Can you lose your salvation

[Dr. Jack]

again let me post the contradiction that arises when you don't believe lack of faith is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

I understand your point ... but let's not try to redefine what a word of Scripture means, especially when it always has the same meaning.

The word "blaspheme" is rendered from the Greek blasphēmeō. The word blasphēmeō is ALWAYS associated with speaking evil against a particular person.

Hence, while loosing faith is not 'good', it in no way equates to blasphemy. Blasphemy is a particular verb, with a particular meaning ... always being associated to, shall we say, "speaking evil", that is directed at a particular person.

What Jesus stated was, speaking against Him (referring to himself) is forgivable ... speaking against the Holy Spirit, is not.

 

[Dr. Jack]

look at it this way.

if you don't equate the two, you have a contradiction within the Bible. a real contradiction, that you can email to athiests, and sell to the highest bidder causing people to lose faith in scripture. Do you want that on your head. I realize your faith is stronger than a contradiction. But can we honestly say that we don't have blind faith, when our scriptures contradict? Are we any better than the mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses, when we prove their books contradict logically, if ours does too?

The trinity was developed as the first systematic theology. I think one can error too far in the realm of theology, agreed. But it was originally developed to incorporate the trinity. A word which cannot be found in the Bible. There is not one verse that proves the trinity. 1 John 5:9 I use because I believe the TR is a valid manuscript and superiour. But FF bruce and most modern translations omit that verse as a spurious late addition. So without that verse there is no single verse that prove the three in one of the trinity.

you have verses that prove Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God , but those are dualities not a trinity.

so again. Just because I cannot quote a verse that says blasphemy of the Holy spirit is not believing the Gospel, it is very obvious what it is.

and besides I actually believe it to mean two things, cursing out the Holy Spirit, and believing Christ did miracles by the power of the Devil, which is sort of like, not having faith.

But anyway, I am going to put together a list of commentaries that I respect, and some of them will be for my view and others will be for your view.

I do this to save time, I feel most of the observations of the text will be brought forth in the commentaries and we can discuss them at that point.

thanks

Just for the record ... I believe there are no contradictions in Scripture ... only texts that some view that way.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just for the record ... I believe there are no contradictions in Scripture ... only texts that some view that way.

but there is a contradiction that you have not adressed:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism.

 

[createdtoworship]

I understand your point ... but let's not try to redefine what a word of Scripture means, especially when it always has the same meaning.

The word "blaspheme" is rendered from the Greek blasphēmeō. The word blasphēmeō is ALWAYS associated with speaking evil against a particular person.

Hence, while loosing faith is not 'good', it in no way equates to blasphemy. Blasphemy is a particular verb, with a particular meaning ... always being associated to, shall we say, "speaking evil", that is directed at a particular person.

What Jesus stated was, speaking against Him (referring to himself) is forgivable ... speaking against the Holy Spirit, is not.

I think the other guy is too far gone, but you seem to have a respect to what many modern pastors and theologians believe regarding this. I have included two church fathers, showing that my interpretations are not new, but have been believed for thousands of years of church history. Secondly, eighty to ninety percent of the following commentators believe the blasphemy of the spirit could also refer to rejecting the work of the spirit in Christ's life through the gospel.

I made a document like I said I would, it took about an hour. So I hope you will at least read some of it. The top two are from my most respected commentator, I really like radmacher, he was a Bible translator and seminary professor at dallas for many years I believe:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism.

Blasphemy of the Holy spirit

download it and keep a copy.

your welcome, that sheet is almost twenty pages long of commentaries all talking about the passage.

 

[Dr. Jack]

but there is a contradiction that you have not adressed:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism.

Does not God forgive our "unbelief", or "lack of faith" when we turn to Him?

God is willing to forgive unbelief IF we come to Him on His terms.

God is not willing to forgive the person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit ... there is no contradiction.

 

[createdtoworship]

Does not God forgive our "unbelief", or "lack of faith" when we turn to Him?

God is willing to forgive unbelief IF we come to Him on His terms.

God is not willing to forgive the person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit ... there is no contradiction.

apparently their is a line that once crossed, even God will proclaim all is lost.

I don't know where that line is, and neither do you.

but at some point in our disbelief, if it is rooted in a sin, we will start to defend our sin over the truth of God's word. Another example is not getting rooted in a church and satan implanting doubts about the Bible and Jesus, doubts that stay with them. Another example is someone who gets saved and grows quickly but then the cares of the world choke Him out. He starts caring more about material, mammon, and things than God, which is idolatry. He also loses His salvation. But the point being that at any point if they repent they can be saved, but I think there is a line in unbelief at which there is no turning back. Not from God's end of things, but from our end, we no longer desire repentance for something we don't believe in, and so the apostasy stays.

 

[Dr. Jack]

apparently their is a line that once crossed, even God will proclaim all is lost.

