Can you lose your salvation?

[MDC]

What about our having a God-given free will
don't you like?

For me, it is obvious ...
NO free will to choose salvation,
but lots of free will AFTER salvation!

Sorry to hear that you're a robot with no free will.
Because I actually taught I wuz talkin' to a real person.
Oh well, deceived again!

We have a will but not free as you see it. Sorry to tell you but God is Sovereign, not you! The pride in man in his sinful condition cannot submit to this truth

 

[MDC]

You conveniently ignore the verse which states work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You ignore the verse that states those who practice righteousness are righteous. You ignore the verse that states we are justified by works and not by faith alone. You ignore that in Revelation, Jesus judges those in the 7 churches by their works, or lack thereof. There is much that you ignore.

I don’t ignore them. You just think I do because I reject your works based theology of man. Gods elect will take heed to those encouragements and warnings. It’s in our nature to do so by Gods Spirit and power. And it is to expose the tares among us.. by calling them to repentance

 

[BCsenior]

We have a will but not free as you see it. Sorry to tell you but God is Sovereign, not you! The pride in man in his sinful condition cannot submit to this truth

This is man's logic, and it's not Scriptural.
There are dozens of NT warning verses
about believers choosing to fall away from the faith,
fall from grace, draw back to perdition, etc.

 

[Oldmantook]

I don’t ignore them. You just think I do because I reject your works based theology of man. Gods elect will take heed to those encouragements and warnings. It’s in our nature to do so by Gods Spirit and power. And it is to expose the tares among us.. by calling them to repentance

If you don't ignore them, then why not just offer your explanation of how they do not contradict with what you believe? Your doctrine must be based on the whole of Scripture - not just those verses which you happen to believe align themselves with your view. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[MDC]

This is man's logic, and it's not Scriptural.
There are dozens of NT warning verses
about believers choosing to fall away from the faith,
fall from grace, draw back to perdition, etc.

There’s no Christ nor faith in this message you bring. Mans logic interprets it this way simply because men in their sinful state are blind to the wretched sin

 

[MDC]

If you don't ignore them, then why not just offer your explanation of how they do not contradict with what you believe? Your doctrine must be based on the whole of Scripture - not just those verses which you happen to believe align themselves with your view. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Then quit putting contradictions in. Eternal life rest with Christ and His merits by Gods Sovereign grace. This should be your foundation by which you interpret those scriptures. Instead of turning those scriptures on their head and forcing them to mean something completely opposite of the truth. Your message denies the gospel

 

[BCsenior]

Eternal life rest with Christ and His merits by Gods Sovereign grace. This should be your foundation by which you interpret those scriptures. Instead of turning those scriptures on their head and forcing them to mean something completely opposite of the truth. Your message denies the gospel

Just for example, there is a very clear verse in the NT:
If you practice righteousness, you are righteous!
Now, do you need to be considered righteous
in the eyes of God to be in a saved state?
Perhaps, you will say, "NO!".

 

[Oldmantook]

Then quit putting contradictions in. Eternal life rest with Christ and His merits by Gods Sovereign grace. This should be your foundation by which you interpret those scriptures. Instead of turning those scriptures on their head and forcing them to mean something completely opposite of the truth. Your message denies the gospel

Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13 does not contradict the gospel. You have failed to explain this verse and instead substitute your own opinion. Shall I wait any longer for your explanation of this verse?

 

[MDC]

Just for example, there is a very clear verse in the NT:
If you practice righteousness, you are righteous!
Now, do you need to be considered righteous
in the eyes of God to be in a saved state?
Perhaps, you will say, "NO!".

One is only considered righteous for the sake of Christ and His righteousness alone.. not your own. The elect live by faith. Justification comes in Christ alone. So you tell me, how are you righteous in Gods eyes by your self righteous works?

 

[MDC]

Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13 does not contradict the gospel. You have failed to explain this verse and instead substitute your own opinion. Shall I wait any longer for your explanation of this verse?

Those who are saved live by the Spirit. This is the natural result for the elect whom God saves in Christ. Like I said your foundation is centered around mans works of obedience for meriting salvation which carries with it a false conclusion on scriptures like these

 

[BCsenior]

So you tell me, how are you righteous in Gods eyes by your self righteous works?

Just simply because the NT says so!
At the moment we receive the Holy Spirit inside,
we are declared a whole lot of things:
justified, righteous, sanctified (set apart), etc.
But, the NT says we must continue on with this
new state of affairs, i.e. we must co-operate with the
Holy Spirit during the further process of sanctification
unto holiness.
For example, Romans 6:19 says:
"so now present your (body) members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness."
I.E. If you choose to be slaves of righteousness
you will end up in a state of holiness.
"And without holiness no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14)

 

[ToBeLoved]

You conveniently ignore the verse which states work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You ignore the verse that states those who practice righteousness are righteous. You ignore the verse that states we are justified by works and not by faith alone. You ignore that in Revelation, Jesus judges those in the 7 churches by their works, or lack thereof. There is much that you ignore.

