Can you lose your salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

I have been studying this topic for over 15 years, and have been to bible college. I have wrote a theological journal on this very topic and a book. So I understand that you feel you fully understand this topic, but it can be tricky. From the outside it looks like you found a website or a book, that made sense to you, so you followed down that rabbit trail fully and only looked at certain verses that prove your point, and you ignore all other verses. Verses that entail security of the believer, you omit or over look entirely. There is only one sin that Jesus didn't die for, and that unbelief. lack of faith is in fact a sin. And that is the sin He never died for. That is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. All other sins were paid for fully on the cross. Holiness churches typically will have the wrong version of salvation. At least not the one fully shown in the scriptures. But theology is deceptive. We find a view point that we like, then we find books and websites that entertain that view. And this is where you can get side tracked, because those sites, and books are not the Bible.

I believe this is part of the problem as to why you do not understand where I am coming from with the Bible. I believe Bible colleges teach you what THEY want you to see and hear.

Most of the knowledge I gained was not from some book, article, Pastor, church, college, etc.; My knowledge of God's Word primarily comes from reading and believing the Bible plainly in what it says and asking the Lord for the truth of it. I did not heavily rely upon any teacher or teachers to teach me what I know today. My teaching on Repentance is my own study with GOD. You can either address my points in Scripture on repentance so as to prove how my interpretation is wrong, or you can ignore them. The choice is yours.

As for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit: Again, your interpretation on Matthew 12:31-32 is not what the text says (or in any other place in the Bible). It is a belief that is inserted into the Bible, and is completely foreign to what Scripture says. Jesus was saying that anyone who speaks bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven. But he that speaks bad words (blasphemy) against the Son of Man can be forgiven. Most people have blasphemed the name of Jesus. This is forgivable. But most have not done so with the Spirit (Which is not forgivable). This is what it is saying plainly. Again, if you disagree, we can discuss what the text actually says at face value.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32).

Context:

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).

Jesus is saying you can be condemned by your own words.

"And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell." (James 3:6).

Also, ask yourself: what does the "world to come" refer to in Matthew 12:32?

"but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matthew 12:32).​

The "world to come" is referring to the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
If a believer were to speak bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost in the Millennium, they will never be forgiven of such a thing. That is what it is saying.

But in the Sola Fide camp, it is like some kind of mystery or something and it has no real workable meaning that is consistent with the immediate context or the rest of the Bible.

 

[createdtoworship]

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32).

Context:

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).

Jesus is saying you can be condemned by your own words.

"And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell." (James 3:6).

Also, ask yourself: what does the "world to come" refer to in Matthew 12:32?

"but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matthew 12:32).​

The "world to come" is referring to the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
If a believer were to speak bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost in the Millennium, they will never be forgiven of such a thing. That is what it is saying.

But in the Sola Fide camp, it is like some kind of mystery or something and it has no real workable meaning that is consistent with the immediate context or the rest of the Bible.

Sir, what on earth would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Why even mention it? I mean you honestly think cursing out the Holy Spirit is what people do? Never heard of such a thing. But I have heard of people rejecting Christ, and since it is a trinity, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit too. By the way my view of apostacy came from years of research, the teacher of Bible college class actually taught herbrews 6 was hypothetical not literal. I never believed there would be hypotheticals in scripture. By the way what church do you go to?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sir, what on earth would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Why even mention it? I mean you honestly think cursing out the Holy Spirit is what people do? Never heard of such a thing. But I have heard of people rejecting Christ, and since it is a trinity, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit too. By the way my view of apostacy came from years of research, the teacher of Bible college class actually taught herbrews 6 was hypothetical not literal. I never believed there would be hypotheticals in scripture. By the way what church do you go to?

While blasphemy can refer to a wrong action, at the heart, the word "blasphemy" in the Bible talks about blasphemy as cursing God's name. That is what blasphemy actually means. Here is an example in the New Testament:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).​

Dictionary.com says,

Blasphemy:

1. an act of cursing or reviling God.

Source:
Definition of blasphemy | Dictionary.com

I also showed you the context, as well.

Matthew 12:37 says you can be condemned by your words. That is the context of Matthew 12:31-32. Speaking bad words. Not sure how you can make this passage say something else.

Matthew 12:31-32 says,

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."​

Verse 31 says "blasphemy."
Verse 32 says "speaks a word against" and "speaketh against."

This is the context.
The context here is not as you suggest.

Furthermore, if blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is as you say, then what in the world does "speaketh a word against" [i.e. blasphemy of] the Son even mean? You can speak a word.... *cough* a word against the Son of Man and it can be forgiven you, but it will not be forgiven if you do so against the Holy Spirit. That is why your interpretation on this passage is illogical. It is no way fits what the text actually says plainly. It ignores the rules of our understanding on basic English. Matthew 12:31-32 does not say what you think it means (not even in the slightest sense). You are simply not reading the Bible here, dear sir. You are enforcing a belief upon Matthew 12:31-32 (When that belief does not even remotely say that). Your belief on Matthew 12:31-32 is sort of like somebody saying that:
"...a dog jumps over the fence" means: "a cat got caught up in a tree."