I don't know where that line is, and neither do you.

but at some point in our disbelief, if it is rooted in a sin, we will start to defend our sin over the truth of God's word. Another example is not getting rooted in a church and satan implanting doubts about the Bible and Jesus, doubts that stay with them. Another example is someone who gets saved and grows quickly but then the cares of the world choke Him out. He starts caring more about material, mammon, and things than God, which is idolatry. He also loses His salvation. But the point being that at any point if they repent they can be saved, but I think there is a line in unbelief at which there is no turning back. Not from God's end of things, but from our end, we no longer desire repentance for something we don't believe in, and so the apostasy stays.

The Scriptures do not present what you present.

As long as a person is alive physically, he can be forgiven of unbelief. However, it is not so with blasphemy.

Tell me what you think of this.

 

[createdtoworship]

The Scriptures do not present what you present.

As long as a person is alive physically, he can be forgiven of unbelief. However, it is not so with blasphemy.

Tell me what you think of this.

well for someone who does not believe in apostacy, you would logically reject the proposition that someone may not repent, however Hebrews 6:4-6 mentions in apostacy a point in which there will be no more repentance. Note that it's not God's end that failed, it's the repentance which is mans responsibility.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

Now what this does not mean is that at any point if someone does have sorrow, that they cannot come back. For God will not break the bruised reed or quench the smoking flax the Bible says. Which means if there is a little fire inside, God will stoke that fire into a burning flame. And if you are broken over your sin, God won't snap you off, but will nurture you into a proper place of fellowship once again, but you must have the sorrow. IF on the other hand you are proud of your sin, and going to Gay Pride parades, living with your homosexual partner in sin, willing to be married. Not at all remorseful over the life of sin. Then scripture is very plain, that by their fruits they will be known. (two versus later, hebrews 6:8 tells that exact illustration) And at some point, like I said, at some point in their apostacy, there is no turning back. God never failed in His promise, but that person has forfeited the eternal security that God offers and had left the harbor of salvation.

 

[Dr. Jack]

well for someone who does not believe in apostacy, you would logically reject the proposition that someone may not repent, however Hebrews 6:4-6 mentions in apostacy a point in which there will be no more repentance. Note that it's not God's end that failed, it's the repentance which is mans responsibility.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

Now what this does not mean is that at any point if someone does have sorrow, that they cannot come back. For God will not break the bruised reed or quench the smoking flax the Bible says. Which means if there is a little fire inside, God will stoke that fire into a burning flame. And if you are broken over your sin, God won't snap you off, but will nurture you into a proper place of fellowship once again, but you must have the sorrow. IF on the other hand you are proud of your sin, and going to Gay Pride parades, living with your homosexual partner in sin, willing to be married. Not at all remorseful over the life of sin. Then scripture is very plain, that by their fruits they will be known. (two versus later, hebrews 6:8 tells that exact illustration) And at some point, like I said, at some point in their apostacy, there is no turning back. God never failed in His promise, but that person has forfeited the eternal security that God offers and had left the harbor of salvation.

I wrote the following three articles on this text, and one on a supporting text:

I have been discussing eternal security of the believer with someone online.
The following articles are the result of that conversation. I hope they are a blessing.
(Please forgive the format, it doesn't transfer when copied, and pasted.)

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews

The Apostle says ... 1) "Therefore" When we see the word "therefore", we need to look back to see what it is there for ... 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews The Apostle just spoke of his readers having the need of teachers, when they should be teaching. What's the issue here? Many of the Hebrews suffered with the idea falsely presented by many of the rabbis that obedience to the law of Moses was a necessity for salvation. (This error is even taught by many today. We often hear that those in the Old Testament were "under the law", but we are under grace.) This of course has no truth whatsoever, (as taught by most people). We see this also in the writings of the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Galatians. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

2) "leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ" There must be a time when we realize that our salvation is secure in the work of the Godhead. That was the purpose of the "Therefore" starting the chapter. When we spend our entire lives concerned with our own salvation, we spend less time being concerned about the salvation of others. If we are working to keep our salvation secure, there lays in the back of our minds the wonder of whether or not that which we do meets the requirements needed to keep our salvation secure.

3) "let us go on unto perfection" This perfection is nothing other than holiness. God desires that we be holy, as He is holy. Holiness however, is separate from salvation, (as can be seen by the use of the words, "let us go on unto"), and is that which the Apostle desires to "go on unto". Holiness therefore is not part of salvation, but rather that which comes AFTER salvation. (The principle of the doctrine of Christ.)

4) "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" The Apostle once again states the problem ... the return to, "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God". When building a home, or other structure; once the foundation has been built, the builders leave that work, and move onto that which rests upon the foundation; but they no longer return to building the foundation ... why? Because, that is a finished work! "of repentance from dead works"

What is "repentance"? Repentance is having a change of mind, and heart. Prior to being "saved" we trust in our works of righteousness to either fully pay, partially pay, or at least in some way to sustain the eternal life we have been given. But this is a gross error. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus The first words we need to focus on are "he saved us". We do absolutely no works that are, or can be associated with our salvation. Why? Because, any such works would be corrupted by our own sin. That is why we are in need of a Saviour. Hence, no matter how much our works may appear righteous to mankind, they are dead works from God's perspective. Therefore, it is necessary for us to stop trusting in our dead works, and start placing our faith in God to totally save us. ("Repentance from dead works", = principle one, and "faith toward God" = principle two.)

