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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I wanted to change the first few paragraphs of this thread for the confustion that resulted from what I said below: first let me say this about salvation, we are all eternally secure. Now let me talk about the rest of this:

    Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation. That is why some verses seem to talk about security and others seem to say that God tosses those who bear no fruit in the fire. Both are true! It's a balance. This is probably the hardest topic in christianity to understand, and most seminaries have it wrong. Most either error on the side of OSAS or error on the side that sin can cause you to lose salvation. Neither are true. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross, sin is no longer an issue for our salvation. But sin can deceive us, not God. God's end of the issue is done and settled, but our faith can be changed due to wanting to justify our sin. For example if I love having sex with a girl that is not my wife, I may want to justify that sin in my mind, then eventually I start to loathe all those who say it's wrong, including Jesus. Eventually that bitterness grows into doubt. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. And I have shipwrecked my faith. God always was willing to save me, but I decided not to endorse the check personally speaking. My name was not cancelled out of the Book of life, because I believe that happens at the end of our lives. One was still genuinely saved, but now they no longer believe Jesus was God's son or savior. God will not grant salvation any longer to such a person. As in the curse of balaam, God's people have cursed themselves. See Balaam could not curse God's people externally, but He tempted them in a separate way, to lead them into adultery with mideanite women. They tried to curse God's people three times from the outside, it was impossible. And only resulted in blessing them. However He was able to lead them into forfeiting the blessing themselves. I think that is a perfect example of apostacy. However in the case of salvation, no sin will cause salvation to be lost, accept one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is when I believe in Jesus or I don't either one, but I am not willing to trust Him with my salvation, and His gift of Grace. I once believed but due to the deception of sin, I have loved the world more than God, and eventually my seed of faith was dried up in the sun of tribulation, or my faith grew quickly in shallow soil, and I was not planted in a local church quickly enough and into fertile soil, my plant dies from malnutrition and my faith withers. Lots of things can cause a lack of faith. Now realize that doubting the Bible and God and Jesus is normal. I had various doubts the first ten years of Christianity, maybe even the first 15 years. Sometimes I doubted JEsus existence, or the supernatural aspect of the Bible. But because I was planted in a local church, those doubts went away naturally in time, as I prayed and studied. Some people don't have that church to help them, and they wither in their faith. Sometimes becoming twice the son of hell than before they were saved. I talk to athiests every day that once believed, and no longer do. Now they get full excitement in ship wrecking others faiths. They have become worse in the end, than they were in the beginning. So it's important to nurtture new saplings in the faith. Make sure they know they are loved by God and nothing they can do can separate them from His love. However we can shipwreck ourselves. But I don't mention this to new believers as it is the meat of scripture and something that they won't get, and may confuse them on grace and security. See we are eternally secure forever, nothing can separate us from God's love. We are elect before the foundation of the world. We are secure. But even in the most secure foundations, they are not locked from the inside. the white house is locked from the outside, no one can come in. But you can walk out if you choose.

    ------------

    I don't think you can lose your salvation I believe anyone who wants to be saved, will ultimately have the grace to be saved. But it is the person that thinks "I can sin all I want because I am saved by grace." There is a stern warning for that person. I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it. I believe in eternal security for me personally because I desire to love and live for God. He will never allow a sheep that God has given him to perish. But for the apostate, that same assurance is not there.

    I told this to an athiest earlier this week, I got no reply back. He knew it was a true case of why He doesn't believe in God. He forfeited his salvation. Let me post the same post so you can hear it:

    At first I thought you were open to the truth regarding this, but you are not. I personally think you rejected God because you fell into sin, and you wanted to justify it, so your sin decieved you and you lost your faith. I know that sounds horrible and confusing, but let me post it in length what happened exactly during your apostacy, and what needs to happen to reverse it.

    You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends. Our sin eventually causes us to lose our faith in the gospel message, to the point we don't even believe Jesus existed, or even to the point we don't believe the Bible is true any more. How can he save us from our sins, if we don't believe in Him? How can I go to a hell that I don't believe in? Well, very easily. All apostates will find that one out first hand, what needs to happen now is not a debate on apologetics, but a humble repentance. A calling out to God for help. There is no sacrifice left for the sin of the apostate, but all things are possible with God, if you hurry, God can reverse being an apostate. But you must be willing to give up that same sin that caused the apostacy. If it's an addiction, well there is grace for that. God can help you slowly recover, if you are proud of your sin and don't want to repent, well then you will never recover of apostacy.

    source verses: Hebrews 6 and 10. and matthew 13 below:

    It is not my desire to say that calvinists or arminianists are not saved, nor do I endorse such arrogant labeling by theologians, I think this is a controversial topic and needs to be handled with care.

    I wish to share part of my testimony to show how apostacy doctrines reveal more grace than OSAS.

