Can WOMEN preach in CHURCH?

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by AV1611
You read your position into this text for I agree with you that Mary Magdalene was a witness but that does not mean she was equal in authority to an apostle nor that she has the authority to preach the gospel.

I never said she was equal in authority with an apostle. I was giving an example of an occasion when a woman gave the word of God (which is what preaching is) to men.

1) There is no evidence that Mary's mission was ever considered to be on par with preaching in church.
2) This was a one shot deal and she was simply following and explicit command by Christ.

This is another example of how things are being read into Scripture that quite simply are not there.

 

[Floatingaxe]

1) There is no evidence that Mary's mission was ever considered to be on par with preaching in church.
2) This was a one shot deal and she was simply following and explicit command by Christ.

This is another example of how things are being read into Scripture that quite simply are not there.

Phoebe was a pastor.

 

[djconklin]

Phoebe was a pastor.

There is NO evidence that Phoebe was ever a pastor. See Romans 16:1; she was a deaconness.

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is NO evidence that Phoebe was ever a pastor. See Romans 16:1; she was a deaconness.

Nope. I will explain later. Not well tonight.

 

[ArcticFox]

EDIT: I significantly changed my message. I felt that the first one I posted was unnecessarily combative.

Strong in him.
I admire your staying power on this thread, but why do you bother. You know that God has called you to preach the good news and that is the only thing that matters.

I don't agree with your statement. You say that she "knows God has called her," but what we are bringing into question is this very assertion (whether she can/should believe that God has called her). If the Scriptures teach that she cannot be called to the particular one that she claims, then we must re-evaluate what she is being called to. We cannot eliminate this discussion by saying, "Well, you are called and we know that so that's that."

The majority of christians think that it's ok for a woman to preach and there are thousands following in your footsteps.

That's a sweeping and unfounded claim. Please provide statistics, denominational trends, and other evidence to conclusively show that at least 51% or more of Christians support women preaching.

No matter what you do or say you will never convince some people that you are doing the right thing.

Some people have hang-ups about disobeying Scripture. We do not apologize for this. Some of us don't communicate those hang-ups with genuinely love. For this, we apologize. Some of us believe that God has given us an order and hierarchy by which he wants the church to be led; we do not feel any shame in proclaiming this hierarchy, regardless of whether some people consider it old-fashioned, restrictive, or any other overtly negative term.

If God was not behind you 100% you and I know that you could not do the job that you do.

Yikes, I have to say that is faulty reasoning. Numerous Mormon and Jehova's Witnesses are pastors; is God behind them supporting them? If he isn't, how can they do what they do? I think if you look up the lives of numerous religious leaders throughout the Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and Shinto practices, you'll find people who seem to lead with power and integrity; is this evidence of God's working?

As I have said before on these threads, God is doing what he needs to, to expand his kingdome here on earth. the harvest is ready but the workers are few. If you take any notice of some people we will never get the harvest in.

I have confidence that God will bring into saving grace all that he has called unto that grace. Not only that, but I am confident that he does not allow people to be passed over for silly reasons; he directs their salvation so that it comes to pass. God is not so pragmatic that he does "whatever is necessary." He does what is holy and perfect, and accomplishes his goals. This is my firm belief, and I am not concerned that an honest pursuit of God's truth regarding who should be our leaders will in any way hinder that goal. In fact, if we pursue the truth about leaders in the Scriptures, we can be sure that God will bless that pursuit.

God needs all the help that he can get.

There are no words for how strongly I disagree with this statement. I believe it is blasphemous to insinuate that God needs anything. He needs nothing, especially not from us. He created us not to fulfill a void in his existence, but to make his glory known. I cannot say how strongly I am opposed to ever using a phrase like that again, in any Christian venue.

Jon, this message was greatly edited and changed after I viewed your picture. You didn't list an age, but now I see clearly that you are many years my elder. I apologize if you saw my earlier message, which did not have the respect appropriate for an elder Christian.

 

[carlos123]

Hmmm..well said ArticFox!

Carlos

 

[jon1]

You know something, being a christian is meant to be so easy. believe in God, love thy neighbour and do what we are called to do, go out and tell the good news of Jesus.
We can make it as easy or as complicated as we want to.
I have a relationship with Jesus, I pray and he sometimes answers that prayer. He sometimes gives me words of knowlage and heals the sick when I pray for them.
Men preachers, women preachers, we are all brothers and sisters in christ. there are a hundred things that I dont understand or even agree with but I don't try and deny what god is doing because I don't understand it.
We should be banding together as one faith, one body, Not nit picking about what we think the bible is telling us to do. and what it's not. If someone is a little misguided then we should leave that to the lord to sort out. He can do that you know.
And on a closing note I will change my statement from God needing us to God choosing to use us to do his work. Sorry about that.
jon1

 

[TamaraLynne]

Hmmmmmm............I always keep my mind open to the possibility that I might be wrong and I weigh things others say and look to the bible checking everything.

So far..............



I know that God loves both men and women equally.........but just about everything I know about doing the will of God..........


Everything I have learned with the help of the Holy Spirit.........I feel now according to some men.......that I have been reading the owners manual for men only. That the church with walls is a mens only club....women only tolerated. I mean sure..........we have some distinct verses telling us how men and women should behave........but lets take the whole bible......everything Jesus has been trying to tell us......