Article Two: 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Hebrews The purpose of this study is not "basic principles" or "basic doctrines".

The purpose of this study is to examine
1) Who this text was written to; and what is the message, specifically involving verses 4 through 6. I will also touch on verses 7 through 10, as they shed additional light upon the text in question. In my previous comment (verse 1) I broke down verse one, showing that the Apostle had previously told his audience that when they should be teachers, they are yet needing to be taught. As he enters Chapter 6 he has the desire to move on from the basic principles (two of which are named in verse one ... which I briefly expounded upon; and four more listed in verse two, which I feel no need to expound upon). Then in verse three we read, "And this will we do, if God permit." To very briefly summarize, the Apostle is saying, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; And this will we do, if God permit." In other words, you should already know your salvation is secure in Christ, so let's move on to the doctrine of holiness, and this we will do, if God permit. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews Once again I will break this down as needed.
1) "For it is impossible" Now I know that God told us in Matthew 19:26 that with God, all things are possible ... but when God tells us there is something that is impossible, we had better take notice. As we proceed with the text, we will notice the reason of the impossibility. The Holy Spirit wants us to understand that what is about to be spoken of, is absolute. "For it is impossible".
2) "for those who were once enlightened" These are amazing words! Herein lay words that provide the foundation of the words to follow. When we are lost, God reveals who He is, (Roman's 1:18-21); but when we hear the gospel, we must face the reality of who we are, and what we justly deserve. We are made see that we are the children of wrath, (Ephesians 2:3). We are also made to see that "hell" is a place of torment that is far beyond anything we could ever imagine. We see in Luke 16 some things about "hell", that tell us, this is not the place to spend eternity.
A) 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke There is no relief of the torments of the flames. (vs. 24)
B ) The torments are so bad that the former rich man wanted his five brethren to be warned not to come. (vs. 27 and 28) We learn from Jesus that hell is a place which the worms are ever tormenting us. 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark These exact words are repeated in verses 46 and 48. And so we return to our text ... "for those who were once enlightened" We also learn of God's grace "Christ Jesus". We learn that God loved us so much, that while we we yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans In many versions the word "commendeth" is replaced with words such as "showed", "demonstrated", or "proved"; but these words fail to present the meaning of what Christ actually did. The English "commend" carries the meaning of standing beside a person, while speaking on their behalf. In this case (context), it is Jesus who willingly stands before the Father, and introduces us to Him (the Father), using His (Jesus) position as Son, to make us acceptable to the Father! "for those who were once enlightened" Now let us narrow our examination ... Let us focus on the word, "once". If the "enlighten[ment]" of the Holy Spirit was genuine, (and we have no reason to believe it wasn't), it is an enlightenment that only needs to be given once, although it may be revisited, and enhanced many times over. The true enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is what we see when reading the words of the Apostle Paul ... 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians "for those who were once enlightened" Once the Holy Spirit has given you enlightenment, a change will occur.
3) "and have tasted of the heavenly gift" Now many Christian's will look at the word "gift", and assume this is "salvation" ... after all, the Scripture does teach that salvation is a gift. I however do not think this is the focus of the Apostle. What then is this "gift"? Is it not the Person Jesus Christ? Is not Jesus Christ the One who embodies Eternal Life, and the love which delivers us from that which we justly deserve? "and have tasted of the heavenly gift Do we do much do much more than taste the goodness of Jesus Christ while in this mortal body?
4) "and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" Now we see a direct connection to the Holy Spirit. When we are made "partakers of the Holy Spirit", (it is witnessed by the other principles listed herein), and we then can clearly see the present text is being presented to believers ... (for the reason which I shall soon present).
The Holy Spirit has begun His ministry in the heart of the believer; such ministries include: (As well as many others) A) Regeneration (Titus 3:5); B ) Being sealed in Christ (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) C) Filling for power to perform our ministry (Acts 13:9 and 52)
5) "And have tasted the good word of God" In my comment above, I stated that some of these principles are evidence that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit. When we are truly born again, we should have a desire to taste, and yes, even eat the "good word of God" daily. If we do not have this desire, it may be an indication that we have not been truly saved. Our "salvation experience" must be in accordance with the Scriptures. So many are led to pray a "sinners prayer" not having any knowledge of repentance, or knowledge of a tual guilt before God. For some, it is nothing more than turning over a 'new leaf' or something of that sort. Sadly, there have been many that were members of a particular church that never preached a true gospel message, that would find themselves in an evangelistic service, walk forward, only to be told that their past church membership just needs to be reestablished, and they'll be just fine. How can we taste the good word of God unless we have a longing to have it? Our churches so often tell us how much God wants us happy, (or rich), and fail to deliver the good words of God. But here, in this text, the Apostle declares that we have indeed tasted of the good words of God, showing us that his intended audience is the true believer.
6) "and the powers of the world to come" This is truly one of the greatest witnesses that this text is to believers. Not only have these believers enjoyed all the before mentioned principles, but they have also tasted "the powers of the world to come"! The powers of the realm that lay beyond our mortal bodies! One of the great themes of Hebrews is, "Entering into His rest". Entering into a life that goes beyond reliance of the abilities of our flesh, and trusting fully in the gracious power of the Holy Spirit. When we realize that our salvation is secure in Christ, and that God has called us into the service of being Ambassadors for Christ, (part of that Holy Spirit enlightenment), we realize what an honor it is to be identified with our Creator, and Saviour God! God freely allows his power to flow through us to acheive His work, thereby glorifying the Father. This is the believer that the Apostle is writing to in this wonderful text!