    I believe christians should not live in sin, but in the case of addictive sin I believe grace covers and mercy is in place. For this believer who is under conviction of Holy spirit, is contrite and has shame, there is grace. They get couseling, read books on victory, and get accountability partners. To those who are proud of sin, a homosexual who attends gay pride rallies, and opened a blog homosexuals for christ. To those the bible has warnings of apostacy. See you have grace to the humble and the law to the proud. To different ends to two different people. Now Calvinistic has a problem see I was thinking today while driving that is someone has an addictive sin, a Calvinist will simply say they were never saved because they didnt adhere to the perseverance of holiness, which is a calvinist doctrine. So there is a problem of assurety here. Now someone may adopt a similar view that we have here, but that is not in calvinism classically speaking. So under calvinist one is saved because they have fruit of the spirit, and they persevere their entire life in holiness, and only at the end of their life if they persevered in holiness, can they say they were in fact elect. If they stumbled with homosexuality for a year like I did, then they were never saved. So at any point in their life if they go through a triAL and stumble, they were never saved. So there is no eternal security there. I was never pround of my homosexuality when I was in it, I was addicted to it, due to some anxiety in my life from losing a job and stress, but when my anxiety was treated and I got a good union job, as well as having counseling ND medication management, and lots of prayer, I was healed 100% of my homosexuality. I tried to repent, but every time I feared for my job the thoughts came back. It was a fear of insecurity over my male coworkers, and that fear turned into desire. Again, once my anxiety treaten and God provided a good stable job, those temptations went away 100%. What if I ran into a calvinist during that year I was gay? They would have said I did not persevere in holiness and was not saved, was never saved. That would have destroyed me. I loved Jesus so much. I was teaching evangelism for the previous three years. I think there was plenty of fruit in my life, but I had a small addictive sin. So until I could fully be free from that I was not fully filled with the spirit, but i was certainly saved. So again in conclusion it's simplistic to say catholic priests who molest children were never saved. Sometimes they need counseling, and prayer. But for sure I believe they should lose their place of authority over children, and be placed on a predator list. It's nit the children's fault that these grown men have issues. Protect the children. But I would not say they were never saved or not saved. Now if they are proud over sin, and have given up the fight long ago and are comfortable in sin, then there is law to the proud. And if they are humble and broken over it, there is grace to the humble. I hope this makes sense. This topic is very personal and powerful, the gospel was never meant to simply save us but to turn us into amazing witnesses to Gods power. Since my victory over homosexuality, God has given victory over pornography and self gratification, and even over eating. God has turned and blessed my life abundantly in the past six years and even more so in the last year, where I started praying and reading His word regularly.

    In conclusion, it's important with any theology that we realize it's not new. And the church fathers held to some of these views. I firmly believe that. Also some contemporary theologians also agree, so I will post their views: the text I want to focus on is passages in hebrews, this document is some commentaries on Hebrews 6:4 from Jon Courson through the Bible commentary and from Teckton apologetics online works:

    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  2. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
     
  3. morse86

    morse86 Junior Member

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    Eternal life is eternal life.
    Everlasting means everlasting.

    It's either everlasting OR God is lieing. Which one do you want? We know God cannot lie. How many times does the bible have to say that salvation is by grace..GRACE...through FAITH. It even gives an example of how Abraham was saved...not by works, but by faith.

    If you have to forfeit, that means it's works based!

    Man is made in the image of God: flesh, spirit and soul. Each of us have spirit. When we believe on Jesus, our spirit is reborn and the spirit cannot sin. The flesh is NOT reborn and continues to sin. That is why the bible says to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...it's a constant battle.

    When Jesus comes the second time, he will give us new bodies that are incorruptible.

    The sins you do in this life time are punished by God on earth but you will never go to hell.


     
  4. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I have some issues with the settled area of eternal.

    for example our souls are eternal because they are massless, and time requires mass to operate according to general relitivity. So our souls are eternal, but God created our soul during a past event. So what happened is that soul was placed in eternity or in a timeless domain from outside of that domain. It was not a period of time in the past, but an event in the past. It was at conception. That event caused our soul to be placed in a timless domain. Now we can choose to live eternally in hell or heaven. But we can change our mind. I just talked to someone that hates the idea of being in heaven, and would rather be in hell with his friends. Now if that was a former believer and that person decides not to be saved anymore. God must let them go. God allows us to choose to become saved, but then we are forced to remain saved? That does not make much logical sense. I don't think salvation can be lost like you lose your car keys, as I have mentioned in the OP. But I realize this topic is sensitive for some people. And it changes your outlook on the entire gospel message. Is salvation for me? Or is it for God? Did God simply create us to save us? Or did God create us to Glory Him. So if someone is not living the christian life, and loathes christian principles, and says "I am saved by grace" I can go to the bar every day, and drink my life away, while going down town to the strip club and hiring prostitutes (while being married). I call that person either a false convert (one who never repented at salvation), or an apostate, one who forfeited salvation. But I would not call that a saved man.

