Can you lose your salvation?

[Neostarwcc]

Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

 

[ClementofA]

Does it matter?

Here's something that does matter:

2 Cor.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Does it matter?

Not really. I was just curious on people's opinions. I guess in a way it matters. Because if you can lose your salvation than Jesus lied.

 

[ClementofA]

Gal.2:18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

Joseph Prince rightly emphasizes God Omnipotent's grace, goodness & never ending unconditional love (except for his endless torments notion, which he rarely mentions), but how often does he warn his listeners as the apostle Paul does later in the same epistle:

Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,[ 20 ](idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, contentions, dissensions, factions,[ **21** ]envyings, drunkennesses, carousing, and things like these, as to which I forewarn you, even as I warned before, that those doing such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

 

[ClementofA]

There are many examples of people who say they have "lost their faith". If a sinner can become a saint, why can't a saint become a sinner again? Did not the angels of heaven become demons? Yet they will once again become angels. The prodigal son was once alive, then became "dead" in sins, yet thereafter became "alive again".

 

[ClementofA]

Scripture say we are to examine ourselves (2 Cor.13:5). Do we have "x-ray vision" into our own spirit to determine "with certainty" of 100% that we are saved & OSAS is true? Can believing one is OSAS while addicted to sins which exclude one from the kingdom of God (e.g. 1 Cor.6:9-10) lead to a false sense of security & a licence to sin as much as one wishes? Even if OSAS is true, it seems the safer course is to heed Jesus' warnings to forsake sin at all costs (Mk.9:47, etc).

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

 

[Der Alte]

[post #2]Does it matter?
Here's something that does matter:
2 Cor.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?.

NIrV 2Co 13:5
(5) Take a good look at yourselves to see if you are really believers. Test yourselves. Don't you realize that Christ Jesus is in you? Unless, of course, you fail the test!
NIV 2 Co 13:5
(5) Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
ASV 2 Co 13:5
(5) Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.
ESV 2 Co 13:5
(5) Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
ISV 2 Co 13:5
(5) Keep examining yourselves to see whether you are continuing in the faith. Test yourselves! You know, don't you, that Jesus the Messiah lives in you? Could it be that you are failing the test?

 

[bcbsr]

Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

First of all if salvation can be lost, it can never be stated that a person has been saved, seeing as salvation is from a future event. That is, one would not be able to say that their fate has been finalized if in fact that fate can change. Yet that Bible does use such rhetoric.

Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.​

Jesus speaks of salvation from condemnation (also known as "justification") being finalized upon coming to faith.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."​

Secondly is the issue brought up in many places like the Eph 2:9 above and Romans 4 which indicate that justification is not conditioned upon one's performance. If salvation wasn't gained based upon one's performance, then neither can it be lost by one's performance. Else it would be like the justification under the law - salvation by works.

Romans 8 also indicates that neither the future nor the individual themselves can change their fate, having been saved.

Rom 8:38,39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation (which includes the individual), will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

But of course typically salvation by works Christians will point out verses that show a correlation between a person's performance and their salvation status. And I point out, as I have in many such threads, that such verses are diagnostic in nature and are not speaking of conditions to be saved or to maintain one's salvation status. That is, while behavior identifies whether or not one has been born of God, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved or unsaved.

1John 3:9,10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
​

As for persevering in faith, that also is an identifying mark of those who REALLY belong. That is REAL Christians in contrast to those mere masquerading as "Christians", there is

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.​

 

[Call me Nic]

First of all if salvation can be lost, it can never be stated that a person has been saved, seeing as salvation is from a future event. That is, one would not be able to say that their fate has been finalized if in fact that fate can change. Yet that Bible does use such rhetoric.

Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.​

Jesus speaks of salvation from condemnation (also known as "justification") being finalized upon coming to faith.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."​

Secondly is the issue brought up in many places like the Eph 2:9 above and Romans 4 which indicate that justification is not conditioned upon one's performance. If salvation wasn't gained based upon one's performance, then neither can it be lost by one's performance. Else it would be like the justification under the law - salvation by works.

Romans 8 also indicates that neither the future nor the individual themselves can change their fate, having been saved.

Rom 8:38,39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation (which includes the individual), will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

But of course typically salvation by works Christians will point out verses that show a correlation between a person's performance and their salvation status. And I point out, as I have in many such threads, that such verses are diagnostic in nature and are not speaking of conditions to be saved or to maintain one's salvation status. That is, while behavior identifies whether or not one has been born of God, behavior doesn't cause a person to be saved or unsaved.

1John 3:9,10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
​

As for persevering in faith, that also is an identifying mark of those who REALLY belong. That is REAL Christians in contrast to those mere masquerading as "Christians", there is

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.​

Well said, friend.