 

[Dr. Jack]

Article Three: 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews So far, this text has revealed two major things: 1) The audience of the Apostle are true believers in Christ; and 2) What is about to be discussed "is impossible". The language is posed in an absolute way, so that it cannot be refuted. What are the next words of the Apostle?
1) "If they shall fall away" The Apostle has made an airtight case that his audience is a group of truly born again believers. There are not many times which I take people to the Greek, but on rare occasions (such as this), I refer to the Greek to show the proper meaning of a word. A) "if" is rendered from the Greek και which is nearly always rendered "and". The KJ translators chose to render it "if", because they felt it rendered the entire context more easily. I think either "if" or "and" can fit nicely, in light of the Textual content. B) The key words we need to consider however are "fall away". The number one rule in hermeneutics is context, but we still must consider the Greek word used in this text. When most people see the words "fall away", they automatically assume this must be referring to 'apostasy' because in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the Greek ἀποστασία is rendered "falling away". However, here in Hebrews 6:6, the words fall away are NOT rendered from the Greek ἀποστασία, but rather the Greek παραπεσοντας. (From παρα meaning away, and πιπτω meaning to fall) The key here, is that the Greek does not support apostasy (a falling away that ends in loss of salvation) but rather, a falling away that only severe chastisement from God Himself can bring about.
2) "to renew them again unto repentance" When a person first accepts Christ, that person does so by acknowledging the things covered in Part one of this study, to obtain salvation. When however that same person doesn't continue to grow AFTER having experienced the Grace of God, and that person chooses rather to fall away from that grace, the simplicity of the preaching of the word will no longer renew that godly sorrow that originally brought repentance. Why?
3) "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" By falling away in such measure, they behave in the same manner as those who did infact crucify Jesus. The One who graciously paid their redemption, is now being treated as their enemy.
4) "and put him to an open shame" Imagine how our loving God is shamed as a disobedient child refuses to acknowledge the mercy, and grace of his Father. I have seen many times over the years when parents are shamed by the actions of their children. Children who were taught to be responsible, and make proper decisions in life. I have seen as they hang their heads in shame. I have also seen those children have to walk a very hard road that costed them great pain because of decisions they made. Finally, after hitting the very bottom, loosing all they had to loose, they were finally able to see the errors of their ways. A return to the service of Christ after such a falling away will not be through a simple presentation of the grace of God, but rather, through the Divine chastisement of God, as shown in Chapter 12. Hence, what this text presents is the great warning from God not to slide away from our faith by any means whatsoever. To do so is to put yourself in an extremely dangerous position. Why should we suffer the severe chastisement of God, because we fall away as His chilfren, when the simple path is to willingly be obedient as His child. We never become unborn spiritually any more than we can become unborn physically, but the chastising hand of our heavenly Father will reach out until it accomplishes its purpose. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrews I will not labor on these verses other than to say that the Apostle here expresses the contrast between the believer, and the unbelievers. (The believer being the former, and the unbelievers the latter.) 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews This then becomes the assurance that we will always be the children of God once we've been born again; but it is wiser to be an obedient child, rather than a not so obedient child.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Article Four: I will simply present the most direct two texts, from the Apostle Paul. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians
I would like to use another familiar text, along with an illustration to show that "walking away" isn't an option. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John
I'm not going to give the "eternal life" and "never perish" arguments, (howbeit they are solid arguments). Rather, I will focus on how the entire Godhead is involved in keeping us secure in our salvation.
1) We first have the fact that we are Redemptively placed IN Christ.
2) We then have the fact that we are placed IN the Father's hand.
3) We finally have the fact that the Holy Spirit "seals" us, "ye are sealed unto the day of redemption". (This isn't the Redemption of the soul, but rather, the final time when we are united, "body, soul, and spirit" in His presence forever.
Now the illustration to make the application ... When my mother used to do canning "way back" ... she would get out her Mason jars, a lid for each jar, and a rubber "seal" to complete each set. After preparing the food that was to be preserved, she would meticulously wipe the rim of each jar, check each lid, then the seal to insure preservation. She would then fill the jar all the way to the top, then quickly place the rubber seal and the lid carefully on the jar, then tighten it as tight as she could. The contents of the jar was hot when it was put into the jar. As the food would cool, it began to contract, causing a vacuum. That vacuum would cause the lid to 'pop' downward, which made that "popping" sound that Mom loved to hear. That "pop" meant that lid had been drawn down in a sufficient amount to cause the lid to become tight enough to "seal" the contents in the jar. The only way to get the food out of that jar was to physically break the seal. It is impossible for the food inside the jar to break that seal! In other words, it just can't simply, walk out. Why? Because it is sealed in the jar.
Here is the application ... When we turn to Christ for salvation, we know we NEED His deliverance from the wrath we so deserve. We should be taught of the reality of hell, and its torments. It is something that no sane person who has been presented with that truth would want to enter willingly, or otherwise. We willingly come to Christ desiring to be delivered, and trust fully in His ability to do just that. In other words, we aren't forced into being delivered from the hell we know we justly deserve. As a matter of fact, when I had salvation explained to me, I was so glad to hear that even though I would sin again, like my earthly father, my Heavenly Father wasn't going to kick me out as I learned to live for Him. Rather, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit would together keep me secure, all the days of my life. I was in the Father's hand (the jar); I was in the Son (the lid); and I was sealed with the Holy Spirit (the seal). I VOLUNTARILY placed myself in their care, trusting them to keep me secure, all the days of my life.
What about "walking away"? First, I would have to ask, Did you understand that you were (and are) being saved from that which you justly deserve? And that torment isn't very pretty? Second, did you not understand that you would be sealed, for your own protection? Third, Is there any sane person who knowing the torments of hell would willingly choose to step out of God's gracious hand? Finally, SINCE (not if) the Scripture teaches we are "sealed", how do you suppose you can break that seal? Are you mightier than the Holy Spirit?

