Can you lose your salvation?

Danthemailman

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Paul's warning to the brethren in Rom 8:13 does not contradict the gospel. You have failed to explain this verse and instead substitute your own opinion. Shall I wait any longer for your explanation of this verse?
If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because a letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. How about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
 
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mark kennedy

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Certain people will argue that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).
That sounds very Pauline, he was very fond of that expression in his doctrinal discussions. The parable of the prodigal son sounds like conversion, not a backslider that finally repented of carnality. Notice at one point he says to himself, I will return to my father. That's important, I call that a time of decision others call it a moment of clarity, whatever you call it this sounds like repentance. His brother actually poses the biggest interpretive challenge, so did he come into the house? What was left of the inheritance was his, his brother had spent his part. When Dad was gone, did he accept his brother back as his brother? The parables of Jesus are simple, but at the same time you have to wonder which brother Jesus is emphasizing here. His enemies didn't like the fact that he consorted with sinners, but they were repenting while the pious were not only not repenting but were opposing Jesus. Both of these guys needed to repent, the prodigal son being the most obvious sinner, but the good son had an issue to. Don't get me wrong, I understand why he resented his wayward brother getting a big celebration when he had never had one and always did what he was supposed to. Just something there to think about if this is, in fact, a parable of how salvation works let's bear in mind, we are all sinners, even the best of us.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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There is another thread asking the meaning of Hebrews 6.

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Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

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Heb 6:5 - and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

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Heb 6:6 - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I cannot imagine any other way to describe a "born again" believer than, ultimately, someone who has received the Holy Spirit. The writer describes such a believer as falling away from the faith, and states also that it is impossible for them to return.

So yes, according to the plain language it is possible for a person to fall away into condemnation.
As a Calvinist I find very few exceptions to the 'eternal security' doctrine we famously embrace. That passage in Hebrews is one of them, it sure sounds like he is talking about a believer that has fallen way. I guess I don't like to think about it, I mean seriously, what a horrible thought. The condemnation would have to be much worse then someone who never received Christ. So I accept, with one condition that salvation can be lost after conversion. One condition though and I see no way around this, you could only do it once and after that there can be no repentance. Apostasy is so much worse the heresy, to turn on the Lord like that, simply unthinkable, but I won't go so far as to say impossible.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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HTacianas

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In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who committs apostasy by renouncing his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by refusing to accept the work and person of Jesus Christ himself, thus giving evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was superficial and in vain and that he was not a genuine believer.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Thank you for that rather lengthy bit of wordsmithing, but it is rather obvious what the writer meant to say.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who committs apostasy by renouncing his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by refusing to accept the work and person of Jesus Christ himself, thus giving evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was superficial and in vain and that he was not a genuine believer.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Actually the Greek word hekousíōs translated to willfully means willfully or voluntary. Not necessarily continuously.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

wilfully


G1596


Lemma:

ἑκουσίως


Transliteration:

hekousíōs


Pronounce:

hek-oo-see'-ose


Part of Speech:

Adverb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness


Grammar:

adverb from the same as ἑκούσιον; voluntarily:--wilfully, willingly.


Occurrences in Bible:

2


Occurrences in Verses:

2


KJV usage:

wilfully (1x), willingly (1x).
 
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Oldmantook

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If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Also, just because a letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. How about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Why would Paul warn the unsaved about death as they remain dead in their sins? I suggest you study the text. V.11 which immediately precedes v.12 references HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU. The conjunction "therefore" in v.12 links the brethren in this verse with "his Spirit who dwells in you." Thus Paul is clearly addressing believers who have the indwelling Spirit and not false brethren as you claim. An unsaved person is a debtor to the flesh since he/she has no choice but to sin. Only genuine believers are not debtors to the flesh. Furthermore, the use of the conditional word "IF" in v.13 clearly indicates that Paul is warning the genuine believer, as only a regenerate believer has the choice IF he should live according to the flesh, or IF he should live according to the Spirit. The unregenerate person has no such choice to make as he can only choose to live according to the flesh. So Paul is indeed warning in v.13 that those Spirit-dwelt brethren who habitually live according to the flesh face spiritual death.
 