As for people actually committing the unforgivable sin: I heard from another Christian that some unbelievers had committed this sin; But I cannot testify to myself whether they have done this or not. But I do not need to see it to believe it. I walk by faith (in God's Word), and not by sight.

As for a general curse of God: Usually a reference to God without any specific mention to the Son, etc. means it is referring to the Father. A general curse of God would be forgivable because of this. But to curse the Trinity? Yeah, only God knows about that. All I know is that you cannot curse or swear against the Holy Spirit because it is an unforgivable sin. Why? Because it is what the Bible plainly says.

As for your many years of study: I am not impressed. There are many who study God's Word their whole lives from the lens of their church, personal beliefs, denomination, etc. and they will never see the truth on certain passages because they prefer to see something that fits either their personal life style or their own strange personality or impression of how they want to view God. It does not mean they are right on everything that they believe in the Bible.

The truth of God's Word is taught via by the Holy Spirit, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Believers also cannot justify sin and or evil on any level and expect God to agree with them, either. For God cannot agree with sin because He is holy and righteous. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So one has to teach righteousness as taught in the Bible properly to truly have the knowldege of God's Word correctly.

As for Hebrews 6: Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the most clearest passage in the Bible, but that is a topic for another thread. But for quick reference, apostasy is the topic of discussion based on Hebrews 3:12.

You asked what church I go to:

Well, my Soteriology is similar to that of Christ's Sanctified Holy Church.

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

They are a church that exists on the Eastern seaboard. Lord willing: I would like to fly this year to visit them. For they are the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that believes "God's Grace + Works of Faith = Salvation."

But am I affiliated with a church organization? Well, I believe we are living in the last days, and to find believers who are truly following Jesus and or at least desiring to follow Jesus is hard to find these days. Most are out to serve themselves and not the Lord. So if there was a group nearby where I lived that believed as I do, and they strived to follow Jesus according to the commands given to us in the New Testament, I would be a part of them. But like I said. We are living in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about those who have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. The love of many will wax cold. We are reaching that time now. Men. Christian men are justify evil and wrong doing in Christ's name. This is not how things ought to be. But the Lord my God is a just and fair God, and evil will be punished. He will judge the secrets of men's hearts. Nobody will get away with anything or any kind of sin. The Lord my God is just and good.

Also, have you greeted anyone with an holy kiss before?
I say this because it relates to this last topic you brought up here in reference to church affiliation or felllowship.

Anyways, if you do not get what I am saying, and you are still in disagreement with me, I think it is best to move on. I cannot force you to see what the Bible says. Only God can open your eyes to the truth of the Scriptures that I am trying to show to you, dear sir.

May God's goodness be upon you, and may you please be well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sir, what on earth would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Why even mention it? I mean you honestly think cursing out the Holy Spirit is what people do? Never heard of such a thing. But I have heard of people rejecting Christ, and since it is a trinity, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit too. By the way my view of apostacy came from years of research, the teacher of Bible college class actually taught herbrews 6 was hypothetical not literal. I never believed there would be hypotheticals in scripture. By the way what church do you go to?

I believe we are living in a generation or time that is indifferent to what the Bible says.

Here is a trailer to a Christian movie I had seen (that is showing currently in limited theaters) that helps to express what I am talking about.

Not many today are really following Jesus. But the Lord can transform hearts and lives by the power of His Word. They have to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) and dedicate their lives to following Christ. Many Christians I have talked with over the years want the easy and smooth wide gate path and they are out to justify grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) on some level.

 

[createdtoworship]

While blasphemy can refer to a wrong action, at the heart, the word "blasphemy" in the Bible talks about blasphemy as cursing God's name. That is what blasphemy actually means. Here is an example in the New Testament:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).​

Dictionary.com says,

Blasphemy:

1. an act of cursing or reviling God.

Source:
Definition of blasphemy | Dictionary.com

I also showed you the context, as well.

Matthew 12:37 says you can be condemned by your words. That is the context of Matthew 12:31-32. Speaking bad words. Not sure how you can make this passage say something else.

Matthew 12:31-32 says,

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."​

Verse 31 says "blasphemy."
Verse 32 says "speaks a word against" and "speaketh against."

This is the context.
The context here is not as you suggest.

Furthermore, if blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is as you say, then what in the world does "speaketh a word against" [i.e. blasphemy of] the Son even mean? You can speak a word.... *cough* a word against the Son of Man and it can be forgiven you, but it will not be forgiven if you do so against the Holy Spirit. That is why your interpretation on this passage is illogical. It is no way fits what the text actually says plainly. It ignores the rules of our understanding on basic English. Matthew 12:31-32 does not say what you think it means (not even in the slightest sense). You are simply not reading the Bible here, dear sir. You are enforcing a belief upon Matthew 12:31-32 (When that belief does not even remotely say that). Your belief on Matthew 12:31-32 is sort of like somebody saying that:
"...a dog jumps over the fence" means: "a cat got caught up in a tree."