If you look at the Greek for the word “fear” translated in that verse, it can also mean reverence.

I believe the better translation is reverence.

 

[MDC]

Just simply because the NT says so!
At the moment we receive the Holy Spirit inside,
we are declared a whole lot of things:
justified, righteous, sanctified (set apart), etc.
But, the NT says we must continue on with this
new state of affairs, i.e. we must co-operate with the
Holy Spirit during the further process of sanctification
unto holiness.
For example, Romans 6:19 says:
"so now present your (body) members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness."
I.E. If you choose to be slaves of righteousness
you will end up in a state of holiness.
"And without holiness no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14)

By the obedience of ONE many shall be made righteous. Romans 5:19. Declared righteousness only for the sake of Christ and His righteousness. Why must you insist in elevating yourself and your self righteousness? Why can’t you give all the glory to Christ? Where do you get the idea that the elect live a habitual life of sin in the flesh. This is not the fruit of a saved sinner. The save live by faith in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh. Obedience and the difference in what follows the faithful elect and what follows the self righteous is this, the faithful look to Christ as their foundation for justification before God. But the self righteous look to their own self righteous deeds as their foundation for justification before God. Your message is the latter.

 

[Oldmantook]

Those who are saved live by the Spirit. This is the natural result for the elect whom God saves in Christ. Like I said your foundation is centered around mans works of obedience for meriting salvation which carries with it a false conclusion on scriptures like these

You totally disregard that little teeny word - IF. Paul plainly stated: IF you live according to the flesh - YOU WILL DIE. If you knew anything about the Koine Greek, you would know that Rom 8:13 is a Greek 1st class conditional sentence. The "if" you live according to the flesh clause, known as the protasis is assumed to be TRUE for the sake of argument. The apodasis "you will die" is the consequence. This 1st class conditional clause in the Greek is indicative of a cause-effect relationship. If you (brethren) are living according to the flesh [cause], (then) you will die [effect]. If the protasis is true, then the apodasis is also true. In order to hold on to your belief, you have to ignore Scripture and the Greek language.

 

[Oldmantook]

If you look at the Greek for the word “fear” translated in that verse, it can also mean reverence.

I believe the better translation is reverence.

That is fine, as to revere God is to obey him. To disobey is to be irreverent. Obedience is a choice that all believers choose to make. Some do; some don't with the resulting consequences thereof.

 

[MDC]

You totally disregard that little teeny word - IF. Paul plainly stated: IF you live according to the flesh - YOU WILL DIE. If you knew anything about the Koine Greek, you would know that Rom 8:13 is a Greek 1st class conditional sentence. The "if" you live according to the flesh clause, known as the protasis is assumed to be TRUE for the sake of argument. The apodasis "you will die" is the consequence. This 1st class conditional clause in the Greek is indicative of a cause-effect relationship. If you (brethren) are living according to the flesh [cause], (then) you will die [effect]. If the protasis is true, then the apodasis is also true. In order to hold on to your belief, you have to ignore Scripture and the Greek language.

So all you are saying is that if man doesn’t live holy he will die and perish? A message of self righteous works salvation! All ungodly sinners live unholy. Apart from Christ and His righteousness all ungodly sinners will die in their sin. You have a Christless message with no hope for the sinner. Judaizers were this way as well

 

[Oldmantook]

So all you are saying is that if man doesn’t live holy he will die and perish? A message of self righteous works salvation! All ungodly sinners live unholy. Apart from Christ and His righteousness all ungodly sinners will die in their sin. You have a Christless message with no hope for the sinner. Judaizers were this way as well

Again - for your benefit, I have explained Rom 8:13 fully to you. Again you have not said what Rom 8:13 means according to your view. The more you reply without any explanation/interpretation, the weaker your argument becomes. Explain please - if you are capable of doing so.

 

[BCsenior]

By the obedience of ONE many shall be made righteous.

You're ignoring what I said about one's initial salvation experience, i.e. being declared righteous, etc. etc.
However, the NT continually warns about the possibility of losing that salvation, which you obviously don't wish
to hear. Hey, can't blame you! ... But, if it's the Truth you're after, pay attention!

 

[Danthemailman]

The prodigal son was once alive, then became "dead" in sins, yet thereafter became "alive again".

Certain people will argue that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).

 

[Danthemailman]

But anyway, the bible has a stern warning for those who sin after baptism:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who committs apostasy by renouncing his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by refusing to accept the work and person of Jesus Christ himself, thus giving evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was superficial and in vain and that he was not a genuine believer.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.