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Danthemailman

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Thank you for that rather lengthy bit of wordsmithing, but it is rather obvious what the writer meant to say.
It was rather obvious to me what the writer meant to say, especially after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Danthemailman

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Actually the Greek word hekousíōs translated to willfully means willfully or voluntary. Not necessarily continuously.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

wilfully

G1596

Lemma:

ἑκουσίως

Transliteration:

hekousíōs

Pronounce:

hek-oo-see'-ose

Part of Speech:

Adverb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness

Grammar:

adverb from the same as ἑκούσιον; voluntarily:--wilfully, willingly.

Occurrences in Bible:

2

Occurrences in Verses:

2

KJV usage:

wilfully (1x), willingly (1x).
To sin voluntarily, willingly, willfully is ongoing and continues. Hence the "if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning" (AMP); "if we deliberately go on sinning" (CSB); "if we deliberately continue to sin" (CJB); "if we go on sinning deliberately" (ESV); "if we keep on sinning deliberately" (LEB); "if we go on sinning willfully" (NASB); "If we deliberately keep on sinning" (NIV); "if we willfully persist in sin" (NRSV)

So like I said, the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual and is a matter of practice. In 1 John 3:7-10, we read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. *Notice the CONTRAST that is made throughout scripture between the saved and the lost, which includes the lost who think they are saved, but are deceived. It's not hard to find such people mixed in with genuine believers in a congregation on Sunday morning.
 
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Danthemailman

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Why would Paul warn the unsaved about death as they remain dead in their sins? I suggest you study the text. V.11 which immediately precedes v.12 references HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU. The conjunction "therefore" in v.12 links the brethren in this verse with "his Spirit who dwells in you." Thus Paul is clearly addressing believers who have the indwelling Spirit and not false brethren as you claim. An unsaved person is a debtor to the flesh since he/she has no choice but to sin. Only genuine believers are not debtors to the flesh. Furthermore, the use of the conditional word "IF" in v.13 clearly indicates that Paul is warning the genuine believer, as only a regenerate believer has the choice IF he should live according to the flesh, or IF he should live according to the Spirit. The unregenerate person has no such choice to make as he can only choose to live according to the flesh. So Paul is indeed warning in v.13 that those Spirit-dwelt brethren who habitually live according to the flesh face spiritual death.
Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the Contrast? Now of course Paul is writing to believers (and it's not hard to find unbelievers/false brethren mixed in with the group) as we see throughout scripture.

Why would Paul be warning Spirit-dwelt believers about habitually living in the flesh and facing eternal death when they are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness? Going with your interpretation creates too many contradictions in scripture, as we already saw in post #228. Paul is giving a warning and it's certainly not hard to find wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep.

Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.

*In Romans 8:28-30, believers have a wonderful promise from the Lord. :) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Oldmantook

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Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the Contrast? Now of course Paul is writing to believers (and it's not hard to find unbelievers/false brethren mixed in with the group) as we see throughout scripture.
Whenever we exegete a particular verse, it is incumbent upon us to study the verse itself to determine whether there are any clues within that verse that indicates its meaning. If we do this in v.13, we find that the contrast is not between unbelievers/false brethren and believers. The contrast is between believers who choose to live according the flesh, and believers who otherwise choose to live according to the Spirit. That choice is indicated by the word IF in v.13. Rom 8:13 in the Greek is what is known as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys this: If and let's assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” Then the apodasis is also true; that you brother will die i.e., spiritual death.
Moreover, your assumption that Paul is addressing unbelievers/false brethren in v.13 is simply not possible because unbelievers cannot help but live according to the flesh. It is not a matter of "if" they live according to the flesh. They cannot choose if they will live according to the flesh since they are unregenerated and can therefore only live according to the flesh. Nor can they live according to the Spirit either. Thus the grammatical structure of this verse makes it clear that Paul is only addressing genuine believers in v.13.