 

[bcbsr]

Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,[ 20 ](idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, contentions, dissensions, factions,[ **21** ]envyings, drunkennesses, carousing, and things like these, as to which I forewarn you, even as I warned before, that those doing such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

As I mention in my main post in this thread, verses like the Gal 5:19-21 or 1Cor 6:9,10, or Eph 5:5 or Rev 21:8 and so forth are not speaking of conditions for salvation but rather are diagnostic. They are talking about identifying the saved from the unsaved.

As I mentioned elsewhere, salvation by works Christians interpret such verses as speaking of conditions to be saved. They reject the idea of justification by faith apart from works. They reject the grace of God. And they read their own performance based salvation concepts into the Bible.

I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Performance Based Justification) But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Justification by faith apart from works)​

 

[Call me Nic]

Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

So these are great questions.

A Christian that is born again of God can never spiritually die again. Why? Because God has conquered death through Jesus Christ, like it is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54-55). Now at the present time is the promise of God unfulfilled toward His people regarding everlasting life in the fact that the day of redemption has not yet occurred, and the saved have not yet received their spiritual, sinless bodies. However, God calls those things which are not yet as though they are (Romans 4:17), and a 1000 years to God is but a day (2 Peter 3:8). So the promise of everlasting life extends to all those that receive Christ by faith and believe on him (John 1:12), and they become born of God. However, they are not begotten of God in that moment in the flesh, but rather the Spirit seals their soul and quickens it (Ephesians 1:13); this is so that once the body of a believer dies, his soul is immediately caught up to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

I say all that to say this: if we are truly saved, we cannot become unsaved, because then Jesus Christ wouldn't have fully conquered death and sin, though the scripture states that he was fully sufficient a sacrifice for the sins of the world (Romans 5:18). To say that we can do anything to undo the work of God is to say that we are more powerful than God, which is also foolishness. The work of salvation is already done - it's finished. It would be just as foolish to say we can lose our salvation in this life as it would be to say we could lose it in the next. We are as saved now as we will be then (in heaven).

And God straight up promised that none would perish once his (John 10:28), and that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

In regards to those becoming apostate, another poster already stated the verse in 1 John about those departing from us because "they were never of us." A person can be a Christian in the eyes of the world, but it doesn't mean that he was a Christian in the eyes of God. Just because a person departs from the faith and separates from God and becomes apostate, doesn't mean he lost his salvation. Either he is still saved (if he was truly saved to begin with), or he was never saved in the first place.

In short, the grace of God is the door that no man can shut once opened, and the door that no man can open once shut. To say, "a man cannot do anything of his own merit to earn salvation" is true, and every Christian would agree. It is equally true to say, "a man cannot do anything of his own merit to lose salvation," yet not every Christian would agree. Salvation is either by grace or it's not, there is no in between. If it is truly and completely grace, the idea of "losing one's salvation" is a misnomer. We never deserved it in the first place.

 

[Neostarwcc]

So these are great questions.

A Christian that is born again of God can never spiritually die again. Why? Because God has conquered death through Jesus Christ, like it is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54-55). Now at the present time is the promise of God unfulfilled toward His people regarding everlasting life in the fact that the day of redemption has not yet occurred, and the saved have not yet received their spiritual, sinless bodies. However, God calls those things which are not yet as though they are (Romans 4:17), and a 1000 years to God is but a day (2 Peter 3:8). So the promise of everlasting life extends to all those that receive Christ by faith and believe on him (John 1:12), and they become born of God. However, they are not begotten of God in that moment in the flesh, but rather the Spirit seals their soul and quickens it (Ephesians 1:13); this is so that once the body of a believer dies, his soul is immediately caught up to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

I say all that to say this: if we are truly saved, we cannot become unsaved, because then Jesus Christ wouldn't have fully conquered death and sin, though the scripture states that he was fully sufficient a sacrifice for the sins of the world (Romans 5:18). To say that we can do anything to undo the work of God is to say that we are more powerful than God, which is also foolishness. The work of salvation is already done - it's finished. It would be just as foolish to say we can lose our salvation in this life as it would be to say we could lose it in the next. We are as saved now as we will be then (in heaven).

And God straight up promised that none would perish once his (John 10:28), and that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

In regards to those becoming apostate, another poster already stated the verse in 1 John about those departing from us because "they were never of us." A person can be a Christian in the eyes of the world, but it doesn't mean that he was a Christian in the eyes of God. Just because a person departs from the faith and separates from God and becomes apostate, doesn't mean he lost his salvation. Either he is still saved (if he was truly saved to begin with), or he was never saved in the first place.

In short, the grace of God is the door that no man can shut once opened, and the door that no man can open once shut. To say, "a man cannot do anything of his own merit to earn salvation" is true, and every Christian would agree. It is equally true to say, "a man cannot do anything of his own merit to lose salvation," yet not every Christian would agree. Salvation is either by grace or it's not, there is no in between. If it is truly and completely grace, the idea of "losing one's salvation" is a misnomer. We never deserved it in the first place.

