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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    historical documents on christian believe is just theology. Theology is not God's direct word. Theology is simply mans take on God's word. It's best to just stick with the word of God.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, the context is clear for anyone who is willing to see it.

    "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," (Matthew 12:32).​

    Speaking a word against the Son of man is like when people curse the name of Jesus with actual real words. Hence, why it says speaks a word against the Son of Man.

    This is contrasted with speaking against the Holy Ghost.

    Even on the most basic English reading level, we know that if we speak a word against someone, we are speaking bad words against that person. That is what it is saying.
     
  3. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    you obviously haven't read the church fathers, they were anything but OSAS, Augustine and origin were liberal scholars, and had a host of off of the cuff beliefs. But anyway, I have mainly ended debate with you on this topic and most other topics, because you are part of a Christian cult (you believe we are saved by works). I don't think we should encourage your view here, so for now you are blocked, and I will not be addressing your posts on CF any longer. (to see more of my refutations of this posters views, see this thread, this is also where he says we are saved by works)

    Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

    I do not recommend anyone dialogue with this user, He does not have a home church, and he has his own recipe for salvation, one very similiar to Jehovah's witness or mormon. I think he uses this forum to recruit and to gain a following, but I am not for sure positive. Just beware. If he dialogues with you and you need some help, message me. I would love to assist anyone dialoging with this person. But recommend complete withdrawl, as if this view is tolerated, more christian cults will show up here.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    “and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:30-34‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Man made historical documents is really not my thing. We really do not know if men are lying about those records or not. What we can trust is the Bible. The Bible talks about the condemnation of the belief that teaches that we can commit grievous willful sin and still be saved in several places (See: Jude 1:4, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 2:4). You yourself have said that the new Christian (who is carnal) is saved in post #314. If you believe a Christian can sin and still be saved while as a new believer, then clearly this means that a seasoned believer can do the same thing sometimes, too.

    Guilt by association is not always true. The Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean I am Catholic and neither does it mean I think Catholicism is biblical. Neither does it mean I am in approval of Catholicism, either. Also, as I said before, even a blind squirrel can find a nut. Sometimes false roads of salvation (like the JW religion, and Mormonism) can have slivers of truth within them, even though they are clearly not correct or true as a whole.

    Many Christian books say the same thing you are saying in that doing any kind of work for salvation (after one is saved by God's grace) equates with being a Christian cult. But truth is not determined by a majority vote of Christian thinking or what is published in Christian books. Truth is determined by God's Word.

    The Bible clearly teaches both Justification for salvation (God's grace through faith in Christ, believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of one's sins with Him - Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 10:13), and Sanctification for salvation (Holy living and doing good works via by GOD doing the good work through the believer; See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21 cf with 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

    This is not my own recipe for salvation (as you claim), but it is something anyone can read for themselves within the Bible.

    However, you really did not refute any of my points with Scripture, though. You just ended the discussion. There are many verses that went unanswered by you, friend. I gave a list of verses showing how Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process. You replied back, but you did not explain verse by verse what they actually said. In reply, I gave a commentary to the verses in what they said to show how Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process, but you did not reply back to these posts. There were other verses I brought forth even prior before this whereby you did not give an adequate explanation in light of what the text plainly says. Well, folks here do not have to take my word for it. They will be able to read the thread for themselves and see the truth (if they are interested in seeing such a thing).

    How do you know I don't have a home church?
    Do you know my life?
    If you are referring to traditional church:
    There are Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches that believe as I do.
    Christ's Sanctified Holy Church believes the same way as me in regards to Soteriology.
    Besides, believers gathered in each other's homes in the early church days.
    There were no official church organizations like today.
    Also, just because a person attends church on Sundays does not mean their heart is right with the Lord and they are doing his will. Church is wherever the body of believers is gathered together and it does not have to be on a Sunday.

    I have not recruited anyone on the forums.
    I am not expecting many to follow what I say with Scripture because Jesus said narrow is the way. I also believe we are in the last days and many have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

    Truth should not be hidden behind closed doors via by private messages. Truth should be able to stand up to scrutiny in the public eye for all to see and to discuss openly. I believe it is the cults that try to hide things in secret. But you are free to believe as you wish. The problem I have with Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security is that it leads to making light of sin, and that a person can live however they like as long as they have a belief on Jesus. While OSAS proponents or Belief Alone Adherents may say otherwise and they also teach that a born again person will live a holy life, I also hear these same folk turn around at a later time and say that the believer can sin and still be saved, too. It is an inconsistent belief in my view or opinion. It is also not in line with what I believe the Scriptures plainly say, either. But do not take my word for it. Check the verses for yourself within my post here. Slowly read through those verses and pray about them.

    In any event, I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus (even if we strongly disagree on the topic of Soteriology).