Why would Paul be warning Spirit-dwelt believers about habitually living in the flesh and facing eternal death when they are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness? Going with your interpretation creates too many contradictions in scripture, as we already saw in post #228. Paul is giving a warning and it's certainly not hard to find wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep.
The warning is because Spirit-filled believers are SUPPOSED to be living according to the Spirit, but in reality not all do, do they? ONLY believers have the choice to sow to the flesh OR to sow to the Spirit - each with its attendant consequences. Unbelievers have no such choice as they are unregenerated and can only choose to sin. Why would Paul bother to warn unbelievers since they are already dead in their sins? They cannot choose to live according the Spirit even if they wanted to since they do not possess the indwelling Spirit.

Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Yes walking according to the Spirit is indicative of a child of God. However, a believer has the choice whether he/she allows himself/herself to be dominated by the sinful nature. Domination by the sinful nature is not the exclusive domain of the unbeliever. A genuine believer can fall into sin and become a slave of sin which unless repented of results in spiritual death. James 5:19-20 confirms this.

*In Romans 8:28-30, believers have a wonderful promise from the Lord. :) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
I'm glad you cited this passage as it is often used by Calvinists as the supreme proof-text for their doctrine of eternal security. On the face of it, that would appear to be the case but in reality not so.
Rom 8:28-30 sometimes referred to as the "golden chain of salvation" at first glance appears to support the belief that those whom the Father predestined, called, justified (past tense) will in fact be glorified - no exceptions. However if it can be demonstrated that any of the "links" in this chain of salvation can be broken, then salvation is not so secure after all - even for the elect.

With this in mind, note the word called/kaleō in v.30. It is the same Greek word found in Galatians 1:6. In this verse Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being "kaleō" are deserting Christ and turning to follow another gospel. If kaleō refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it must also refer to the elect in Gal 1:6. These Galatians were true/kaleō believers who were apostatizing from the faith in order to follow another gospel. Despite being the elect - chosen and called/kaleō by the Father - they did not persevere and instead fell away. Therefore the linear chain of progression leading to salvation in Rom 8:30 does not by Paul's own witness in Gal 1:6 demonstrate any security of salvation.
 
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redleghunter

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*Notice the CONTRAST that is made throughout scripture between the saved and the lost, which includes the lost who think they are saved, but are deceived. It's not hard to find such people mixed in with genuine believers in a congregation on Sunday morning.
Indeed and Christ made this distinction in the parable of the soils and the parable of the wheat and tares.
 
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Danthemailman

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Whenever we exegete a particular verse, it is incumbent upon us to study the verse itself to determine whether there are any clues within that verse that indicates its meaning. If we do this in v.13, we find that the contrast is not between unbelievers/false brethren and believers. The contrast is between believers who choose to live according the flesh, and believers who otherwise choose to live according to the Spirit.
False, as I already previously explained. You seem to underestimate the preservation of God. His saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

Yes walking according to the Spirit is indicative of a child of God. However, a believer has the choice whether he/she allows himself/herself to be dominated by the sinful nature. Domination by the sinful nature is not the exclusive domain of the unbeliever. A genuine believer can fall into sin and become a slave of sin which unless repented of results in spiritual death. James 5:19-20 confirms this.
Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin unto death (unbelievers), or obedience unto righteousness? (believers) 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Praise God! :)

In regards to James 5:19-20, *notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died." In 1 Peter 3:20, ..God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no spiritual death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

I'm glad you cited this passage as it is often used by Calvinists as the supreme proof-text for their doctrine of eternal security. On the face of it, that would appear to be the case but in reality not so. Rom 8:28-30 sometimes referred to as the "golden chain of salvation" at first glance appears to support the belief that those whom the Father predestined, called, justified (past tense) will in fact be glorified - no exceptions. However if it can be demonstrated that any of the "links" in this chain of salvation can be broken, then salvation is not so secure after all - even for the elect.
Romans 8:28-30 is crystal clear, but those who believe otherwise have their agenda.

