Can you lose your salvation

[Dr. Jack]

For one let me tell you something. If God desired his word to be in other languages than greek. don't you think He would make salvation issues readily understandable without greek tools?

Yes, and God clearly teaches eternal security of the believer.

Secondly, I didn't read your article, I posted an article refuting it.

How can you refute something you haven't even read?

But if you wish to post just the actual argument of why it is not supported in greek, I would love to debate you on that issue.

I just presented the text of Hebrews 6:6 in Greek ...

I am very equiped to debate greek with you. and I don't doubt it one bit that your sources are biased and most likely in error. So by all means please post a few sentence description of why the greek does not view apostacy in hebrews 6.

The word ἀποστασία is not in the text. Need I continue?

 

[Dr. Jack]

sir this was very easy to refute. Not difficult at all. I hope this wasn't your sole argument. If you want I can study my greek software and quote lexicons and dictionaries that agree with me that these words are talking about the same departure if you want. I can quote commentator after commentator, as who told you there was only one word in greek that talked about apostacy? It can be referred to any one of half a dozen ways, forfeiting salvation, departing, fall away, apostacy. So I don't really understand your difficulty here.

I write articles, and Bible lessons regularly. I'm not going to lie and say I've never read commentaries, (I have literally a library of them, along with many other books of reference). Truly however, I am a writer, and teacher.

You have admitted that you haven't read my articles; yet, you insist I read articles that support your position. Tell me; why should I?

You say that you have refuted my position, then say, if I don't present a better argument, you'll take that as a win for you.

I'm not sure you understand how real debates work! There is this thing called hermeneutics, and exegesis, presenting Biblical evidence. You want apostacy in Hebrews so bad, you can taste it! Unfortunately for you, the text doesn't support your position.

I presented a four part article on Hebrews 6:6, along with two supporting Scriptures on eternal security of the believer, and you ignored them.

You tell me how equipped you are to argue the Greek, when the Greek doesn't support apostasy. Then you say, Is that all you got?

Lesson One:

In my first year of Bible college I learned the most fundamental rule of Bible teaching ...

... You can't build Bible doctrine on what the Bible doesn't say.

Nowhere in Hebrews 6 1-6 is apostasy mentioned, especially not in the Greek. Putting something into the text that isn't there is formally known as eisegesis. Exegesis means "to draw out"; while eisegesis means "to draw in". You are practicing eisegesis when you try to put apostasy into a text, that does not support apostasy either in English, or Greek.

 

[Dr. Jack]

you are not allowed to say that any group is not saved that believes they are christian. secondly, if the accept the gospel despite the pope, they can be saved very easily. Many catholic churches don't adhere to the seven sacraments or even know of their existence. But you are correct, many still do. But enough do understand the true gospel to use them as an example.

I already answered this


Not all of catholicism is false.



one greek word means a literal falling away, like falling off the way side, and the other a spiritual falling away. However in Hebrews 6 we know they were not talking about a physical falling, so it must have been spiritual falling as per the context of the entire chapter.

yes and I defined the words above to mean very similiar things when you take context into consideration.

is that all you got? I am actually sad that this debate ended so quickly. Let me know if you have any other greek questions.

here are the two words you are referring to:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

please read the above definitions and then read the context and see how they are very similiar. You are correct, without context they are different words, but in context they are talking about the same falling away.

When I was raising my children, I emphasized using proper words, and proper grammar. As a Bible student in Bible college, I was taught to examine words carefully, and learned that God specifically used the words He did in Scripture for a very good reason ... to be clear about what He was communicating to us!

If God meant apostasy in Hebrews 6, why is it in neither the English, nor the Greek?

Think about it!

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, and God clearly teaches eternal security of the believer.


How can you refute something you haven't even read?


I just presented the text of Hebrews 6:6 in Greek ...


The word ἀποστασία is not in the text. Need I continue?

yes this was already refuted, I guess you didn't read it yet.

 

[createdtoworship]

I write articles, and Bible lessons regularly. I'm not going to lie and say I've never read commentaries, (I have literally a library of them, along with many other books of reference). Truly however, I am a writer, and teacher.

You have admitted that you haven't read my articles; yet, you insist I read articles that support your position. Tell me; why should I?

You say that you have refuted my position, then say, if I don't present a better argument, you'll take that as a win for you.