    With loving kindness to you in Christ,

    Sincerely,

    ~ J.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You are also replying to my post on Matthew 12:32. Notice how you did not actually give a reply to what I said with the Scriptures on this verse. I even highlighted the words within the verse to show you that your belief here on the blasphemy of the Spirit is not biblical. But you did not give an adequate explanation in return to defend against my point, friend.

    Anyways, may God bless you (even if we disagree).
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    He should’ve mentioned John 15:1-10, Matthew 25:31-46, and James 2:14-26 as well. All these scriptures support what he is saying and I support him as well. I know you disagree with him but honestly you should re-examine your post and the manner of your reply compared to his. I believe you owe him an apology. He didn’t deserve such a spiteful response friend. We’re all here to serve The Lord the best we can. We may not always agree but we can at least remain civil towards one another in our discussions and refrain from wild accusations and disrespectful remarks. I’m sure it’s safe to say that we all love Christ here and we are all brothers & sisters in Him. God bless.
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Or the translation you're reading is incorrect.
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I am sorry I didn't specify, however this particular poster is posting works salvation in another thread, works salvation is a christian heresy and is not allowed on these threads. I am sorry if you missunderstood. One can believe in apostacy or believe in osas, and be saved, that is is a minor theological issue. This whole thread is peripheral issues. However if someone is mentioning that we are saved by works, and not just grace through faith. then that is not allowed here. I hope that makes sense. Legalism and pharisaism is the only thing in the new testament that made Christ actually angry. Hosts of other sins never made Christ angry, alcoholism, prostitution, homosexuality.....but legalism made Him upset, that is because they shut off the kingdom of heaven and discourage people from being saved. Matthew 23:13. Anyway, I won't be posting here any more, I am not into doing debates, I created this thread when I was debating, and don't actually agree with the principle of debate anymore. I believe we should unite in faith, christians have many views, some are democrats, some are conservative, some are pro life, others are prochoice, some are premillenial, others are post. There are simply too many variables to fight about it online with strangers. It's best to unite, and love on each other. However works salvation is simply not something that we can question. It's the same gospel that mormons and jehovah's witnesses have. Anyway, if you wish to message me I would love that, we can talk more. But I won't be monitoring this debate or any other debate for that matter, and will be in christian advice probably. I feel that that is an honorable place for christians to be. Fighting and bickering about theology, is not really Christ like. I just learned this in the last few months, and more so in the last week, so be patient with me as I try to be more Christ like. Christian debates is bad for believers in general because the debates tend to focus on trivial, divisive issues. If you take any divisive, or controversial issue and make it your main focus, you harbor doubt and a host of other issues. It's best to simply talk about and unite over Christ. I know this type of talk is not what many want on CF, and that is ok. But it is something we should strive for.

    thanks
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, actually that is not true. I actually I do not believe in Works Alone Salvationism (Which is what the phrase "Works salvation" implies). I believe the 1st work of God is that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (Which includes accepting Jesus as one's Savior, believing in his death and resurrection on one's behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of one's sins with Him) (a.k.a. The Justification Process). After we are saved by God's grace, I believe the 2nd work of God is the working of all three persons of the Trinity within the life of the believer to make them live holy and to do good works (a.k.a. The Sanctification Process). Both processes of salvation involve GOD doing the good work, and the believer merely cooperates with the good work the Lord wants to do through our lives. So all boasting, praise, and glorying goes to the LORD and not to ourselves or men.

    That is not true. Please read the statement of purpose of this section of the forums again, and the statement of faith for this website. Nothing is said about how one is not allowed to post in the Christian Only section of the forums if they believe that one is saved by both God's grace through faith + Sanctification (Holy living and or works of faith). I have debate on these forums for a long time, and I have even argued my position with moderators present. I was not banned from the Christian forums section as a result of my view of Soteriology (of which I believe the Bible teaches).

    But I never said we are not saved by God's grace through faith. That is your false assertion that is simply not true. I have even created multiple threads stating that we are saved by "God's grace through faith + Sanctification" many times. So you cannot change the record of what people know about what I stated in regards to my view of Soteriology.

    The word "legalism" has a wide variety of meanings and definitions by many and nobody truly all agrees on it's definition. So what do you mean by Legalism? Please quote the chapter and verse that says that Christ was angry at what you define as Legalism. Yes, it is true, that Jesus was against man made traditions or laws, but Jesus was never against adhering to God's laws or commandments. Jesus said that the problem with the Pharisees is that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (like do not murder, do not covet, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor) (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that loving God, and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus told the lawyer to "Do this, and you will live." (See: Luke 10:25-28).

    Even after the cross: Paul taught that loving GOD plays a part in our salvation when He said in 1 Corinthians 16:22, that if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is GOD) let them be accursed. In 1 John 3:10, the apostle John says that the person who does not righteousness or does not love their brother is not of GOD. He says this is how we can tell the person of GOD vs. one who is of the devil. For John says that whoever hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). One's brother is their neighbor. So loving one's neighbor is a part of eternal life.