With this in mind, note the word called/kaleō in v.30. It is the same Greek word found in Galatians 1:6. In this verse Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being "kaleō" are deserting Christ and turning to follow another gospel. If kaleō refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it must also refer to the elect in Gal 1:6.
Romans 8:30 clearly states ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified. No chain of salvation being broken here. In Galatians 1:7, we read - which is not another; but there are some (Judaizers) who want to trouble you and pervert the gospel of Christ. Just as in Galatians 5:4 - You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? *Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

These Galatians were true/kaleō believers who were apostatizing from the faith in order to follow another gospel. Despite being the elect - chosen and called/kaleō by the Father - they did not persevere and instead fell away. Therefore the linear chain of progression leading to salvation in Rom 8:30 does not by Paul's own witness in Gal 1:6 demonstrate any security of salvation.
You like to pit scripture against scripture instead of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Did Paul say that these Galatians (who were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers) did not persevere and "lost their salvation?" NO. *I'm yet to find the specific words "lost salvation" anywhere in the Bible. You can believe what you want, but I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security several years ago upon my conversion after leaving the RCC and will NEVER get back on it. ;)

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

*The people who ultimately fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe) -- saving faith in Christ was never firmly rooted and established from the start.
 
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Danthemailman

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So there are distinctively two groups in Romans 8. The present tense is used to denote lifestyles. Those consistently walking according to the flesh in verse 5 are linked to "being in the flesh" in verse 8. And those who "walk according to the Spirit" in verse 5 are linked to "those who are no longer in the flesh" in verse 9.
 
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Oldmantook

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False, as I already previously explained. You seem to underestimate the preservation of God. His saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin unto death (unbelievers), or obedience unto righteousness? (believers) 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Praise God! :)

In regards to James 5:19-20, *notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died." In 1 Peter 3:20, ..God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no spiritual death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

Romans 8:28-30 is crystal clear, but those who believe otherwise have their agenda.

Romans 8:30 clearly states ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified. No chain of salvation being broken here. In Galatians 1:7, we read - which is not another; but there are some (Judaizers) who want to trouble you and pervert the gospel of Christ. Just as in Galatians 5:4 - You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? *Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

You like to pit scripture against scripture instead of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Did Paul say that these Galatians (who were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers) did not persevere and "lost their salvation?" NO. *I'm yet to find the specific words "lost salvation" anywhere in the Bible. You can believe what you want, but I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security several years ago upon my conversion after leaving the RCC and will NEVER get back on it. ;)

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

*The people who ultimately fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe) -- saving faith in Christ was never firmly rooted and established from the start.
You have failed to respond to the text of v.13 as I previously explained. Why is that? You have not addressed the fact this verse is a 1st class conditional statement in the Greek and what that entails. Are you familiar with any Greek at all?? Nor have you addressed how it is possible for an unbeliever/false brethren to not sin as they are unregenerate and are incapable of not sinning. Therefore, Paul's use of the conditional word "IF" can in no way apply to "false brethren" as you incorrectly claim. Therefore your protests skirt the issue and your belief in eternal security is untenable based on this one verse alone.

Gal 1:6 contradicts your false notion that those who are called/kaleo will always persevere and end up being glorified. What does it mean to DESERT CHRIST? Is someone who deserts Christ still saved? Yes or No? The word for "desert" is metatithesthe which is a present tense verb in the indicative mood. Greek verbs unlike English primarily refer to type of action instead of time of action. Thus metatithesthe specifies that those who were called are continuing to desert Christ. The indicative mood though indicates that their actions of deserting Christ are in the present time with no indication of whether they will continue or cease deserting Christ in the future. If such a person repents in the future, then yes God can forgive but until repentance occurs and the person turns back to God, there is no forgiveness. And that is why Paul cannot say that he is "done with them" as the possibility still exists in the future that they can repent. Until such time, no repentance = no forgiveness.

You have the habit of disregarding the plain meaning of the text. In Js 5:19, James warned that IF anyone among you wanders from the truth.... You have the habit of ignoring the little word "if." How can IF apply to an unbeliever?? An unbeliever has no choice but to sin so Paul cannot have been referring to an unbeliever/false brother by using the word "if." So like Rom 8:13. you completely ignore the word "if" which remains problematic for you. You can either acknowledge this conditional clause or ignore it - your choice.
 
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