I agree with you 100% and that was well said. I'm on the "you can't lose your salvation" side too. But I wanted to keep my opinion on the subject to myself and I was more curious about other peoples opinions. Particularly the ones that believe that you can lose your salvation. Because I'm curious as to if salvation can be lost just exactly how can that person lose their salvation. I'm quite fascinated with this topic.

 

[Call me Nic]

I agree with you 100% and that was well said. I'm on the "you can't lose your salvation" side too. But I wanted to keep my opinion on the subject to myself and I was more curious about other peoples opinions. Particularly the ones that believe that you can lose your salvation. Because I'm curious as to if salvation can be lost just exactly how can that person lose their salvation. I'm quite fascinated with this topic.

It is a very interesting subject, friend, you're right about that; and it's also a very touchy one amongst spiritual Christians, I've noticed. Christians who don't believe once-saved, always-saved will declare up and down that it's a damnable doctrine that causes people to go to hell, and shouldn't be taught. They claim that we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" as a condition to retaining our salvation, and I've also heard it said by many of that persuasion that "God won't walk away from you, but you can walk away from God." Logically and rhetorically, those arguments may make sense at first, but they ultimately don't line up with the teaching of scripture (unless the scriptures being used are being twisted to fit their argument); and if they claim that it's a doctrine that causes people to be sent to hell, then they are claiming a doctrine in which a person trusts solely and completely in the free gift of God is sending people to hell, thereby declaring a person's personal righteousness with having anything at all to do with the condition of their salvation: and we all know where that leads.

It seems to me that not believing that a person's salvation is eternally secure in Christ causes a breakdown of the perfect connection of biblical doctrine, which thereby creates contradictions with their personal beliefs about God's grace and mercy, and the free gift of God, but they never seem to recognize that.

And they always seem to be the most anxious folks too, if you notice - never quite relaxed about their salvation. Perhaps boastful due to plethora of good works they feel they do in order to stay on God's good side, but never assured of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't live out my faith that way.

Nevertheless, I'm very glad to see you searching out this subject and seeking a variety of opinions. I pray God blesses your research and brings fruit to your faith as a result. God bless, friend.

 

[HTacianas]

Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

We are warned repeatedly throughout the new testament that salvation is a gift that can be forfeited. It cannot be taken away, and God will not change His mind about it, but a person can squander his salvation through sin or apostasy.

 

[ClementofA]

Some OSAS folks believe they're still saved even if they lose faith in Jesus.

It's a false & very dangerous doctrine to believe in.

 

[mark kennedy]

Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

If you can, it can only hapoen once Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[mark kennedy]

We are warned repeatedly throughout the new testament that salvation is a gift that can be forfeited. It cannot be taken away, and God will not change His mind about it, but a person can squander his salvation through sin or apostasy.

Apostasy 'falling away' from the faith is obviously fatal spiritually, can it happen to a born again believer? I don't think so but becoming mired in sin after recieving Christ would be worse then never having believed, that much I'm sure of.

 

[HTacianas]

Apostasy 'falling away' from the faith is obviously fatal spiritually, can it happen to a born again believer? I don't think so but becoming mired in sin after recieving Christ would be worse then never having believed, that much I'm sure of.

There is another thread asking the meaning of Hebrews 6.

Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 - and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I cannot imagine any other way to describe a "born again" believer than, ultimately, someone who has received the Holy Spirit. The writer describes such a believer as falling away from the faith, and states also that it is impossible for them to return.

So yes, according to the plain language it is possible for a person to fall away into condemnation.

 

[mark kennedy]

There is another thread asking the meaning of Hebrews 6.

Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 - and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I cannot imagine any other way to describe a "born again" believer than, ultimately, someone who has received the Holy Spirit. The writer describes such a believer as falling away from the faith, and states also that it is impossible for them to return.

So yes, according to the plain language it is possible for a person to fall away into condemnation.

Just one question, and yes, I agree with that understanding. After falling away could such a person be restored to repentance? Perhaps a bit rhetorical given the passage but losing salvation after all of that, salvation hardly seems possible.

 

[HTacianas]

Just one question, and yes, I agree with that understanding. After falling away could such a person be restored to repentance? Perhaps a bit rhetorical given the passage but losing salvation after all of that, salvation hardly seems possible.

This is sort of a study of Church history. If we look strictly to what is written in Hebrews, it is a definite that an apostate cannot return to the faith.

It became a serious issue between 250 and 325 or so AD at the end of the last Roman persecutions. There were Christians, including priests and bishops, who renounced their faith, worshipped the image of the emperor, and burned incense to the gods of Rome to escape torture or death.

When the persecution ended there was the question of whether they should be allowed to return to the Church. Hebrews 6 was used as the argument against them. But the Church decided otherwise and effectively set it aside and those "lapsi" were allowed to return.

So "it is written" that an apostate cannot return to the Church, but "we have heard" that they can. There is even a special ceremony the Russian Church uses to bring an apostate back into the Church.

We now have to decide whether we should hold to what is written in the bible or whether we acknowledge the traditions of the Church.

Feel free to google "Novationism" and you can read the whole story.