true, then the future condition is inevitable. In other words this basically teaches Eternal Security, or more precisely, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. For it logically eliminates the possibility of there being a person who in the past has come to share in Christ, but who doesn't endure to the end in that faith. (See also my comment on Heb 10:39 below which confirms this interpretation) There doesn't exist such a hypothetical scenario.

    Endurance in confidence of faith is not a condition to be saved, but rather an indication that one has been saved. This is the kind of confidence that the you-can-lose-your-salvation Christians don't have. I, for example, have eternal life. I have already past from death to life and am free of judgement leading to condemnation. Not only so but I am free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:1,2; John 5:24) I am confident of my destiny because I believe God's promise and that God is reliable to bring it to pass. Many Christian don't have that kind of confidence. They can't believe the gospel so they misread all kinds of things upon which salvation is allegedly contingent. They themselves, their unbelief, is reflected in many of these verses. "As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief." Heb 3:15-19

    I've already entered. I finished the straight and narrow path which few find, but I found it, and I followed it to the end and now have eternal life. All those who have come to believe the gospel of grace have arrived and possess eternal life. These others may still be seeking it whether on the wrong road or the right one. But they haven't got to the end yet.

    As you can see from the rhetoric much of Hebrews is speaking to followers of Christ who haven't arrived yet. They haven't entered eternal life. They have yet to be saved. And alongside them are those who have come to saving faith and have eternal life.

    Notice Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. That itself teaches the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints just as 1John 2:19 does. For how could he say "we are not of those who shrink back" if that's indeterminate being dependent upon indeterminate "free will"?

    I'm sure you see these verses in a different light. But that's how I and others of my kind view these verses.
     
  5. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I think I proved my point sufficiently to viewers. Of course not to you who, by your own admission, doesn't have eternal life.

    Glad you brought up Rom 2:7, a verse favored by salvation-by-works Christians, but misconstrued. Starting in Rom 1:18 up to Romans 3:20 Paul is talking about justification by the law. Rom 2:7 is about performance based justification. Not faith based justification. It's a matter of persisting in always doing good and as such never failing to do good. Paul concludes in Romans 3 that being justified in that manner is nonviable.

    Rom 3:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    And he makes the same comparison in Romans 10 between performance based justification and faith based justification.

    The error you have made is confusing the two ways of attaining justification. If you're claiming that you are seeking justification under the principle of Rom 2:7 then yes, you squarely fit in the Salvation-by-Works camp. You yourself have confirmed that.
     
  6. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Thank you for the reply, I took particular interest in your hebrews 3 passage, Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

    See sin can cause unbelief. So you have a problem with pastors and leaders that fall away. You assume they are not saved. I know your calvinism dictates that they must have never been saved. But like I said before I have more tools in my basket than you. I believe in carnal christians, false converts and apostates. So I don't twist salvation scriptures to my bias because I account for each situation. Some seeds fall on stony ground, others sprout quickly and the sun dries them out, some the birds take away. See the seed that satan takes never was planted and saved, the seed that sprouted and the weeds choked out was saved and started caring about the world. The one that spouted quickly and lacked roots is a new salvation that dies because he did not get plugged in to a fellowship church . So I understand the frustration of someone who is not a theologian and one upping you on scripture, but all I can say is humble yourself and pray. I have repeatedly shown at least three separate cases of apostacy explaining according to hebrews how the sequence of losing salvation occurs. Someone like the parable said was saved and lost it. Out of the three situations only one seed was never planted and was dead. So according to that parable there are twice the apostates as false converts. Just mattmatically speaking. The calvinist lumps everyone into false conversion. Just something to think about. I can quote commentaries and pastors that disagree with your interpretation but that is appealing to an authority that is not God's word. Anyway I don't expect you to change. But I post these things for other readers to see a proper refutation of OSAS. But like I said in other posts calvinism requires one to persevere in holiness, so when you have a carnal christian stuck in addictive sin, say smoking cigarettes, calvinism dictates according the the classical TULIP, that that person was never saved. My mother smoked cigarettes, that was her adfictive sin, but just because some is addicted to sin and is a carnal christian does not make them saved. So perseverance of holiness does not work for people like my mother. She was staunch calvinist too. But when people.research what calvinism is, they see this contradiction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I don't see that in that verse. The verse doesn't refer to the source of unbelief. It simply characterizes the heart as sinful and unbelieving. If a person has an unbelieving heart, he is by definition an unbeliever. So he's talking about brothers who have yet to come to faith. Granted their sinfulness may harden them to the point of leaving the Christian community, as also was no doubt the case in 1John 2:19 of those who left. But it doesn't mean they were saved to begin with.

    Those who have been saved have been born of God, of which it says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1JOhn 3:9 So it's not possible for those born of God to have a sinful unbelieving heart due to the fact they were born of God.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I have eternal life, but since it is truly mine I can give it away.
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    so someone has an unbelieving heart and acording to you they are unbelievers then why is he exhorting "brethren" to not have an unbelieving heart? According to your statement I quoted He is exhorting them to not become unbelievers and by definition that means not saved. I thought it was impossible to become an unbeliever (not saved) according to perseverance of the saints. Your posts refute OSAS, I see the deeper you get into scripture the more you see the truth, thats good, this is having a positive effect. good post. Your only option now is to back peddle and say that an unbeliever is a christian with doubt. Then the statement that "a person with an unbelieving heart is by definition an unbeliever, would be wrong, and that would be a fallacy called "moving the goal posts" which is a deceptive and errorsome way to debate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  10. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I already addressed that. Just because people attend a church and call themselves a Christian doesn't make them a genuine believer, many are still on the journey but haven't arrived. As I said if you notice the context in verse 14 he's not assuming that the one's he's talking about have come to know Christ.
     