    (again it is important to read the whole OP, don't just read this posts and get the wrong idea on salvation) I do believe in eternal security.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  5. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I agree, I think there are two types of false christians. The false convert, the one who never repented at salvation, and thinks that faith without repentance can save Him. And the apostate, one who sins willfully after recieving the knowledge of the truth (hebrews 6). No I am not saying a free grace theologian is not saved, I believe they are saved because most likely there is lasting fruit. So I am not being dogmatic. I have heard free grace theologians tell me I was demon possessed and teaching heresy and was not saved. I lost a dear friend over that one. So yes this is not something to start labelling each other as heretics, but something to unite over.

    James straight out says we are saved by works, and if one has no works can faith save him?

    Now I don't think it means earning salvation, but I think it means that we must repent, and follow God when we become saved. The latter end should be better than the beginning. Not the opposite where the latter end is worse than the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  6. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Great reply.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.

    The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:

    “Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
    Mat 13:6

    “But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
    Mat 13:7

    “And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
    Mat 13:8

    “But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
    Mat 13:9

    “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

    Mat 13:18


    “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
    Mat 13:19

    “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
    Mat 13:20

    “But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
    Mat 13:21

    “yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Mat 13:22

    “Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
    Mat 13:23

    “But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  8. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with almost everything you say.
    You said "Now we can choose to live eternally in hell or heaven. But we can change our mind"....Where is that in the Bible?

    Where does the Bible say "God allows us to choose to become saved,"
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Now I need to clarify addictive sin.

    some people are addicted to sin, that does not mean they are unsaved, because they still desire salvation. Apostacy is where sin deceives you into losing faith in the Gospel message, and no longer desiring salvation, God grants your wish.

    I think if you are struggling with sin, that is a sign of life. For example if I throw a 50 pound weight on a corpse, it won't feel uncomfortable, because they are dead. But to the living person, they will push it off immediately because of the pressure on their bodies. If you are struggling with sin, that is a sign of life. If you are not struggling with sin, your ok with it, proud of it, and love it. Then that is a sign of death.

    Again in order to understand how sin deceives us read the OP post one, don't simply read this post and think this is all it says, it's in context with the greater picture.
     
  10. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    There's time I sin willfully. Don't you? In fact every sin is a willful decision.

    Secondly James does not "straight out says we are saved by works" James says our salvation will produce works.

    Paul in his letter to the Ephesians says...2:8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

    Paul squarely contradicts what you are forcing James to say....something you ought to consider.
     
  11. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    John 3:16 says whosever believes. Hundreds of verses talk about repentance unto salvation. God may grant faith, and repentance. But that does not mean God does those actions for you. You still must have faith, God can't come into your mind and make you believe, you must believe it. Same with repentance, God won't make you repent of homosexuality, or pedophilia and follow Christ. You must do it. And to not do it, means you are not fulfilling salvic repentance. Now I address addictive sins in a different post. So read all of them, there is alot of information.
     
  12. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I believe I answer this completely here:

    Can you lose your salvation
     
  13. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Once again, where does the Bible teach that?
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I just posted almost half the chapter of matthew 13, the parable of the sewer. I willpost again here.

    The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.

    The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:

    “Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
    Mat 13:6

    “But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
    Mat 13:7

    “And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
    Mat 13:8

    “But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
    Mat 13:9

    “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

    Mat 13:18


    “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
    Mat 13:19

    “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
    Mat 13:20

    “But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
    Mat 13:21

    “yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Mat 13:22

    “Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
    Mat 13:23

    “But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
     
  15. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    God has to do to you something similar towhead God did to Lydia..

    Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

    If God doesn't act on you, you won't get saved.

    John 6:65 puts it this way "And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    If God doesn't act on you, you won't get saved.

    Eph 2 tells us "1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins". DEAD.
    While we are dead "5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"....God regenerates us. We are born again. Believers.
    Believers receive the comforter and a change life should be apparent.
     
  16. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    There are many who hear the gospel...say cool!! Maybe even endure for a while then leave because they're never saved.

    I gave you that verse in post 2.
    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I agree that God grants faith and repentance. But granting it does not mean that He forces you to believe, and forces you to repent, by in essence doing it for you. It is our responsibility to respond to the invitation with an open heart and be willing to make Jesus our Lord and savior.
     
  18. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    but you did not answer matthew 13. See I agree with all you post. I agree in eternal security, I believe in apostacy, I believe in false conversion like you mention here. I don't disagree, but it's just talking about different things. I think it's your perspective that is limited. See you can't read matthew 13, literally. You have to allegorize it to mean something else. and I don't think that is correct hermeneutics. There hasn't been a post here that I disagree with. The Bible says all of it, including apostacy. And that is what I think you miss.
     
  19. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Where is this concept of force coming from? Once God regenerates you..quickens you...it is something you willfully do.
     
  20. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    They have no root. They were not in Christ. They were never saved.
     
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