I'm not sure you understand how real debates work! There is this thing called hermeneutics, and exegesis, presenting Biblical evidence. You want apostacy in Hebrews so bad, you can taste it! Unfortunately for you, the text doesn't support your position.

I presented a four part article on Hebrews 6:6, along with two supporting Scriptures on eternal security of the believer, and you ignored them.

You tell me how equipped you are to argue the Greek, when the Greek doesn't support apostasy. Then you say, Is that all you got?

Lesson One:

In my first year of Bible college I learned the most fundamental rule of Bible teaching ...

... You can't build Bible doctrine on what the Bible doesn't say.

Nowhere in Hebrews 6 1-6 is apostasy mentioned, especially not in the Greek. Putting something into the text that isn't there is formally known as eisegesis. Exegesis means "to draw out"; while eisegesis means "to draw in". You are practicing eisegesis when you try to put apostasy into a text, that does not support apostasy either in English, or Greek.

I appreciated you mentioning about apostacy in the greek with hebrews six. I refuted it, and you didn't comment on my refutation at all, but find little nit picks wrong with my post. I debate every day. Usually I don't have other believers insulting me, and boasting about their accomplishments. But I can see that you are lacking in actual facts of the matter. And this creates a bitterness inside, I can explain the exact process that is involved, but it means dealing with two internal contradictions, and it creates insecurity and doubt in the mind of the believer until it is resolved. This has happened to me in the past. It is quite stressful. In fact contradiction in scripture, as well as a layoff during the financial crisis allowed me to have a nervous breakdown. I was twisting so many scriptures to defend my weak position. Once I repented of that doctrine, I found simply reading the Bible every day is much more useful that loads of commentaries. I used to be proud of my theological expertise, and my accomplishments but then I realized I am just a tool. If God wants to pick up another tool on the tool bench, and bench me permanently, He can do so. But He hasn't yet. Anyway. Again I don't mind debating you, but if I sense pride, belittling, mocking or any of the sort of unchristian behaviour, I will stop debating you, ok? So again, you said greek disagrees with hebrews six. I already said that apostacy can be called by many different things. Falling away, departing from the faith, loss of salvation, forfeiting salvation. Departing from God, Departing from salvation. Simply because one greek word is not in hebrews six does not mean that apostacy was not talked about in hebrews six. Again I posted this hours ago, yet no reply. So please respond to all posts.

 

[createdtoworship]

When I was raising my children, I emphasized using proper words, and proper grammar. As a Bible student in Bible college, I was taught to examine words carefully, and learned that God specifically used the words He did in Scripture for a very good reason ... to be clear about what He was communicating to us!

If God meant apostasy in Hebrews 6, why is it in neither the English, nor the Greek?

Think about it!

the word used in hebrews six, literally means falling away.

so it is mentioned !

the word for apostacy means a spiritual falling away.

in hebrews six it mentioned a physical falling away, however based on the context of the chapter we know that it was a spritual discussion, not a warning about tripping and falling on the road or something. Surely you can see this.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I think the other guy is too far gone, but you seem to have a respect to what many modern pastors and theologians believe regarding this. I have included two church fathers, showing that my interpretations are not new, but have been believed for thousands of years of church history. Secondly, eighty to ninety percent of the following commentators believe the blasphemy of the spirit could also refer to rejecting the work of the spirit in Christ's life through the gospel.

I made a document like I said I would, it took about an hour. So I hope you will at least read some of it. The top two are from my most respected commentator, I really like radmacher, he was a Bible translator and seminary professor at dallas for many years I believe:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism.

Blasphemy of the Holy spirit

download it and keep a copy.

your welcome, that sheet is almost twenty pages long of commentaries all talking about the passage.

The word blasphēmeō means to speak evil against.

Jesus drew a line (so to speak) between thinking, and speaking. I was raised by foster parents (very good ones). My second cousin also was in our home, and he was ten years older than me. Upon turning 18, my cousin joined the Army. When he returned from training, my dad asked him to go hook up a particular piece of equipment to a tractor. My cousin told my dad that he was now a man, and my dad could go do it himself. My dad did something that I had never before heard ... he repeated himself.

I literally froze on the spot I was standing! My dad NEVER repeated Himself, ever.

My cousin proceded to challenge my dad. It went from a verbal challenge, to a physical challenge. My dad was 56 years old, and my cousin was almost 19. I watched my dad man-handle my cousin like a 20 lb. sack of potatoes. By the time my dad was done, my cousin was literally begging to be allowed to go hook up the tractor.

