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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you what, I did a somewhat detailed exegesis on the text in question. I challenge you to directly refute what I have stated.

    Please don't give me an article written by someone else. You presented this great resume of all the studies you have done, and even written, but now resort to an article written by another ...

    That isn't debating, that is shoving me off without a single direct answer to anything I have presented.

    Furthermore, you directly stated that apostacy was spoken of in verse one; and you now have nothing to defend that claim but the works of another man.

    Are you actually qualified to have the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME to, or can you only direct me to the words of another?

    Under your name (gradyII) it reads, "logical debater - for better: or for worse)

    I would say this qualifies for "worse".

    You tell me "Because of the sheer length of the errors in these posts, I do not have time to reply"; yet you ramble on in you answers that have NOTHING to do with the text in question.

    I'm sorry, but I have broken down you response, and absolutely refuted it using the Word of God.

    You have two choices, Step up to the plate and actually participate in the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME TO, with YOUR OWN WORDS; or simply step down and admit you are not as qualified in this as your RESUME proclaims you to be.

    Again THESE are YOUR OWN WORDS:

    Post #81
     
  2. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    You are the one that keeps pasting the same article.

    What I have presented is NOT COPIED AND PASTED from someone else, but copied out of articles that I myself have written.

    I too have college experience, but do not post my experience to scare off, or try to intimidate my opponents.

    I rarely write the words of others, because over the past 35 years of both study, and teaching; I have written a vast amount of articles.

    So Again, can you ...

    1) tell me where Hebrews 6:1 mentions apostacy (in either the English, or the Greek)?; or
    2) Specifically show me where what I have stated concerning verses 4 through 6 are NOT in alignment with the direct text; or
    3) Show me where the Greek text uses αποστασια in verse six (fall away) to support your view that apostacy is the subject of the text.

    It is time to either present straight forward answers, or step down ... you choose.
     
  3. Wordkeeper

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    Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

    Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

    If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?



    When believers are confused about the purpose of the Cross, these are the questions they end up asking.

    On the one hand, preachers teach that the work of Christ is sufficient to justify those who simply believe it is sufficient. On the other side, we have the verses that deal with judgment, the righteous with good works to a judgment of resurrection, and the lazy to a judgment of wrath.

    A good way to think about it is to consider that the sufficiency is with regard to cleansing the Temple, the Body of Christ, with the blood of Jesus, not the blood of bulls and goats, empowering believers so that they can be how God fulfill His promise to Abraham, not how God admits them into heaven. Else the promise to Abraham is left hanging in the air. God made the One without sin to be a sin offering, do that in Him we can be the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, of being a blessing to the world.

    The land is an important element in the process of salvation. When Israel is carried away into captivity in Babylon, they are impotent, unable to sing the Lord's song in a strange land. They must be IN the Promised Land, rest, a type of Christ. Equally important, whoever lives in the Land must serve God loyally. When the King of Assyria brought in settlers from Babylon to harness the Land, God sent lions that killed them, because they did not know how God was to be approached. No wonder the rest of Jerusalem feared to join Peter:

    Acts of the Apostles 5
    13No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

    How different from the easy believism taught in the church today.

    Let's lay out how a believer grows

    1. Hears the Gospel, the good news that it is possible to walk away from serving mammon for treasure that rusts to serving God for treasure that never perishes.

    2. This belief allows a person to be baptised, changes him or her from a dog to a child of God, permits the eating and understanding of bread, spiritual food, the idea that God can protect a person in the dangerous journey of becoming a blessing to the world.

    3. Everybody who confesses that mammon is a hard slave-driver, whose wages do not last, receives bread from heaven. But Judas, Ananias and Sapphira, and all in Israel above 20 years old apart from Joshua and Israel, were vomited out of the People of God, because of craving for worldly food. Only those who perfect their faith can rest in Christ.

    Conclusion
    Jesus’s work cleansed the invisible Church forever. Our contribution is to be faithful to God, not mammon. We can not just walk away from salvation (against Dr Jack's view), we can also be vomited out of the real Promised Land, the Body of Christ (against gradyll's view).
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  4. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    How do you reconcile this with Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30?
     
  5. Wordkeeper

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    A seal does not mean the redemption is guaranteed. Simon Magus was baptised, he confessed that serving mammon for treasure that perishes was futile, yet he could not resist reaching out for power that would be good for his former lifestyle. Peter told him he was in danger of being vomited out.
     
  6. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Really? I don't read that in the text at all. Did Peter warn him of his wrong thoughts, and his need to repent? Yes. Did Simon repent? Yes. Si where is this teaching from.

    And was then the Holy Spirit wrong for inspiring Paul to put a time element on the length of the seal?

    Always remember, you cannot destroy one set of Biblical facts, by presenting others that seem to contradict the former ... very bad hermeneutics!
     
  7. Wordkeeper

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    I wanted to highlight that even those baptised into drinking from spiritual food can fall into danger of being vomited out. So that was a valid example.

