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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    again are you suggesting that the gospel seed is planted and grows into a seedling, yet is not saved? That is very peculiar.
     
  2. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    But nowhere does it say I no longer have my eternal life.
     
  3. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    again in all of those verses where it talks about planting the seed of the gospel, are you suggesting, all those living plants are dead?
     
  4. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Were we talking about Hebrews 6? Or are we trying to put apostasy in the parable of the sower?
     
  5. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    sir please answer the question, in the case of the parable of the sewer, are the plants living christians or dead ones, not christian?
     
  6. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    The parable isn't about the "plants", it's a out the "soil".
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Again, are plants living or dead?
     
  8. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Your question presupposes that the plants are all equal ... hence, you are missing the point of the parable. The point of the parable is that the seeds only grow to maturity in the proper soil.

    You must change the focus of the entire parable to be about the plant, rather than being about the soil.

    Unless the seed falls in the right soul, the plant will never reach maturity (True salvation).
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    it should be an easy question, are plants alive or dead? It's only one of two choices. If they are dead they why are they growing? If that are alive, then why did they die in the parable of the sower. I think you don't want to answer this question because it proves I do have several verses that indicate that something that is alive, is dying because it leaves the faith.
     
  10. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, the purpose of the parables isn't to prove salvation can be lost. If that were the case, Jesus would have simply stated that to His disciples.

    The purpose of the parable was to point out the type of soil it takes to both, be saved, and bear fruit. None of the first three soils allowed the plant to firmly grow. By having no root, or by being choked out by their environment, the first three soils didn't allow the plant to reach maturity.

    Thus it is with the hearts of men and the gospel. Until the gospel lands on a heart that has been made ready by the Spirit of God, no matter how much it LOOKS like people are genuinely saved, they are not.
     
  11. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    So if the parable is about the soil, I won't argue again't that for now. Say you are right. Even then they can't bear fruit of the are spiritually dead so you admit all of the plants were alive and apparently can die. So thanks for proving my point. So yes there are verses that speak of losing salvatiin. But see post one, sinning cannot remove salvation only if by your free will you decide not to be saved anymore can you plant die. Mainly because of external situations descriptioned in the parable. Tribulation without a church body can cause a new convert nit to grow and to wither during a trial. Makes perfect sense. You can't expect a new christian to be saved perpetually with no input, no encouragement, no disciplship. Without water and nutrients a plant dies.
     
  12. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    You have a really great habit of presenting ideas, but no Scripture that actually states what you say.

    In the thread concerning Bible versions you talk about how bad Dynamic Equivalence is, but that is all you do, allegorize every Scripture you consider.
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    because it is logic that I am attesting to. Say I ask you to quote me word for word, and you use dynamic equivalence instead. That is rewriting what I actually said, That would be offensive to me. But for some reason God is not offended by it? And as far as allegorizing, I have proven how the majority of occasions in the bible you don't agree with, however you allegorize where you have to. Then I pointed out how a plant is alive, it has to be, yet you allegorize that to not mean alive in reality, and somehow it is only referring to the dirt, not the whole passage. Seriously, you should reflect upon your views more. See when I was in free grace, I had to reinterpret literally a hundred verses where it talked about repenting for salvation. It was so much mental gymnastics, that I vowed to never do it again. It literally caused me, or aided me in a mental breakdown, which took years to recover from. See your working way to hard trying to come up with alternatives to what the Bible actually says. That is too much work! You have to literally figure out dozens or more verses and how they can't contradict your view. It's much better to just believe what is said, and change the perspective to what is said. So far there is no verse you post that I don't agree with, but I have posted verses that you disagree with. That should concern you, if you have to change what was said, to match your viewpoint, your doing it wrong.
     
  14. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said,
    13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke
    Are you saying that Jesus should also reflect more on His views?
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I agree with salvic repentance, but there was one time where I didn't. so I understand your frustration having to reinterpret scripture to match a dogma that is not in the bible. Calvinism is not in scripture.
     
  16. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Are you insinuating that I am a Calvinist?
     
  17. sungaunga

    sungaunga Junior Member

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    ^__^
     
  18. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    sir, OSAS was an invention of calvin I think in what the sixteenth century. It did help somewhat as far as seeing what eternal security was, but church fathers did not believe in security of the believer at all as far as OSAS. What I am getting at was it was not a common doctrine till about four hundred years ago, it was a late doctrine.
     
  19. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    1) You need to understand that I am NOT a Calvinist.
    2) However, I believe in using historical documents to show that particular beliefs existed long before many assert their origins.

    The case in reference here is, the eternal security of the believer - OSAS - as being in existence long before the days of Calvin.

    Here is an article presented by a Calvinist that shows the existence of the OSAS doctrine PRIOR to Calvin.

    Why Do We And St. Augustine Believe “Once Saved Always Saved”?

    So much for you last post ... Refuted.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  20. Torben Roth

    Torben Roth New Member

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    Hello bathelter0,
    How are you doing? I read your posts a few days ago and i can identify myself with you. I am in a similar situation. I also dont know what to do. I'd like to talk to you abou how it is going with you
     
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