When I was 17 years old, my parents had built a new home and we (my dad and I), used a garden rake, and a shovel to gather the stones out of the yard, prior to sowing grass. It was a long and hard job. At a particular point, my dad told me to get the wheelbarrow so I could haul the stones to a distant location.

When my dad told me that, my first thought was, "Go get it yourself"! But all of a sudden, I had a flashback to my cousin being beaten by this same man! The next thing that came out of my mouth was, "Yes Sir"!

The word blasphēmeō (blasphemy) has a particular meaning. When we take it upon ourselves to give words meanings that are not in Scripture, we fall into the area of eisegesis.

The article you presented is full of supposition that is based upon personal opinion, rather than the meaning of the actual words of Scripture.

 

[Dr. Jack]

apparently their is a line that once crossed, even God will proclaim all is lost.

I don't know where that line is, and neither do you.

but at some point in our disbelief, if it is rooted in a sin, we will start to defend our sin over the truth of God's word. Another example is not getting rooted in a church and satan implanting doubts about the Bible and Jesus, doubts that stay with them. Another example is someone who gets saved and grows quickly but then the cares of the world choke Him out. He starts caring more about material, mammon, and things than God, which is idolatry. He also loses His salvation. But the point being that at any point if they repent they can be saved, but I think there is a line in unbelief at which there is no turning back. Not from God's end of things, but from our end, we no longer desire repentance for something we don't believe in, and so the apostasy stays.

You said that God makes things clear concerning salvation in the English Bible ... I agree.

So why didn't God clearly define the point of our "falling away" that results in loss of salvation?

 

[createdtoworship]

The word blasphēmeō means to speak evil against.

Jesus drew a line (so to speak) between thinking, and speaking. I was raised by foster parents (very good ones). My second cousin also was in our home, and he was ten years older than me. Upon turning 18, my cousin joined the Army. When he returned from training, my dad asked him to go hook up a particular piece of equipment to a tractor. My cousin told my dad that he was now a man, and my dad could go do it himself. My dad did something that I had never before heard ... he repeated himself.

I literally froze on the spot I was standing! My dad NEVER repeated Himself, ever.

My cousin proceded to challenge my dad. It went from a verbal challenge, to a physical challenge. My dad was 56 years old, and my cousin was almost 19. I watched my dad man-handle my cousin like a 20 lb. sack of potatoes. By the time my dad was done, my cousin was literally begging to be allowed to go hook up the tractor.

When I was 17 years old, my parents had built a new home and we (my dad and I), used a garden rake, and a shovel to gather the stones out of the yard, prior to sowing grass. It was a long and hard job. At a particular point, my dad told me to get the wheelbarrow so I could haul the stones to a distant location.

When my dad told me that, my first thought was, "Go get it yourself"! But all of a sudden, I had a flashback to my cousin being beaten by this same man! The next thing that came out of my mouth was, "Yes Sir"!

The word blasphēmeō (blasphemy) has a particular meaning. When we take it upon ourselves to give words meanings that are not in Scripture, we fall into the area of eisegesis.

The article you presented is full of supposition that is based upon personal opinion, rather than the meaning of the actual words of Scripture.

I doubt you read that entire 20 page document, and came to the conclusion that there was no greek spoken of there. Besides there is a direct contradiction with other scripture if you believe that blasphemy merely speaks of cursing out the Holy Spirit. Which who does by the way? I don't know any who have done that.

 

[createdtoworship]

The word blasphēmeō means to speak evil against.

Jesus drew a line (so to speak) between thinking, and speaking. I was raised by foster parents (very good ones). My second cousin also was in our home, and he was ten years older than me. Upon turning 18, my cousin joined the Army. When he returned from training, my dad asked him to go hook up a particular piece of equipment to a tractor. My cousin told my dad that he was now a man, and my dad could go do it himself. My dad did something that I had never before heard ... he repeated himself.

I literally froze on the spot I was standing! My dad NEVER repeated Himself, ever.

My cousin proceded to challenge my dad. It went from a verbal challenge, to a physical challenge. My dad was 56 years old, and my cousin was almost 19. I watched my dad man-handle my cousin like a 20 lb. sack of potatoes. By the time my dad was done, my cousin was literally begging to be allowed to go hook up the tractor.

When I was 17 years old, my parents had built a new home and we (my dad and I), used a garden rake, and a shovel to gather the stones out of the yard, prior to sowing grass. It was a long and hard job. At a particular point, my dad told me to get the wheelbarrow so I could haul the stones to a distant location.