 

[createdtoworship]

I wrote the following three articles on this text, and one on a supporting text:

I have been discussing eternal security of the believer with someone online.
The following articles are the result of that conversation. I hope they are a blessing.
(Please forgive the format, it doesn't transfer when copied, and pasted.)

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews

The Apostle says ... 1) "Therefore" When we see the word "therefore", we need to look back to see what it is there for ... 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews The Apostle just spoke of his readers having the need of teachers, when they should be teaching. What's the issue here? Many of the Hebrews suffered with the idea falsely presented by many of the rabbis that obedience to the law of Moses was a necessity for salvation. (This error is even taught by many today. We often hear that those in the Old Testament were "under the law", but we are under grace.) This of course has no truth whatsoever, (as taught by most people). We see this also in the writings of the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Galatians. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

2) "leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ" There must be a time when we realize that our salvation is secure in the work of the Godhead. That was the purpose of the "Therefore" starting the chapter. When we spend our entire lives concerned with our own salvation, we spend less time being concerned about the salvation of others. If we are working to keep our salvation secure, there lays in the back of our minds the wonder of whether or not that which we do meets the requirements needed to keep our salvation secure.

3) "let us go on unto perfection" This perfection is nothing other than holiness. God desires that we be holy, as He is holy. Holiness however, is separate from salvation, (as can be seen by the use of the words, "let us go on unto"), and is that which the Apostle desires to "go on unto". Holiness therefore is not part of salvation, but rather that which comes AFTER salvation. (The principle of the doctrine of Christ.)

4) "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" The Apostle once again states the problem ... the return to, "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God". When building a home, or other structure; once the foundation has been built, the builders leave that work, and move onto that which rests upon the foundation; but they no longer return to building the foundation ... why? Because, that is a finished work! "of repentance from dead works"

What is "repentance"? Repentance is having a change of mind, and heart. Prior to being "saved" we trust in our works of righteousness to either fully pay, partially pay, or at least in some way to sustain the eternal life we have been given. But this is a gross error. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus The first words we need to focus on are "he saved us". We do absolutely no works that are, or can be associated with our salvation. Why? Because, any such works would be corrupted by our own sin. That is why we are in need of a Saviour. Hence, no matter how much our works may appear righteous to mankind, they are dead works from God's perspective. Therefore, it is necessary for us to stop trusting in our dead works, and start placing our faith in God to totally save us. ("Repentance from dead works", = principle one, and "faith toward God" = principle two.)

Article Two: 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Hebrews The purpose of this study is not "basic principles" or "basic doctrines".