As for people actually committing the unforgivable sin: I heard from another Christian that some unbelievers had committed this sin; But I cannot testify to myself whether they have done this or not. But I do not need to see it to believe it. I walk by faith (in God's Word), and not by sight.

As for a general curse of God: Usually a reference to God without any specific mention to the Son, etc. means it is referring to the Father. A general curse of God would be forgivable because of this. But to curse the Trinity? Yeah, only God knows about that. All I know is that you cannot curse or swear against the Holy Spirit because it is an unforgivable sin. Why? Because it is what the Bible plainly says.

As for your many years of study: I am not impressed. There are many who study God's Word their whole lives from the lens of their church, personal beliefs, denomination, etc. and they will never see the truth on certain passages because they prefer to see something that fits either their personal life style or their own strange personality or impression of how they want to view God. It does not mean they are right on everything that they believe in the Bible.

The truth of God's Word is taught via by the Holy Spirit, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Believers also cannot justify sin and or evil on any level and expect God to agree with them, either. For God cannot agree with sin because He is holy and righteous. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So one has to teach righteousness as taught in the Bible properly to truly have the knowldege of God's Word correctly.

As for Hebrews 6: Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the most clearest passage in the Bible, but that is a topic for another thread. But for quick reference, apostasy is the topic of discussion based on Hebrews 3:12.

You asked what church I go to:

Well, my Soteriology is similar to that of Christ's Sanctified Holy Church.

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

They are a church that exists on the Eastern seaboard. Lord willing: I would like to fly this year to visit them. For they are the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that believes "God's Grace + Works of Faith = Salvation."

But am I affiliated with a church organization? Well, I believe we are living in the last days, and to find believers who are truly following Jesus and or at least desiring to follow Jesus is hard to find these days. Most are out to serve themselves and not the Lord. So if there was a group nearby where I lived that believed as I do, and they strived to follow Jesus according to the commands given to us in the New Testament, I would be a part of them. But like I said. We are living in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about those who have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. The love of many will wax cold. We are reaching that time now. Men. Christian men are justify evil and wrong doing in Christ's name. This is not how things ought to be. But the Lord my God is a just and fair God, and evil will be punished. He will judge the secrets of men's hearts. Nobody will get away with anything or any kind of sin. The Lord my God is just and good.

Also, have you greeted anyone with an holy kiss before?
I say this because it relates to this last topic you brought up here in reference to church affiliation or felllowship.

Anyways, if you do not get what I am saying, and you are still in disagreement with me, I think it is best to move on. I cannot force you to see what the Bible says. Only God can open your eyes to the truth of the Scriptures that I am trying to show to you, dear sir.

May God's goodness be upon you, and may you please be well.

I believe we are living in a generation or time that is indifferent to what the Bible says.

Here is a trailer to a Christian movie I had seen (that is showing currently in limited theaters) that helps to express what I am talking about.

Not many today are really following Jesus. But the Lord can transform hearts and lives by the power of His Word. They have to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) and dedicate their lives to following Christ. Many Christians I have talked with over the years want the easy and smooth wide gate path and they are out to justify grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) on some level.

so you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.


Lastly, let me remind you. If it is a new teaching, it's not true, and if it's true, it's not new.

the fact that you can only find one church in the USA that believes what you believe, should reveal to you that it is unorthodox and in error. When I was free grace, I only found one church that agreed with me. And it comes to pass that as I prayed that God revealed I was wrong. There should be many churches that believe. I am not special, you are not special. If you think God is showing special revelation to you, this should show you that you are in the error of pride and pride begets heresy.

Godbless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

so you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

I cannot provide any proof that Noah's ark existed, but yet I believe Scripture when it talks about that fact. We walk by faith and not by sight, dear sir.

Anyways, I see you are in disagreement with me still. Unfortunately I believe you hold to a view of Belief Alone-ism that is unacceptable for me to have a normal exchange with. I have a rule. No offense, but I strive not to continue to talk with certain types of Belief Alone proponents (Whereby I feel they violate a certain level of basic morality or the goodness of God). For me: There has to be some common ground of agreement on basic morality or God's goodness in order to be able to help them see the truth of God's Word.

 

[createdtoworship]

I cannot provide any proof that Noah's ark existed, but yet I believe Scripture when it talks about that fact. We walk by faith and not by sight, dear sir.

Anyways, I see you are in disagreement with me still. Unfortunately I believe you hold to a view of Belief Alone-ism that is unacceptable for me to have a normal exchange with. I have a rule. No offense, but I strive not to continue to talk with certain types of Belief Alone proponents (Whereby I feel they violate a certain level of basic morality or the goodness of God). For me: There has to be some common ground of agreement on basic morality or God's goodness in order to be able to help them see the truth of God's Word.

well your view is pretty much refuted so, I guess I am done to. By the way I am not faith alone. I believe in salvic repentance. But you refuse to acknowledge this because you want to justify your view of removing grace from scripture, and it's easier for you to justify ending a conversation with someone after you set up a straw man of their view, and misrepresented their view. I know you cannot reply to my refutation of your viewpoint logically speaking so you must go to "faith." But faith is never blind sir. Most historians believe Jesus existed and that scriptures were written by early christians. So our faith has facts attached to it. I can have faith that we all evolved from a mud swamp somewhere, but it is still just an excuse to hold contradiction in my mind. This is called in debate as "cognitive dissonance."