When my dad told me that, my first thought was, "Go get it yourself"! But all of a sudden, I had a flashback to my cousin being beaten by this same man! The next thing that came out of my mouth was, "Yes Sir"!

The word blasphēmeō (blasphemy) has a particular meaning. When we take it upon ourselves to give words meanings that are not in Scripture, we fall into the area of eisegesis.

The article you presented is full of supposition that is based upon personal opinion, rather than the meaning of the actual words of Scripture.

thanks for sharing about your past,

 

[createdtoworship]

You said that God makes things clear concerning salvation in the English Bible ... I agree.

So why didn't God clearly define the point of our "falling away" that results in loss of salvation?

Oh He did, the parable of the sewer. I will post it again later, when I am home.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I appreciated you mentioning about apostacy in the greek with hebrews six. I refuted it, and you didn't comment on my refutation at all, but find little nit picks wrong with my post. I debate every day. Usually I don't have other believers insulting me, and boasting about their accomplishments. But I can see that you are lacking in actual facts of the matter. And this creates a bitterness inside, I can explain the exact process that is involved, but it means dealing with two internal contradictions, and it creates insecurity and doubt in the mind of the believer until it is resolved. This has happened to me in the past. It is quite stressful. In fact contradiction in scripture, as well as a layoff during the financial crisis allowed me to have a nervous breakdown. I was twisting so many scriptures to defend my weak position. Once I repented of that doctrine, I found simply reading the Bible every day is much more useful that loads of commentaries. I used to be proud of my theological expertise, and my accomplishments but then I realized I am just a tool. If God wants to pick up another tool on the tool bench, and bench me permanently, He can do so. But He hasn't yet. Anyway. Again I don't mind debating you, but if I sense pride, belittling, mocking or any of the sort of unchristian behaviour, I will stop debating you, ok? So again, you said greek disagrees with hebrews six. I already said that apostacy can be called by many different things. Falling away, departing from the faith, loss of salvation, forfeiting salvation. Departing from God, Departing from salvation. Simply because one greek word is not in hebrews six does not mean that apostacy was not talked about in hebrews six. Again I posted this hours ago, yet no reply. So please respond to all posts.

You stated ...

I appreciated you mentioning about apostacy in the greek with hebrews six. I refuted it, and you didn't comment on my refutation at all,

Would you be so kind as to present your argument again?

 

[createdtoworship]

You stated ...

Would you be so kind as to present your argument again?

here is the post where I talked about the definition of apostacy:

Can you lose your salvation

 

[createdtoworship]

You said that God makes things clear concerning salvation in the English Bible ... I agree.

So why didn't God clearly define the point of our "falling away" that results in loss of salvation?

I said I would post my verses later, God makes salvation perfectly clear in every language. I believe God's spirit helped translators to relay the proper words, that does not mean every translation is without error, but I believe the salvation aspect is translated at least in way that is comprehendible. As part of that comprehension is a warning not to fall away.

do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

as in this verse:
Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?


The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18


¶

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19


“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20


“But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Mat 13:21



“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22


“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23


“But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.

 

[Dr. Jack]

you are not allowed to say that any group is not saved that believes they are christian. secondly, if the accept the gospel despite the pope, they can be saved very easily. Many catholic churches don't adhere to the seven sacraments or even know of their existence. But you are correct, many still do. But enough do understand the true gospel to use them as an example.

I already answered this


Not all of catholicism is false.



one greek word means a literal falling away, like falling off the way side, and the other a spiritual falling away. However in Hebrews 6 we know they were not talking about a physical falling, so it must have been spiritual falling as per the context of the entire chapter.

yes and I defined the words above to mean very similiar things when you take context into consideration.

is that all you got? I am actually sad that this debate ended so quickly. Let me know if you have any other greek questions.

here are the two words you are referring to:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

please read the above definitions and then read the context and see how they are very similiar. You are correct, without context they are different words, but in context they are talking about the same falling away.

I understand what these words mean. Can you give me a specific reference in Scripture in which a person is given eternal life, but did not actually get eternal life?

 

[createdtoworship]

I understand what these words mean. Can you give me a specific reference in Scripture in which a person is given eternal life, but did not actually get eternal life?

well once it's given, it's there. God does not take it back. But the person can refuse it. At any time we want we may reject His salvation. We are totally secure from outside sources, but we may leave the security of salvation. In the passages, they were all living plants, plants in scripture symbolize life. However all perished from not being planted, or from the sun, or from the birds of the air.