    Please understand again, that nobody can obey GOD or His commands without first being saved by God's grace through faith. A believer cannot also get clean again without God's grace, as well. For if a believer sins, do they do a good work to be saved again or to be cleansed? No. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

    Matthew 23:1-13 is about the Pharisees seeking to look good in front of others by what they do and it is about their own hypocrisy. In verse 13, Jesus calls them hypocrites. So the focus here is hypocrisy and not a strict over adherence to law over God's grace if that is how you define Legalism. While we cannot be saved without first receiving God's grace through faith in Christ, if Jesus was against the strict adherence of Law, then why did He teach that we have to keep the commandments to enter into life? (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Why did Jesus agree with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love GOD, and to love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life? (See: Luke 10:25-28).

    One place I see in the Bible where Legalism or an overemphasis of Law over grace is improperly applied is in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The problem was that the Pharisee was not seeking forgiveness of his sins with God like the tax collector was doing. The Pharisee did not allow for the Tax Collector to experience God's grace because he himself did not have grace in the fact that he did not cry out to GOD for the forgiveness of his sins. For the Pharisee, it was all law and no grace. He truly believed in Law Alone Salvationism (and no grace).

    It is written:

    "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him." (Acts of the Apostles 17:17).

    "He refuted the Jews with powerful arguments in public debate. Using the Scriptures, he explained to them that Jesus was the Messiah." (Acts of the Apostles 18:28) (NLT).

    "Saul’s preaching became more and more powerful, and the Jews in Damascus couldn’t refute his proofs that Jesus was indeed the Messiah." (Acts of the Apostles 9:22) (NLT).

    "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3).

    As I said to you before, a blind squirrel can find a nut. Usually a false road to salvation will have some sliver of truth to it so as to make it believable in some way. But guilt by association is not always true. I believe in the Trinity, but just because Catholics agree with the Trinity does not mean the Trinity is not true. Yes, we both do not agree with Catholicism, but that does not mean that the Trinity is not true just because we disagree with certain things they do or teach.

    Discussing the topic of salvation (According to the Bible) is definitely worth debating over in my opinion. Over the years I have learned a lot. I have learned patience, love, and diplomacy. I have learned the importance of God's good ways, as well. God is good, and His people are a reflection of Him. For God tells us: "Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16). Of course, holy living is only possible by God's grace (See: Titus 2:11-12, Ephesians 5:25-27, Romans 5:21).

    In any event, I hope God's love and peace be upon you in a strong way today.

    With loving kindness to you in Christ (even if we disagree),

    Sincerely,

    ~ J.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I don’t see him teachings works based salvation I see him teaching that God has expectations of His children. Christ did get very angry about other sins. You mentioned drunkenness prostitution and homosexuality but these passages strictly forbid this type of behavior and specifically say that such people will not enter heaven.

    “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Galatians 5:19-21

    Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

    Ephesians 5:3-6

    Obeying God’s commandments is not legalism. Legalism is seeking to be justified (made right with God) by works or obedience. Works cannot pay for sins, only Christ can atone for our sins which is attained by grace thru having faith. Once a person has been justified (made right with God) by faith that doesn’t mean the person cannot be made wrong with God afterwards. John 15:2 Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit. John 15:6 He says anyone who doesn’t abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Both of these are referring to believers. Romans 11:17-23 Paul says those who have been grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be broken off for being conceited or unbelief and can also be grafted back in if they repent. God has two main expectations of His children which are necessary for receiving salvation. Love God with all your heart soul and mind and love others as Jesus loves us. Jesus’ BIGGEST emphasis was always love. Love inspires us to do what pleases God. Look at the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats in Matthew 25:41-46.

    “"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    What do all these examples in His explanation have in common? The goats did not have love for others. James 2:14-16 gives a similar example. Faith without love is not a saving faith. Paul had this to say about faith without love.

    “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  12. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Here is another good verse about our eternal salvation.
    Christ is our eternal high priest.
    Since he saves us to the utmost, and he has this unchangeable priesthood in that he ever lives to make intercession for us, then our salvation is certain. Christ is entirely different than any another other priest. Through His intercession we draw near to God.

    Hebrews 7
    17 For He testifies:

    “You are a priest forever
    According to the order of Melchizedek.”

    18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Greatness of the New Priest
    20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

    “The Lord has sworn
    And will not relent,
    ‘You are a priest forever
    According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”),

    22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

    23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The Lord Jesus prayed for Peter that he would be turned back to Christ, and he did. The intercession of Christ is what makes our salvation certain. Christ does not pray for any except for those whom the Father gives to Him. And notice Christ did not pray for Judas.

    Jesus said this here
    John 17
    9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
     
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