Cognitive Dissonance-

“This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.

namely that All sins are forgiven, even lack of faith. Which is universalism. So that directly contradicts your view. So much so that you had to revert to faith alone. Something you seem to not believe in salvation, but I guess it's ok to believe in this case. Because there is no evidence your view does not contradict.

Dissonance increases with:

1. The importance of the subject to us.
2. How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.
3. Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.”

Above quote from: http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm

I say repeatedly:,

1. "you have to be willing to be wrong."
2. "you have to be willing to change."
3. "if you can't do the above then debate is not for you"

And I exhort myself, we all have preconceived ideas of what truth is, but many times it is simply clouded with self interest.

you desire to be a lone ranger and believe that God has granted sole revelation to you and no one else. This is one of the first signs of a cult. That God only reveals certain things to a particular individual or organization. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses also have blind faith in their prophets that God gave them sole revelation (things that were not known in the church until then). The fact that you cannot quote any founding church fathers that believed in works salvation, shows that your view is a new view, and or was considered heresy even back then. I suggest praying and asking God that if your view is wrong to give you a sign. I pray all the time for God's will. I set out fleeces for God all day long. I ask Him to reveal His will for me by certain things happening. If it's a cloudy day, let this be your will, if it's 90 degrees tomorrow, let this be your will. If God truly wants you to believe in your theology, ask Him if I am correct or you are. IF you doubt what He said, do another test, sometimes I do it three times just to make sure I heard Him correctly. That is the only way someone who is self deceived and believes by faith they are correct can see that they are not correct.

also I will say a prayer for you when I get done posting this.

And to be fair I will also do that same, I will ask God for signs that I am correct, and update you. I just prayed and asked God to show me a sign if I was correct let the minute chart of the sp500 (spx) fund be on an uptick, and if I was not correct for it to be on a down tick. It was going up the last three minutes, I will post a shot.

View attachment 259238

I know that the last minute was flat, but the screen shot was too early, it was actually up quite a bit.

now it's your turn, pray to God and ask Him if you are correct, or if my view is correct.

 

[createdtoworship]

I cannot provide any proof that Noah's ark existed, but yet I believe Scripture when it talks about that fact. We walk by faith and not by sight, dear sir.

Anyways, I see you are in disagreement with me still. Unfortunately I believe you hold to a view of Belief Alone-ism that is unacceptable for me to have a normal exchange with. I have a rule. No offense, but I strive not to continue to talk with certain types of Belief Alone proponents (Whereby I feel they violate a certain level of basic morality or the goodness of God). For me: There has to be some common ground of agreement on basic morality or God's goodness in order to be able to help them see the truth of God's Word.

by the way there is some testimony of wood being found high up on ararat, where no trees existed because it was above the tree line. So I guess there is evidence of noah's ark.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

by the way there is some testimony of wood being found high up on ararat, where no trees existed because it was above the tree line. So I guess there is evidence of noah's ark.

But we must believe the testimony of that person. It still requires faith to believe their testimony is true. I tend to be more on the skeptical side when it comes to certain claims that have not been authenticated in such a way that I can see it in some way myself (like footage, clear photos, other eye witnesses, etc.).

Here is a Blogger article I created of some evidences for God's Word that I find to be more convincing:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well your view is pretty much refuted so, I guess I am done to. By the way I am not faith alone. I believe in salvic repentance. But you refuse to acknowledge this because you want to justify your view of removing grace from scripture, and it's easier for you to justify ending a conversation with someone after you set up a straw man of their view, and misrepresented their view. I know you cannot reply to my refutation of your viewpoint logically speaking so you must go to "faith." But faith is never blind sir. Most historians believe Jesus existed and that scriptures were written by early christians. So our faith has facts attached to it. I can have faith that we all evolved from a mud swamp somewhere, but it is still just an excuse to hold contradiction in my mind. This is called in debate as "cognitive dissonance."

Cognitive Dissonance-

“This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.

namely that All sins are forgiven, even lack of faith. Which is universalism. So that directly contradicts your view. So much so that you had to revert to faith alone. Something you seem to not believe in salvation, but I guess it's ok to believe in this case. Because there is no evidence your view does not contradict.

Dissonance increases with:

1. The importance of the subject to us.
2. How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.
3. Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.”