    Acts of the Apostles 8
    20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, I'm not seeing ANYTHING about being "vomited out" here.
     
  9. Wordkeeper

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    Pete said Simon Magus was in danger of perishing. Ananias and Sapphira died.

    Leviticus 18
    28And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

    2 Kings 17
    24The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Kuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim and settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites. They took over Samaria and lived in its towns. 25When they first lived there, they did not worship the Lord; so he sent lions among them and they killed some of the people.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  10. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    First of all, the promised land wasn't a type of salvation ... it was a type of "entering into His rest".

    Secondly, there is no witness that A) Ananias and Sapphira were saved; or B) the physical death of Ananias and Sapphira meant that they also died spiritually.

    To build a Biblical doctrine, the text must actually say precisely what you present as truth. Unless the Bible says (for example) that the promised land is a type of heaven ... we cannot just assume it does.

    Yes, I know, there are many old 'gospel' songs like "Shall we gather at the river"; but unless the Bible teaches such, it is not so.

    Are you also saying then that because Moses didn't get to enter the promise land, but went to the mountain and died, that Moses also didn't go to heaven?

    (Yes I know he went to Abraham's bosom, then to heaven after the resurrection.)

    Please ... stop reaching for straws.
     
  11. Wordkeeper

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    The real Promised Land is Christ, of which Canaan is only a type. Israel couldn't be a people of God in Babylon, they couldn't sing His song in a strange land. That's why it's important to be IN Christ.

    The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses

    Frame-Poythress

    Quote
    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

    The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses
     
  12. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    And exactly what does that have to do with salvation?
     
  13. Wordkeeper

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    Acts of the Apostles 5
    13No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

    How different from the easy believism taught in the church today.
     
  14. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Christ is not the promised land. The promised land is entering into His rest AFTER salvation.

    If you don't follow Christ you do not stay in His rest, (after entering), but guess what ... the Israelites were still, (and still are) His chosen nation .. sorry.
     
  15. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think I support "easy beliefism"?

    Have you not read what I have written concerning what we should know prior to salvation?
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Okay, It's been a noisy night tonight. (I like peace and quiet when I sleep.)

    I'm going to try to go back to sleep ... Do me a favor ... don't tell me what you think I believe. It's rather annoying.
     
  17. Wordkeeper

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    Why do you think it was dangerous to join the church?
    Jesus said "Destroy this Temple and I will raise it in three days". Because the Jews had defiled it, turning it from a sanctuary of God into a den of thieves, it needed to be returned back to its original condition. In one single day, the land was cleansed, according to Zechariah 3:9
     
  18. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    It was dangerous because of the persecution.


    1) When Jesus said, "Destroy this Temple and I will raise it in three days"; he wasn't talking about Herod's temple, He was talking about His OWN body.

    2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body. John

    2) Zechariah is speaking of a yet future event ... unless you think that the land of Isreal, or more specifically the temple mount, (which currently hosts the Islamic Dome of the Rock ... a religious sect that despises both Israel and Christians), is a "clean" location.

    Pretty much NOTHING you present is correct Biblically. Stop grasping for straws.
     
  19. Wordkeeper

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    This statement is so wrong. The context shows the danger was because the Body of Christ required sinlessness from believers on the issue of loyalty to God, with serious consequences for non compliance:

    Acts of the Apostles 5
    1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back someof the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

    7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.” 9Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

    12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico. 13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.


    You would do well to think, and study, before posting.

    But a temple is only a temple when it contains people, and He didn’t have people in His body. So He must have meant His group, Church, the Body of Christ.

    The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses
    John Frame

    Quote
    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


    That article is written by John Frame, a respected Reformed scholar. He is using a hermeneutic employed by Jewish scholars, PARDES. When Paul links the Old Covenent to Ishmael, he is also employing PARDES. Again, please study. Especially don't forget, PARDES.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  20. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Part of the above quote from you ...

    Paul told Timothy ...
    1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

    Notice the present tense of Pau saying "to save sinners; of whom I am chief"

    In the Greek the above phrase reads ...
    "ἁμαρτωλοὺς σῶσαι, ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ·"

    This leaves no doubt as the "ειμι" is used. So since by inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul declared he was the "chief of sinners" ... how exactly does this fit into you view of "sinnlessness"?


    Witness One:
    The Holy Spirit had John write ...
    2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. John

    So the disciples of Jesus remembered after Jesus physically resurrected that Jesus said this would happen.

    Witness Two:
    6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Corinthians
    So the Holy Spirit inspired both John and Paul to say that the physical body is a temple; but you don't except what the Holy Spirit says.


    I'm not saying that the slaying of innocent blood doesn't bring a curse on the land; I'm saying that your, and Pardes are in error.

    Reformed scholars have others things wrong as well... Like predestination. And Jewish scholars have been wrong about Jesus for a very long time.

    Stop trying to allegorize the Scriptures, and take them at face value.
     
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