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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Just so you know I went to bible college, studied from the top seminaries in the country, started a journal of soteriology, and had dozens of articles about salvation. I had the best soteriological journals of my perspective that i could find out of anyone in thatbtype of perspective. I was humble believe me, not! All of that to say, man's institutions and myself following the top systematic theology, was wrong. I was self decieved. If anyone should understand salvation soteriology, I should have. I taught evangelism 101, 102 in a mega church, and wrote an evagelism manual. Again all of this to say I was entirely wrong on salvation. So I apologize if I don't really respect your "years of study". It almost entirely revolves around who or what you studied during that time. And since I don't know many or any popular theologians who adhere to the biblical model of apostacy, I doubt you studied the right teachers. You may say you studied the Bible without aid. And that's good, but sometimes in the controversial passages like hebrews 6, most if not all people resort to commentaries. So I am sure you are no different. So yes, I meant pride, because you are sure you are correct and I am 99 percent sure you are not. Because I made the same mistakes as you did, when I was calvinist. So people can get puffed up over what they know, as a badge of honor, and i have been there too. The bible says "knowledge puffs up". But that should be an indicator that you are not trusting in God, and are learning the wrong stuff. True knowledge brings humility and power. Anyway read hebrews 6:4 and tell me what you think it says, and we can start there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  2. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I'm not making the challenge ... you are. I am very comfortable with my beliefs. You on the other hand wish to prove me wrong (about something); I believe in the simplicity of Scripture, and very clearly see OSAS. I have already asked you what about Hebrews 6 supports your view of apostasy in relation to loss of salvation.

    Yes, I have shelves full of commentaries, and the like; some I agree with, and others, not so much.

    The Scripture has much to say about salvation, and Hebrews 6 is but one reference. What happens when we put focus on a text such as this, many other texts and aspects begin to enter the discussion.

    I have no desire to lay the foundation of discussion by presenting a 101 lesson, and building thereon.

    Simply present your case, and as you do, I will answer accordingly.
     
  3. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Sir I believe the actual text itself I don't have a case.

    I think that is the difference between you and I.

    Just read hebrews 6 and tell me what you think of it.

    Because it does not support OSAS.

    It mentions in verse one that apostacy doctrine is not a docrtrine of works.

    that is the number one criticism one may have about it.

    it also mentions that it is a controversial subject and not for new believers to understand as it is not the "milk" of scripture.

    Lets go ahead and let the scriptures speak for themselves

    Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2

    of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.



    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    Heb 6:5

    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    (this verse speaks of tasting the good word of God, but a few chapters earlier it says "Jesus tasted of death for all mankind"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." So with the concept of expositional constancy we should interpret a word similiar to how it is interpreted by the same author in the same book. So tasted in Hebrews 6, means fully partook.

    if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.Heb 6:7


    Then He confirms that this is a judgement for believers (mark 14 confirms that believers are considered living plants).

    For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
    Heb 6:8

    but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

    (so living plants, believers who do not bear fruit but thorns, are rejected, this is the same message as the gospels)
     
  4. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    I honestly have no idea exactly what I think about apostasy and apostates. I was always under the impression that apostates were those who willingly and knowingly turned away from the Lord. And I realize that all sin is willingly turning from the Lord, but I was under the impression that apostates had chosen completely to turn away.
    I thought that the Lord would never turn his back on me. I thought I had the Spirit until my death, but I very clearly felt the Spirit leave and saw an un-revewal of my mind and heart. I can't help but think that I have absolutely lost my salvation. The Word just looks like words now. I can't discern spiritual things like I once did. My heart feels hard and uncaring and I have such great apathy towards the Lord. I don't see the Lord holding me anymore and I don't know what to do anymore. None of my theology feels real anymore and I don't know what to think or what I believe. It feels like my faith has evaporated and my heart hardened over. I don't know if there's any hope left for me. I feel like my only choice at this point is to tell the Lord I'm sorry and turn myself in for my just punishment.
     
  5. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    If I've lost my salvation, what do I do?
     
  6. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    Or if I've inadvertently apostatized. I don't want to live like this. Living apart from Christ is no life.
     
  7. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Active Member Supporter

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    What believer who has struggled with any REAL sin—not the nicey-nice fake sin so many pretend they barely struggle with—HASN'T felt like you do?

    I have. Felt like I was just DONE for. Kaput. But the God of STEADFAST LOVE revived me again and again and again and He'll revive YOU.

    "Living apart from Christ is no life."

    What unbeliever has ever said THAT? Now, unbelieving BELIEVERS have. That's one of the main thrusts of Hebrews, to give believers CONFIDENCE based on a multiplicity of FACTS about God's goodness. Get an audio Bible you like and listen to the WHOLE letter sometime. That will short-circuit all the gnat-straining and proof-texting and deprogram any unbelief REAL GOOD!

    Whenever GOD warns, tenderness and compassion are right behind it. Sad that those who push Chapter 6 as a WARNING do not quote the rest of it. That is mishandling God's Word! Withholding grace! WHY?!?

    Read it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Still, Hebrews is written to THE HEBREWS and NOT us Gentiles in "the dispensation of the grace of God" as taught by The Lord through Paul. That factors into things as it raise issues that clash with sheer "grace through faith". Under Paul we are taught that our salvation is a fait a compli (accomplished fact). So "falling away" can never mean loss of eternal life for US. Impossible, otherwise we are calling God a liar.