Above quote from: http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm

I say repeatedly:,

1. "you have to be willing to be wrong."
2. "you have to be willing to change."
3. "if you can't do the above then debate is not for you"

And I exhort myself, we all have preconceived ideas of what truth is, but many times it is simply clouded with self interest.

you desire to be a lone ranger and believe that God has granted sole revelation to you and no one else. This is one of the first signs of a cult. That God only reveals certain things to a particular individual or organization. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses also have blind faith in their prophets that God gave them sole revelation (things that were not known in the church until then). The fact that you cannot quote any founding church fathers that believed in works salvation, shows that your view is a new view, and or was considered heresy even back then. I suggest praying and asking God that if your view is wrong to give you a sign. I pray all the time for God's will. I set out fleeces for God all day long. I ask Him to reveal His will for me by certain things happening. If it's a cloudy day, let this be your will, if it's 90 degrees tomorrow, let this be your will. If God truly wants you to believe in your theology, ask Him if I am correct or you are. IF you doubt what He said, do another test, sometimes I do it three times just to make sure I heard Him correctly. That is the only way someone who is self deceived and believes by faith they are correct can see that they are not correct.

also I will say a prayer for you when I get done posting this.

And to be fair I will also do that same, I will ask God for signs that I am correct, and update you. I just prayed and asked God to show me a sign if I was correct let the minute chart of the sp500 (spx) fund be on an uptick, and if I was not correct for it to be on a down tick. It was going up the last three minutes, I will post a shot.

View attachment 259238

I know that the last minute was flat, but the screen shot was too early, it was actually up quite a bit.

now it's your turn, pray to God and ask Him if you are correct, or if my view is correct.

You are a rare breed if you don't believe in Sola Fide (or Faith Alone), i.e. Belief Alone-ism and yet you believe that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level.

But your view is in the majority when it comes to Hamartiology and Soteriology. Most today believe you can sin and still be saved on some level. That is the majority view (Whether somebody is Belief Alone-ism, OSAS, or your rare camp that I have never heard before until today).

The heart of the problem is a person believing they can abide in a grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and still be saved. Such a belief is foreign to Scripture. Then again, a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that such a thing is wrong. Basic morality should of course tell them this. But I know why they ignore such a thing.

As for praying: Jesus says we are to close our door and pray. Jesus condemned the idea of trying to be seen publicly praying (See: Matthew 6:5-6).

As for the photo: I did not see it.

I had problems before uploading images to Christian Forums; So I understand.

The solution is to:

#1. Go to Christian Forums main page.
#2. Click on the Media button.
#3. Click on the Add Media button.
#4. Choose from drop down box to "Create Album" and name it.
#5. Click upload image.
#6. Click the Save button.
#7. Select the Image to View it in your Media Gallery.
#8. Right Click on the Image you want to use.
#9. Select the Option called "Copy Image Address."
#10. Go back to the thread you want to a post a picture at.
#11. Select the picture icon (Next to the video icon).
#12. Paste the image link in the pop up window and voila!

Side Note:

There is one believer who holds to the view that we are saved by a belief and works, and yet they do not think one grievous sin alone can separate us from God. His name is David Servant. I liked his videos until I found out that he was justifying the idea that we can be saved while abiding in grievous sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well your view is pretty much refuted so, I guess I am done to. By the way I am not faith alone. I believe in salvic repentance. But you refuse to acknowledge this because you want to justify your view of removing grace from scripture, and it's easier for you to justify ending a conversation with someone after you set up a straw man of their view, and misrepresented their view. I know you cannot reply to my refutation of your viewpoint logically speaking so you must go to "faith." But faith is never blind sir. Most historians believe Jesus existed and that scriptures were written by early christians. So our faith has facts attached to it. I can have faith that we all evolved from a mud swamp somewhere, but it is still just an excuse to hold contradiction in my mind. This is called in debate as "cognitive dissonance."

Cognitive Dissonance-

“This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.

namely that All sins are forgiven, even lack of faith. Which is universalism. So that directly contradicts your view. So much so that you had to revert to faith alone. Something you seem to not believe in salvation, but I guess it's ok to believe in this case. Because there is no evidence your view does not contradict.

Dissonance increases with:

1. The importance of the subject to us.
2. How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.
3. Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.”

Above quote from: Cognitive Dissonance

I say repeatedly:,

1. "you have to be willing to be wrong."
2. "you have to be willing to change."
3. "if you can't do the above then debate is not for you"

And I exhort myself, we all have preconceived ideas of what truth is, but many times it is simply clouded with self interest.

you desire to be a lone ranger and believe that God has granted sole revelation to you and no one else. This is one of the first signs of a cult. That God only reveals certain things to a particular individual or organization. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses also have blind faith in their prophets that God gave them sole revelation (things that were not known in the church until then). The fact that you cannot quote any founding church fathers that believed in works salvation, shows that your view is a new view, and or was considered heresy even back then. I suggest praying and asking God that if your view is wrong to give you a sign. I pray all the time for God's will. I set out fleeces for God all day long. I ask Him to reveal His will for me by certain things happening. If it's a cloudy day, let this be your will, if it's 90 degrees tomorrow, let this be your will. If God truly wants you to believe in your theology, ask Him if I am correct or you are. IF you doubt what He said, do another test, sometimes I do it three times just to make sure I heard Him correctly. That is the only way someone who is self deceived and believes by faith they are correct can see that they are not correct.

also I will say a prayer for you when I get done posting this.