The purpose of this study is to examine
1) Who this text was written to; and what is the message, specifically involving verses 4 through 6. I will also touch on verses 7 through 10, as they shed additional light upon the text in question. In my previous comment (verse 1) I broke down verse one, showing that the Apostle had previously told his audience that when they should be teachers, they are yet needing to be taught. As he enters Chapter 6 he has the desire to move on from the basic principles (two of which are named in verse one ... which I briefly expounded upon; and four more listed in verse two, which I feel no need to expound upon). Then in verse three we read, "And this will we do, if God permit." To very briefly summarize, the Apostle is saying, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; And this will we do, if God permit." In other words, you should already know your salvation is secure in Christ, so let's move on to the doctrine of holiness, and this we will do, if God permit. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews Once again I will break this down as needed.
1) "For it is impossible" Now I know that God told us in Matthew 19:26 that with God, all things are possible ... but when God tells us there is something that is impossible, we had better take notice. As we proceed with the text, we will notice the reason of the impossibility. The Holy Spirit wants us to understand that what is about to be spoken of, is absolute. "For it is impossible".
2) "for those who were once enlightened" These are amazing words! Herein lay words that provide the foundation of the words to follow. When we are lost, God reveals who He is, (Roman's 1:18-21); but when we hear the gospel, we must face the reality of who we are, and what we justly deserve. We are made see that we are the children of wrath, (Ephesians 2:3). We are also made to see that "hell" is a place of torment that is far beyond anything we could ever imagine. We see in Luke 16 some things about "hell", that tell us, this is not the place to spend eternity.
A) 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke There is no relief of the torments of the flames. (vs. 24)
B ) The torments are so bad that the former rich man wanted his five brethren to be warned not to come. (vs. 27 and 28) We learn from Jesus that hell is a place which the worms are ever tormenting us. 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark These exact words are repeated in verses 46 and 48. And so we return to our text ... "for those who were once enlightened" We also learn of God's grace "Christ Jesus". We learn that God loved us so much, that while we we yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans In many versions the word "commendeth" is replaced with words such as "showed", "demonstrated", or "proved"; but these words fail to present the meaning of what Christ actually did. The English "commend" carries the meaning of standing beside a person, while speaking on their behalf. In this case (context), it is Jesus who willingly stands before the Father, and introduces us to Him (the Father), using His (Jesus) position as Son, to make us acceptable to the Father! "for those who were once enlightened" Now let us narrow our examination ... Let us focus on the word, "once". If the "enlighten[ment]" of the Holy Spirit was genuine, (and we have no reason to believe it wasn't), it is an enlightenment that only needs to be given once, although it may be revisited, and enhanced many times over. The true enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is what we see when reading the words of the Apostle Paul ... 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians "for those who were once enlightened" Once the Holy Spirit has given you enlightenment, a change will occur.
3) "and have tasted of the heavenly gift" Now many Christian's will look at the word "gift", and assume this is "salvation" ... after all, the Scripture does teach that salvation is a gift. I however do not think this is the focus of the Apostle. What then is this "gift"? Is it not the Person Jesus Christ? Is not Jesus Christ the One who embodies Eternal Life, and the love which delivers us from that which we justly deserve? "and have tasted of the heavenly gift Do we do much do much more than taste the goodness of Jesus Christ while in this mortal body?
4) "and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" Now we see a direct connection to the Holy Spirit. When we are made "partakers of the Holy Spirit", (it is witnessed by the other principles listed herein), and we then can clearly see the present text is being presented to believers ... (for the reason which I shall soon present). you suppose you can break that seal? Are you mightier than the Holy Spirit?

now hold on, you said that scripture did not support my view, I proved it did with hebrews 6. Now at this point you knew that you could not logically defend your position without citing commentaries. So you quoted your best and brightest. So what is to keep me from quoting my best and brightest? I have over ten pages of commentary from top apologists and teachers in the united states.

I post the document here for free download:

John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx

I believe all of your refutation is in effect refuted by that article. If you think it is not, then please repost just the portions that are not addressed.

If you cannot, then I presume this a win for my side. Hebrews six taken in it's most literal and plain sense easily speaks of apostacy. One must allegorize and spiritualize scripture if they are to make it not mean that, and I don't think that is according to the golden rule of hermeneutics "if the plain sense, makes sense, seek no other sense"

 

[createdtoworship]