  11. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I think you are missing the point: He is exhorting brethren to not become apostate, this verse is a proof text for my view. So someone has an unbelieving heart and according to you they are unbelievers then why is he exhorting "brethren" to not have an unbelieving heart? According to your statement I quoted He is exhorting them to not become unbelievers and by definition that means not saved. I thought it was impossible to become an unbeliever (not saved) according to perseverance of the saints?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  12. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Let me answer a question you pose in this comment ...
    I do not believe the torments of eternal damnation are equal for all people. (Just as rewards for the just are not the same for all the just ... where much is given; much is required.)

    Many people miss some of the simplest, yet most profoundly important texts of Scripture. One of those texts is Romans 1.

    1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans

    Here is a single sentence that most people simply ignore the most basic truth ... there are unrighteous men that hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

    Righteousness is our judicial position before God. (The righteous are saved; while the unrighteous are lost.) How can the lost hold the truth of God in unrighteousness?

    Here is the simple answer ... God hath shewed it to them.

    Calvinism teaches Total Depravity which says man is totally depraved and therefore cannot know the righteousness of God, he cannot understand anything about God, because he is totally depraved. Yet, This simple Scripture text says that God has indeed shewed it to them.

    How does this pertain to you question about apostasy?

    Because, I believe there are many unrighteous men teaching in our Bible colleges today.

    When a person preaches the gospel, and then says, simply pray this prayer and you're saved ... I absolutely cringe. Why? I believe a person must understand they are lost, (and why), prior to being able to "call upon the Name of the Lord for salvation.

    I think multitudes have prayed the "sinner's prayer" never having understood the slightest thing about repentance and actually deserving Hell. These people generally are taken into the church, life good moral lives, and yet never had a genuine salvation experience.

    I have met several people over the years who have been on the staff at a church for years, only to hear the gospel 25 years later, and come to the realization that they had never been saved, even though they not only understand the gospel message, but even taught it for years.

    I have also known people who I believe did have a genuine salvation experience, then backslide, and life in misery the rest of their life. They got angry over some issue, (they got offended), and refused to acknowledge that they over reacted, and it was easier to pretend to be happy, than is was to admit that they were as much at fault, as the person who had originally offended them.

    What I have noticed is that those who were genuinely saved, never reached apostasy ... while those who reached apostasy may have done many works FOR Christ, but have never actually understood the reality of the need for salvation.

    5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: Ephesians

    Since no man hates his own flesh, how much more would no man that really understands the reality of hell, ever allow himself to become subject to such torments? This is a clear indicator that the gospel message never really was understood, and therefore the person could never have actually been saved.

    This statement has nothing to do with arrogance on my part, but rather a simple logical approach to the truth of Scripture, especially the gospel.

    How can any person who has truly had the witness of the Holy Spirit concerning the torments of hell, ever undo such a conviction?
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    duplicate
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    This is the topic that was recently brought up...


    do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

    as in this verse:
    Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

    if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

    Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?

     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    [/QUOTE]

    I understand you all have questions on how eternal security (which is biblical), relates to apostacy and losing one's salvation. I found some commentaries that open it up, These are commentaries on the most controversial apostacy verse, hebrews 6:4. I suggest reading them thoroughly, one is from Jon Courson commentary through the Bible and other is from Teckton apologetics:

    it's several pages, and I will add it to the op:
    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    The real question is, turning away from God to what degree, or in what way?
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I have no questions about how eternal security relates to apostasy, I was addressing a question presented in a comment.

    I have no quarrels with Hebrews 6, but what I do know is that doesn't teach a loss of salvation.



    I understand you all have questions on how eternal security (which is biblical), relates to apostacy and losing one's salvation. I found some commentaries that open it up, These are commentaries on the most controversial apostacy verse, hebrews 6:4. I suggest reading them thoroughly, one is from Jon Courson commentary through the Bible and other is from Teckton apologetics:

    it's several pages, and I will add it to the op:
    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx[/QUOTE]
     
  18. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx[/QUOTE]
    His rejecting the idea that Heb 6 is talking about nominal brethren is completely based on his impression of the word "taste". He insists it means to fully consume. But see how the word is used elsewhere "they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted <1089> it, He would not drink." Mt 27:34

    So "taste" does not necessarily of itself encompass the concept of "consume". If people merely have a taste of Christianity, doesn't mean they've been born of God.
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    [/QUOTE]

    well sir, that is a very proud stance to take. We cannot be assured of much in this word. We hope and have faith that our views are good and sure, but we can always be self deceived. But regardless, since you are so sure about hebrews six, please I would love to debate you on this issue. By all means if you have posted in this thread about it, please recopy the post here and we can debate your findings. I am convinced that Hebrews six is teaching apostacy. So we can share views.
     
  20. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    well sir, that is a very proud stance to take. We cannot be assured of much in this word. We hope and have faith that our views are good and sure, but we can always be self deceived. But regardless, since you are so sure about hebrews six, please I would love to debate you on this issue. By all means if you have posted in this thread about it, please recopy the post here and we can debate your findings. I am convinced that Hebrews six is teaching apostacy. So we can share views.[/QUOTE]
    I welcome good discussion ... I don't think my stand is proud, it is simply based on much study over many years.

    What in Hebrews 6 speaks of apostacy, (in relation to loss of salvation)?
     
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