And to be fair I will also do that same, I will ask God for signs that I am correct, and update you. I just prayed and asked God to show me a sign if I was correct let the minute chart of the sp500 (spx) fund be on an uptick, and if I was not correct for it to be on a down tick. It was going up the last three minutes, I will post a shot.

View attachment 259238

I know that the last minute was flat, but the screen shot was too early, it was actually up quite a bit.

now it's your turn, pray to God and ask Him if you are correct, or if my view is correct.

You really did not refute anything that I have stated with Scripture. You merely expressed your opinions on Scripture with little to no Scriptural support.

Again, if your future sins are paid for, why do you have to confess of your sins to be forgiven? Think.

 

[createdtoworship]

But we must believe the testimony of that person. It still requires faith to believe their testimony is true. I tend to be more on the skeptical side when it comes to certain claims that have not been authenticated in such a way that I can see it in some way myself (like footage, clear photos, other eye witnesses, etc.).

Here is a Blogger article I created of some evidences for God's Word that I find to be more convincing:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

that guy chuck missler (you have on your site), goes to my church. He is up in idaho I believe. He came out of calvary chapel costa mesa. I go to calvary chapel too. He just wrote a new book about the millenium and for sure does not agree with your views.

thanks for the link I will check it out.

 

[createdtoworship]

You really did not refute anything that I have stated with Scripture. You merely expressed your opinions on Scripture with little to no Scriptural support.

Again, if your future sins are paid for, why do you have to confess of your sins to be forgiven? Think.

I don't have to confess my sins to be forgiven. It's talking about restoring fellowship with God and man, it says to confess one to another. Why would you confess one to another, if it's God forgiving?

so that is a second refutation.

I can repeat my entire premise defeating your self contradictory views, if you want.

should I proceed?

 

[createdtoworship]

You are a rare breed if you don't believe in Sola Fide (or Faith Alone), i.e. Belief Alone-ism and yet you believe that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level.

But your view is in the majority when it comes to Hamartiology and Soteriology. Most today believe you can sin and still be saved on some level. That is the majority view (Whether somebody is Belief Alone-ism, OSAS, or your rare camp that I have never heard before until today).

The heart of the problem is a person believing they can abide in a grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and still be saved. Such a belief is foreign to Scripture. Then again, a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that such a thing is wrong. Basic morality should of course tell them this. But I know why they ignore such a thing.

As for praying: Jesus says we are to close our door and pray. Jesus condemned the idea of trying to be seen publicly praying (See: Matthew 6:5-6).

As for the photo: I did not see it.

I had problems before uploading images to Christian Forums; So I understand.

The solution is to:

#1. Go to Christian Forums main page.
#2. Click on the Media button.
#3. Click on the Add Media button.
#4. Choose from drop down box to "Create Album" and name it.
#5. Click upload image.
#6. Click the Save button.
#7. Select the Image to View it in your Media Gallery.
#8. Right Click on the Image you want to use.
#9. Select the Option called "Copy Image Address."
#10. Go back to the thread you want to a post a picture at.
#11. Select the picture icon (Next to the video icon).
#12. Paste the image link in the pop up window and voila!

Side Note:

There is one believer who holds to the view that we are saved by a belief and works, and yet they do not think one grievous sin alone can separate us from God. His name is David Servant. I liked his videos until I found out that he was justifying the idea that we can be saved while abiding in grievous sin.

so did you pray and ask God if you are correct? I did pray and I asked God if I was correct or you were correct. I put my money where my mouth was, if I was wrong I would have changed views and reinvestigated it. But seeing I am the only one praying for God direct guidance on this, I feel you are afraid that God would tell you something you didn't want to hear.

again, pray for it.

see if God validates your theology.

if you don't trust the same God who created you to answer that basic question, then I don't know what to do for you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

so did you pray and ask God if you are correct? I did pray and I asked God if I was correct or you were correct. I put my money where my mouth was, if I was wrong I would have changed views and reinvestigated it. But seeing I am the only one praying for God direct guidance on this, I feel you are afraid that God would tell you something you didn't want to hear.

again, pray for it.

see if God validates your theology.

if you don't trust the same God who created you to answer that basic question, then I don't know what to do for you.

I have prayed before many times on the truth of what Scripture says. I have prayed over whether or not works is the second step or stage in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace before several times. But prayer alone is not the determination of truth of God's Word, dear sir. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so or not. We have to compare Scripture with Scripture to determine the truth, as well. The Bible has to breath as a cohesive whole. We also have to go with the most plainest meaning of what the Bible says (Unless there is something in the context or by some other cross reference that says otherwise). The Bible also does not violate basic morality or the goodness of God. So if a person does not comprehend or understand that their belief is violating basic morality, they can pray until the cows come home and still not understand that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12). What disturbs me is that many I talk with do not understand basic morality today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't have to confess my sins to be forgiven. It's talking about restoring fellowship with God and man, it says to confess one to another. Why would you confess one to another, if it's God forgiving?

so that is a second refutation.