Article Four: I will simply present the most direct two texts, from the Apostle Paul. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians
I would like to use another familiar text, along with an illustration to show that "walking away" isn't an option. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John
I'm not going to give the "eternal life" and "never perish" arguments, (howbeit they are solid arguments). Rather, I will focus on how the entire Godhead is involved in keeping us secure in our salvation.
1) We first have the fact that we are Redemptively placed IN Christ.
2) We then have the fact that we are placed IN the Father's hand.
3) We finally have the fact that the Holy Spirit "seals" us, "ye are sealed unto the day of redemption". (This isn't the Redemption of the soul, but rather, the final time when we are united, "body, soul, and spirit" in His presence forever.
Now the illustration to make the application ... When my mother used to do canning "way back" ... she would get out her Mason jars, a lid for each jar, and a rubber "seal" to complete each set. After preparing the food that was to be preserved, she would meticulously wipe the rim of each jar, check each lid, then the seal to insure preservation. She would then fill the jar all the way to the top, then quickly place the rubber seal and the lid carefully on the jar, then tighten it as tight as she could. The contents of the jar was hot when it was put into the jar. As the food would cool, it began to contract, causing a vacuum. That vacuum would cause the lid to 'pop' downward, which made that "popping" sound that Mom loved to hear. That "pop" meant that lid had been drawn down in a sufficient amount to cause the lid to become tight enough to "seal" the contents in the jar. The only way to get the food out of that jar was to physically break the seal. It is impossible for the food inside the jar to break that seal! In other words, it just can't simply, walk out. Why? Because it is sealed in the jar.
Here is the application ... When we turn to Christ for salvation, we know we NEED His deliverance from the wrath we so deserve. We should be taught of the reality of hell, and its torments. It is something that no sane person who has been presented with that truth would want to enter willingly, or otherwise. We willingly come to Christ desiring to be delivered, and trust fully in His ability to do just that. In other words, we aren't forced into being delivered from the hell we know we justly deserve. As a matter of fact, when I had salvation explained to me, I was so glad to hear that even though I would sin again, like my earthly father, my Heavenly Father wasn't going to kick me out as I learned to live for Him. Rather, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit would together keep me secure, all the days of my life. I was in the Father's hand (the jar); I was in the Son (the lid); and I was sealed with the Holy Spirit (the seal). I VOLUNTARILY placed myself in their care, trusting them to keep me secure, all the days of my life.
What about "walking away"? First, I would have to ask, Did you understand that you were (and are) being saved from that which you justly deserve? And that torment isn't very pretty? Second, did you not understand that you would be sealed, for your own protection? Third, Is there any sane person who knowing the torments of hell would willingly choose to step out of God's gracious hand? Finally, SINCE (not if) the Scripture teaches we are "sealed", how do you suppose you can break that seal? Are you mightier than the Holy Spirit?

And secondly in reply to your second and third comments which are about other verses regarding assurance etc. I will post more verses on apostacy, as well as a logical case for apostacy, if I don't adress your posts verses, simply repost them and I will adress them, after you adress the verses I posted.


This is the topic that was recently brought up...


do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

as in this verse:
Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?


The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18


¶

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19


“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20


“But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Mat 13:21



“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22


“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23


“But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.




I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy inappropriate content. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child inappropriate contentography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched: Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile




Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?


U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children

 

[Dr. Jack]

now hold on, you said that scripture did not support my view, I proved it did with hebrews 6. Now at this point you knew that you could not logically defend your position without citing commentaries. So you quoted your best and brightest. So what is to keep me from quoting my best and brightest? I have over ten pages of commentary from top apologists and teachers in the united states.

I post the document here for free download:

John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx

I believe all of your refutation is in effect refuted by that article. If you think it is not, then please repost just the portions that are not addressed.

If you cannot, then I presume this a win for my side. Hebrews six taken in it's most literal and plain sense easily speaks of apostacy. One must allegorize and spiritualize scripture if they are to make it not mean that, and I don't think that is according to the golden rule of hermeneutics "if the plain sense, makes sense, seek no other sense"

1) You must have missed the words "I wrote the following three articles on this text, and one on a supporting text"
2) You say Hebrews 6 proves your view ... but the underlying Greek text shows that NOT to be the case.

The key words we need to consider however are "fall away". The number one rule in hermeneutics is context, but we still must consider the Greek word used in this text. When most people see the words "fall away", they automatically assume this must be referring to 'apostasy' because in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the Greek ἀποστασία is rendered "falling away". However, here in Hebrews 6:6, the words fall away are NOT rendered from the Greek ἀποστασία, but rather the Greek παραπεσοντας. (From παρα meaning away, and πιπτω meaning to fall) The key here, is that the Greek does not support apostasy (a falling away that ends in loss of salvation) but rather, a falling away that only severe chastisement from God Himself can bring about.

Since the Greek doesn't support apostasy, why are you?

 

[createdtoworship]

1) You must have missed the words "I wrote the following three articles on this text, and one on a supporting text"
2) You say Hebrews 6 proves your view ... but the underlying Greek text shows that NOT to be the case.



Since the Greek doesn't support apostasy, why are you?

For one let me tell you something. If God desired his word to be in other languages than greek. don't you think He would make salvation issues readily understandable without greek tools? Secondly, I didn't read your article, I posted an article refuting it. But if you wish to post just the actual argument of why it is not supported in greek, I would love to debate you on that issue. I am very equiped to debate greek with you. and I don't doubt it one bit that your sources are biased and most likely in error. So by all means please post a few sentence description of why the greek does not view apostacy in hebrews 6.

 

[Dr. Jack]

And secondly in reply to your second and third comments which are about other verses regarding assurance etc. I will post more verses on apostacy, as well as a logical case for apostacy, if I don't adress your posts verses, simply repost them and I will adress them, after you adress the verses I posted.


This is the topic that was recently brought up...


do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

as in this verse:
Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?


The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18


¶

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19


“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20


“But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Mat 13:21



“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22


“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23


“But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.




I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy inappropriate content. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child inappropriate contentography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched: Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile




Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?