    Bless you!

    (I am leaving computer so won't be able to reply. God LOVES you, believer!)
     
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Can you give some examples, maybe one from OT and another from NT of some who turned from sin and didn't go back, in Scripture?
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    if you desire salvation, it is yours. If you are sad over your sin, you have the Holy spirit. The next step is getting free from the sin that caused apostacy. But if you are grieved over sin, that is a sign of life. If you don't have sadness over your sin, and are proud of your sin, that is a sign of apostacy.

    There is hope for you.

    I want you to watch a sermon, watch the whole thing, it may help. It's on this very verse, hebrews six.

    Seachlight with Jon Courson
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Have you been sad over your sin? Did you try to be free from it?
     
  11. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews

    The Apostle says ...
    1) "Therefore"
    When we see the word "therefore", we need to look back to see what it is there for ...

    5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews

    The Apostle just spoke of his readers having the need of teachers, when they should be teaching.

    What's the issue here?

    Many of the Hebrews suffered with the idea falsely presented by many of the rabbis that obedience to the law of Moses was a necessity for salvation.

    (This error is even taught by many today. We often hear that those in the Old Testament were "under the law", but we are under grace.)

    This of course has no truth whatsoever, (as taught by most people).

    We see this also in the writings of the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Galatians.

    3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

    2) "leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ"

    There must be a time when we realize that our salvation is secure in the work of the Godhead. That was the purpose of the "Therefore" starting the chapter.

    When we spend our entire lives concerned with our own salvation, we spend less time being concerned about the salvation of others. If we are working to keep our salvation secure, there lays in the back of our minds the wonder of whether or not that which we do meets the requirements needed to keep our salvation secure.

    3) "let us go on unto perfection"
    This perfection is nothing other than holiness. God desires that we be holy, as He is holy. Holiness however, is separate from salvation, (as can be seen by the use of the words, "let us go on unto"), and is that which the Apostle desires to "go on unto". Holiness therefore is not part of salvation, but rather that which comes AFTER salvation. (The principle of the doctrine of Christ.)

    4) "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God"

    The Apostle once again states the problem ... the return to, "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God".

    When building a home, or other structure; once the foundation has been built, the builders leave that work, and move onto that which rests upon the foundation; but they no longer return to building the foundation ... why? Because, that is a finished work!

    "of repentance from dead works"

    What is "repentance"?

    Repentance is having a change of mind, and heart. Prior to being "saved" we trust in our works of righteousness to either fully pay, partially pay, or at least in some way to sustain the eternal life we have been given. But this is a gross error.

    64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah

    3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus

    The first words we need to focus on are "he saved us". We do absolutely no works that are, or can be associated with our salvation. Why?

    Because, any such works would be corrupted by our own sin. That is why we are in need of a Saviour.

    Hence, no matter how much our works may appear righteous to mankind, they are dead works from God's perspective.

    Therefore, it is necessary for us to stop trusting in our dead works, and start placing our faith in God to totally save us. ("Repentance from dead works", = principle one, and "faith toward God" = principle two.)

    In the beginning of your comment above you stated ...

    A) Where in my above comments did I NOT present the "actual text"?

    B) Where exactly in verse one did you see 1) the word apostasy; or 2) any mention of apostasy?

    You clearly stated:
    Again, where in verse one is apostasy mentioned?
     
  12. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Yes sir, God has granted victory over four addictive sins in my life, 2 about ten years ago and 2 this last year.
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Some good points that i have already posted on my last post and some assumptions of the text that are not there. All of this was answered in my last post and that Google drive commentary I posted about four or five posts back, I will repost it. Please read this:

    John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You know, there is no mention of moral failings on the part of those with whom God was not pleased. It just says they did not switch loyalty from mammon to God.

    1 Corinthians 10
    1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Obedience brings reward::

    Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness, According to my cleanness in His eyes. “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd. You will save the humble people; But Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down. “For You are my lamp, O Lord ; The Lord shall enlighten my darkness. For by You I can run against a troop; By my God I can leap over a wall. As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him. “For who is God, except the Lord ? And who is a rock, except our God? God is my strength and power, And He makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of deer, And sets me on my high places.
    II Samuel 22:25‭-‬34 NKJV
    II Samuel 22:25-34 Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness, According to my cleanness in His eyes. “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yours | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The command is to come out of Egypt:

    Hosea 11
    1When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

    Hebrews 3
    1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
    AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

    9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
    AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

    10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
    AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
    AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

    11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I did read that, but YOU specifically stated ...
    Now can you address the question,
    Where in verse one is apostasy mentioned?
     
  18. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    I wouldn't say that I'm proud of my sin by any margin. I'm just not broken over it. It feels neutral when committed. My immediate response is to confess and turn away but my repentance feels hollow.
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Amen brother, good word.
     
  20. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    There is a saying:

    Sew a thought
    Reap an action
    Sew an action
    Reap a habit
    Sew a habit
    Reap a lifestyle

    This is positive things or negative things.

    It could be patience, or love. If you sew these things you will reap fruit.
     
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