I can repeat my entire premise defeating your self contradictory views, if you want.

should I proceed?

Have you ever read 1 John 1:9 before? I know it better than the back of my hand. 1 John 1:9 is about confessing your sins to Jesus. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. See 1 John 2:1. Again, if you confess your sins to Jesus, you will be forgiven of sin, and cleansed of all unrighteousness. This can be continual for a believer if they happen to stumble on rare occasion. It is not talking about a loss of fellowship with one being saved. If that was the case, then there would be no need to confess of sin or it would say, if we confess our sins, it will restore fellowship with Him. But 1 John 1:9 does not say that. It actually says sin is forgiven when we confess our sins to the Lord. For why else would Hebrews 4:16 say the following?

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16).

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. If one has mercy without confessing and forsaking sin, then why do we have to do those things so as to have mercy? It makes no sense.

Side Note:

Your opinion is not a refutation. You have to show how the plain meaning of Scripture fits your interpretation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

that guy chuck missler (you have on your site), goes to my church. He is up in idaho I believe. He came out of calvary chapel costa mesa. I go to calvary chapel too. He just wrote a new book about the millenium and for sure does not agree with your views.

thanks for the link I will check it out.

For a long while now I have known that both Chuck Missler and Mike Hoggard (Who are into biblical numerics) do not agree that "God's grace + Works of Faith = Salvation." After I studied Eschatology and Apologetics via by Chuck's videos online, I later learned he believed in Eternal Security, and I stopped watching his videos (like I used to). I will acknowledge that he has some good ones on Eschatology and Apologetics, but I strive to warn others that he believes in the dangerous doctrine of OSAS (Which I believe is highly unbiblical).

I remember one time Chuck saying about how there is some place in Heaven about where there will be those unprofitable servants who will be weeping and gnashing their teeth. I am sorry. I don't buy that excuse. It sounds absurd. This is when I stopped watching his videos (Which was a long time ago).

 

[createdtoworship]

I have prayed before many times on the truth of what Scripture says. I have prayed over whether or not works is the second step or stage in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace before several times. But prayer alone is not the determination of truth of God's Word, dear sir. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so or not. We have to compare Scripture with Scripture to determine the truth, as well. The Bible has to breath as a cohesive whole. We also have to go with the most plainest meaning of what the Bible says (Unless there is something in the context or by some other cross reference that says otherwise). The Bible also does not violate basic morality or the goodness of God. So if a person does not comprehend or understand that their belief is violating basic morality, they can pray until the cows come home and still not understand that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12). What disturbs me is that many I talk with do not understand basic morality today.

I already refuted your view of the blasphemy of the Holy spirit, I can repost it if you want. I just figured you should pray since your view is refuted.

If my views are refuted in an open forum, I take a second look at what I believe and ask God yet again, if that is what He wants me to believe.

I prayed four times yesterday for God to correct my view if it was wrong, He confirmed that my view was correct.

This view of prayer is called, "praying using a fleece" It is what gideon did in the old testament. Also the urim and the thumin in israel was a confirmation of God's will, also the could by day, and the pillar of fire by night. God directed Israel several ways. Since I have rededicated my life to the Lord since april God has blessed me tremendously, I have had victory over addictive sins, visions of heaven, visions of my future and what God will do withe me some day. God literally answers my prayers every day. I used to follow close to the Lord, then I was burned one time. I thought God called me back to Bible college and He slammed the door on that opportunity. God wanted to use me to teach a class in evangelism in a large non denominational church and reach thousands. But I didn't see that at the time. I have lots of stories I could tell. But anyway, I stopped praying expectantly after that point. And only recently have a started again and my life has changed positively for the better. I wish I never stopped. Sometimes God answers a wrong reply to a fleece, in order to test you. For example in the old testament israel consulted withe prophets if they should go up and fight against the enemy, and He said " you should go up/" But then they lost miserably and fled while being slaughtered by the enemy. Then they went back to the prophet and God said, "there is sin in the camp." And sometimes God says no because he has something better in mind. But sometimes He leads you to the slaughter, because of sin. Now I don't know your heart, only you do. But if there is persistent sin in your life, for example, lust, covetousness, pride, inappropriate contentography or whatever. God will lead you into a battle that you will lose. And it's not God doing it, it's your sin. God simply removes His protection from us, because we basically leave the shelter of His will, and travel into sin. So I don't know why God didn't answer your prayers the way He answered mine. All I can say is recommit to God in a fresh way, repent of all sin, not just the big sins, but all sin. Be open for God to reveal more and more sins of the heart that you didn't see. He will change your life I promise, and when you pray in this mindset the prayer is so much more powerful. The bible says that regarding prayer; "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" That means that your sin won't separate you from God's will anymore. And He can bless you abundantly and lead you out of works salvation doctrines. I hope this makes sense to you. Don't be afraid to pray. I noticed that you still didn't want to pray today for this particular situation, I am pretty sure you never asked God if what I was telling you was accurate or not. If I am wrong, God please show me. But I know that you answered my prayer today when I asked for confirmation of Your will in this matter, I pray you also show my friend here. I believe He has a desire to follow you, help Him recommit His life today to your will, repent of any sin in his life, lust, covetousness, inappropriate contentography, looking at girls on social media, whatever. If you have a veil over His eyes because of a various sin, show him Lord. You are Lord of all, I pray He has victory, and in doing so, that prayer will become alive again to him. And that you can show Him the truth regarding this veil you had over his eyes all this time. Thank you for hearing me,

in Christs name, amen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already refuted your view of the blasphemy of the Holy spirit, I can repost it if you want. I just figured you should pray since your view is refuted.