 

[Dr. Jack]

well once it's given, it's there. God does not take it back. But the person can refuse it. At any time we want we may reject His salvation. We are totally secure from outside sources, but we may leave the security of salvation. In the passages, they were all living plants, plants in scripture symbolize life. However all perished from not being planted, or from the sun, or from the birds of the air.

I specifically asked, Can you give me a specific reference in Scripture in which a person is given eternal life, but did not actually get eternal life?

In other words, can you give me a Scripture reference where it clearly states that a saved person willingly chose to reject eternal life?

7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

In the above text we see that true repentance "to salvation" is a repentance that is irreversible. Notice, the words, "not to be repented of".

This is why I your position is not possible. Once a person truly repents to salvation, it is because he truly realizes who he is, along with his eternal fate without Christ. No person who truly repents to salvation will ever repent of that repentance.

This is also why John said,
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John

This is also why the word παραπίπτω is in Hebrews 6:6 and not ἀποστασία as in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. In Thessalonians Paul is describing the state of religion in the time before the coming of Christ. Look at the false teachings that are being presented in Christianity today. Is that not "apostasy"? Has there not been a falling away of the true gospel itself?

In Galatians 1 Paul states:
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians

How many false gospels are being taught this very morning in churches across America? How many versions of 'be saved this way' are being taught? Has there not been a great falling away of the truth? Is this not the apostasy that Paul spoke of? Paul wasn't referring to people rejecting eternal life after having received it; he was speaking of what is happening in churches this very day!

 

[createdtoworship]

I specifically asked, Can you give me a specific reference in Scripture in which a person is given eternal life, but did not actually get eternal life?

In other words, can you give me a Scripture reference where it clearly states that a saved person willingly chose to reject eternal life?

7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

In the above text we see that true repentance "to salvation" is a repentance that is irreversible. Notice, the words, "not to be repented of".

This is why I your position is not possible. Once a person truly repents to salvation, it is because he truly realizes who he is, along with his eternal fate without Christ. No person who truly repents to salvation will ever repent of that repentance.

This is also why John said,
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John

This is also why the word παραπίπτω is in Hebrews 6:6 and not ἀποστασία as in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. In Thessalonians Paul is describing the state of religion in the time before the coming of Christ. Look at the false teachings that are being presented in Christianity today. Is that not "apostasy"? Has there not been a falling away of the true gospel itself?

In Galatians 1 Paul states:
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians

How many false gospels are being taught this very morning in churches across America? How many versions of 'be saved this way' are being taught? Has there not been a great falling away of the truth? Is this not the apostasy that Paul spoke of? Paul wasn't referring to people rejecting eternal life after having received it; he was speaking of what is happening in churches this very day!

yes in these following verses:


Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, Hebrews six mentions falling away as well. Again He says "brothers." so they were believers.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?


The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18


¶

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19


“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20


“But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Mat 13:21



“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22


“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23


“But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.

 

[Dr. Jack]

yes in these following verses:


Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, Hebrews six mentions falling away as well. Again He says "brothers." so they were believers.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?

Are we not "turn[ing] away from God" every time we sin?

This verse does not equate turning away from God with not receiving eternal life. This is a warning that does not include a mention of "denying eternal life"

The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18


¶

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19


“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20


“But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

Mat 13:21



“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22


“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23


“But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.

Yet not a single verse that states what I specifically asked for.

Again:

Can you give me a specific reference in Scripture in which a person is given eternal life, but did not actually get eternal life?

 

[createdtoworship]

Are we not "turn[ing] away from God" every time we sin?

This verse does not equate turning away from God with not receiving eternal life. This is a warning that does not include a mention of "denying eternal life"


Yet not a single verse that states what I specifically asked for.

Again:

you must use expositional constancy, that means using the emediate text involved. If it mentions turning away, then later it mentions falling.

then there is a progression, it starts by turning away and ends in falling.

so you need to take all of the passage into consideration.

just step away from the greek books, and commentaries, and preconceptions and just read the passage, like you would if you were a child.

how does it sound?

what does the actual words say?

it says you can drift, doubt, turn away, and fall, those are all individual subjects within the book of hebrews, I have in my Bible them highlighted as a progression.

I may have a few mixed up because my Bible is not with me.

but you see the point.