U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children

Let me make two quick points:
1) I'm not a Calvinist. My view of eternal security is not the same as their "P" Perseverance of the Saints, because I believe in "Preservation of the Saints" ... two entirely different concepts.
2) Any Catholic priest that accepts the Catholic version of "salvation" isn't saved Scripturally. Why would you even reference them, when they believe in the "mass" and transubstantiation rather than the single act of Christ at Calvary?

You are using two false teachings to propose that another particular option must be true.

You said, "I dove into the Greek all night".

καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας· ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 6:6

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον, καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:3

Notice: ἀποστασία is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, but NOT in Hebrews 6:6 ... it simply ISN'T there!

Words are defined according to CONTEXT.

The man was correct when he made a right turn.

The man thinks he is right; but he is incorrect.

I used the word "right" in both sentences above, but the context shows the correct meaning.

The underlying Greek word in Hebrews 6:6 is παραπεσόντας, not ἀποστασία. Hence, it does not mean apostasy.

 

[Dr. Jack]

For one let me tell you something. If God desired his word to be in other languages than greek. don't you think He would make salvation issues readily understandable without greek tools? Secondly, I didn't read your article, I posted an article refuting it. But if you wish to post just the actual argument of why it is not supported in greek, I would love to debate you on that issue. I am very equiped to debate greek with you. and I don't doubt it one bit that your sources are biased and most likely in error. So by all means please post a few sentence description of why the greek does not view apostacy in hebrews 6.

You only need to show me the word ἀποστασία in Hebrews 6:6.

My sourse:
καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας· ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 6:6 TR1894 ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 6:6 καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας· | Scrivener’s Textus Receptus 1894 (TR1894) | Download The Bible App Now
(The Greek text of God's word ... specifically Hebrews 6:6) You may consider it biased if you wish ... but that is a pretty Authoritative Person.

Your turn.

 

[Dr. Jack]

For one let me tell you something. If God desired his word to be in other languages than greek. don't you think He would make salvation issues readily understandable without greek tools? Secondly, I didn't read your article, I posted an article refuting it. But if you wish to post just the actual argument of why it is not supported in greek, I would love to debate you on that issue. I am very equiped to debate greek with you. and I don't doubt it one bit that your sources are biased and most likely in error. So by all means please post a few sentence description of why the greek does not view apostacy in hebrews 6.

More sources:
6
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Byzantine Majority
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Alexandrian
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Hort and Westcott
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV

Not one of these has ἀποστασία, ...

Still your turn.

 

[createdtoworship]

Let me make two quick points:
1) I'm not a Calvinist. My view of eternal security is not the same as their "P" Perseverance of the Saints, because I believe in "Preservation of the Saints" ... two entirely different concepts.
2) Any Catholic priest that accepts the Catholic version of "salvation" isn't saved Scripturally.

you are not allowed to say that any group is not saved that believes they are christian. secondly, if the accept the gospel despite the pope, they can be saved very easily. Many catholic churches don't adhere to the seven sacraments or even know of their existence. But you are correct, many still do. But enough do understand the true gospel to use them as an example.

Why would you even reference them, when they believe in the "mass" and transubstantiation rather than the single act of Christ at Calvary?

I already answered this

You are using two false teachings to propose that another particular option must be true.

Not all of catholicism is false.

You said, "I dove into the Greek all night".

καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας· ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 6:6

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον, καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:3

Notice: ἀποστασία is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, but NOT in Hebrews 6:6 ... it simply ISN'T there!

one greek word means a literal falling away, like falling off the way side, and the other a spiritual falling away. However in Hebrews 6 we know they were not talking about a physical falling, so it must have been spiritual falling as per the context of the entire chapter.

Words are defined according to CONTEXT.

The man was correct when he made a right turn.

The man thinks he is right; but he is incorrect.

I used the word "right" in both sentences above, but the context shows the correct meaning.

yes and I defined the words above to mean very similiar things when you take context into consideration.

The underlying Greek word in Hebrews 6:6 is παραπεσόντας, not ἀποστασία. Hence, it does not mean apostasy.

is that all you got? I am actually sad that this debate ended so quickly. Let me know if you have any other greek questions.

here are the two words you are referring to:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

please read the above definitions and then read the context and see how they are very similiar. You are correct, without context they are different words, but in context they are talking about the same falling away.

 

[createdtoworship]

More sources:
6
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Byzantine Majority
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Alexandrian
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV


Hort and Westcott
kai parapesontaV palin anakainizein eiV metanoian anastaurountaV eautoiV ton uion tou qeou kai paradeigmatizontaV

Not one of these has ἀποστασία, ...

Still your turn.

sir this was very easy to refute. Not difficult at all. I hope this wasn't your sole argument. If you want I can study my greek software and quote lexicons and dictionaries that agree with me that these words are talking about the same departure if you want. I can quote commentator after commentator, as who told you there was only one word in greek that talked about apostacy? It can be referred to any one of half a dozen ways, forfeiting salvation, departing, fall away, apostacy. So I don't really understand your difficulty here.