I must have missed the post. I did not see you disproving the points I made on Matthew 12:31-32. The context is Matthew 12:37 that says we can be condemned by our words. You did not disprove that to my knowledge. You also did not explain what the speaking a word against the Son of Man means. You did not explain what "the world to come" means in reference to speaking a word against the Holy Ghost. What is the world to come in your view? Do you think there will be unbelievers committing the unforgivable sin in the Millennium with Christ reigning?

I prayed four times yesterday for God to correct my view if it was wrong, He confirmed that my view was correct.

Mormons pray for a burning in the belly to confirm what thy desire to be true, it doesn't mean they are correct by this method. Prayer alone is not the foundation of our faith. People can have false visions of Jesus, etc. So I would say that you need to prove your case with the Bible and not just prayer alone. When God answers my prayer sometimes, it is in the form of Scripture.

This view of prayer is called, "praying using a fleece" It is what gideon did in the old testament. Also the urim and the thumin in israel was a confirmation of God's will, also the could by day, and the pillar of fire by night. God directed Israel several ways. Since I have rededicated my life to the Lord since april God has blessed me tremendously, I have had victory over addictive sins, visions of heaven, visions of my future and what God will do withe me some day. God literally answers my prayers every day. I used to follow close to the Lord, then I was burned one time. I thought God called me back to Bible college and He slammed the door on that opportunity. God wanted to use me to teach a class in evangelism in a large non denominational church and reach thousands. But I didn't see that at the time. I have lots of stories I could tell.

Your life experience is not above what God's Word says.

Anyways, I have come to learn that believers must believe the Bible at face value (instead of trying to insert beliefs that are not there into it). Believers also cannot justifying sin and evil on any level. Job 28:28 says that to forsake evil is understanding. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

But anyway, I stopped praying expectantly after that point. And only recently have a started again and my life has changed positively for the better. I wish I never stopped. Sometimes God answers a wrong reply to a fleece, in order to test you. For example in the old testament israel consulted withe prophets if they should go up and fight against the enemy, and He said " you should go up/" But then they lost miserably and fled while being slaughtered by the enemy. Then they went back to the prophet and God said, "there is sin in the camp." And sometimes God says no because he has something better in mind. But sometimes He leads you to the slaughter, because of sin. Now I don't know your heart, only you do. But if there is persistent sin in your life, for example, lust, covetousness, pride, inappropriate contentography or whatever. God will lead you into a battle that you will lose. And it's not God doing it, it's your sin. God simply removes His protection from us, because we basically leave the shelter of His will, and travel into sin. So I don't know why God didn't answer your prayers the way He answered mine. All I can say is recommit to God in a fresh way, repent of all sin, not just the big sins, but all sin. Be open for God to reveal more and more sins of the heart that you didn't see. He will change your life I promise, and when you pray in this mindset the prayer is so much more powerful. The bible says that regarding prayer; "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" That means that your sin won't separate you from God's will anymore. And He can bless you abundantly and lead you out of works salvation doctrines. I hope this makes sense to you. Don't be afraid to pray. I noticed that you still didn't want to pray today for this particular situation, I am pretty sure you never asked God if what I was telling you was accurate or not. If I am wrong, God please show me. But I know that you answered my prayer today when I asked for confirmation of Your will in this matter, I pray you also show my friend here. I believe He has a desire to follow you, help Him recommit His life today to your will, repent of any sin in his life, lust, covetousness, inappropriate contentography, looking at girls on social media, whatever. If you have a veil over His eyes because of a various sin, show him Lord. You are Lord of all, I pray He has victory, and in doing so, that prayer will become alive again to him. And that you can show Him the truth regarding this veil you had over his eyes all this time. Thank you for hearing me,

in Christs name, amen.

If one is saved while abiding in grievous sin, then it does not really matter if we overcome grievous sin. Maybe I misunderstood you, but by what you said so far, it leads me to believe that a Christian can live carnal on some small level and they can still be saved. If such is the case, then why bother to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling? That is why I have a hard time believing anything that you say, dear sir. If one does not believe how sin can cause a loss of salvation as per Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8, there is not much I can do to convince them otherwise (unless God talks to their heart about it). But what scares me is that some will never want to hear what God wants to say to them about living holy the correct way.

May God's love and peace be upon you and your family.