Are men the only ones to carry out the will of the Father? Jesus said he did only what he saw the father doing......and in essance are we not to do the same because we do the things we see Jesus doing in the bible....and when we see Jesus do we not see the father also?


Am I to beleive that only men are to carry out the will of the father?


I sure would not want to do anything not pleasing to the Lord Jesus.........

I do beleive that having order in the church is very important ......

Can some men here that beleive women are not to be pastors......or teach.........


can you please point out a womans role in the bible?

Can you tell me how in obeying your interpretation of scripture......how it is possible for men and women alike to do the will of the father? To take the bible as a whole and both do the will of the father. or do you think the will of the father is for woman to sit down and be quiet in the presence of men......

I'm mean the only way possible is to split the churches in two..........mens church/womens church. Women being pastors(apostles,prophets,teachers,evangelists also) within the church of women only......men being pastors(teachers,apostles,prophets,evangelists also) in their church of men only.That way both would be doing the will of the father(which includes many things by the way....not just the offices)

Just how is this to work?


Love
Tam

 

[Iosias]

On judging we do have one example from the OT--note this means that it was the very rare exception and NOT the norm.

I know But it is also clear that a female leader was a sign of cursing as is clear from Isaiah 3

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
​

Also:

What about Deborah?
It is argued by some that the example of Deborah, as a woman in leadership, points us to the fact that this is acceptable. That Deborah should be invoked shows how uniform male leadership is in the rest of the Bible. Of course Jezebel would be another example, but she is rarely cited!

We must read the bible properly, as a whole. The book of Judges stands out like a sore thumb. Its leaders are not simple role models - would you want a Vicar like Samson, who slept with prostitutes? The book covers 400 dark years and resonates to the words 'everyone did what was right in his own eyes'. Sadly this is becoming a motto for our day too.

In Judges the commands of God and the book of the law are never mentioned. It is strange, therefore, that people should see such a lawless time as a model for the Christian Church. Moreover, in the account of Deborah, part of the point is that the leader of Israel is a woman. She, knowing that it is not good, pushes Barak forward, but he refuses, this is interpreted as weakness on his part. The prophecy that a woman will kill the enemy serves to underline the point. (As it turns out it was another woman, Jael, who used a tent peg to do the deed - hardly a glorious death for Sisera!)

from: http://www.churchsociety.org/issues...iss_ministry_wompriest_objections.asp#Deborah

 

[Iosias]

Phoebe was a pastor.

Based upon what?

 

[Chickapee]

Hi .............wow this is become complicated
can i add some simplicity maybe ?maybe not .

the angels of God are described by Jesus as being children of the resurrection luke 20

what of ministering spirits ? they'' serve'' the Lord

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Deu 4:16Lest you corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, or beast or creeping thing ..


divisions yes ???



Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
this IS WORKING by the HOLY SPIRIT .............NO divisions ONE SPIRIT ONE GOD working within them

john 4 we see Jesus being no respecter of person either speaking to the woman at the well

the woman believed and told others ministering [served ]to them as He had ministered to her To attend to the wants and needs of others is a general description here ..... salvaion and worshipping the Father in Spirit and truth as all are poor and needy in the spirit and truth Jesus Christ come to Fulfill this work

The Woman of Samaria

7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink."

8For His (K)disciples had gone away into (L)the city to buy food.
9Therefore the (M)Samaritan woman said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew,

ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" (For (N)Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
10Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you (O)living water."
11She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that (P)living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who (Q)gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?"
13Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him (R)shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to (S)eternal life."
15The woman said to Him, "Sir, (T)give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."
16He said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here."
17The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband';
18for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly."
19The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are (U)a prophet.
20"(V)Our fathers worshiped in (W)this mountain, and you people say that (X)in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, (Y)an hour is coming when (Z)neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22"(AA)You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for (AB)salvation is from the Jews.
23"But (AC)an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father (AD)in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25The woman said to Him, "I know that (AF)Messiah is coming ((AG)He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."

26Jesus said to her, "(AH)I who speak to you am He."
27At this point His (AI)disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why do You speak with her?"
28So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,
29"Come, see a man (AJ)who told me all the things that I have done; (AK)this is not the Christ, is it?" 30They went out of the city, and were coming to Him.

witnesses to His glory as only the Lords works can do ! clouds with living water [witnesses ] gathering in HIS HOLY NAME
PEACE .............c

 

[njcl]

women as preachers,ludicrious.............

 

[Floatingaxe]

PHOEBE



Well, Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak. The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant"(upon encountering a female!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he was male, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by Josephus in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.



Re: Diakonos…
Keep in mind that when the N.T. was written the meaning of diakonos was only minister/servant. Where ever the translators have used “deacon” that is an interpretive transliteration into our modern word, fitting the modern word that did not exist 2000 yrs. ago.

Here are a few (too many to print all) of the places where the word diakonos is used:

Matthew 20:26
Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

Mark 10:43
Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

Romans 13:4
For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Romans 16:1
I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

2 Corinthians 6:4
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bondservants (doulos) of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons/ministers:

Ephesians 6:21
But that you also may know my affairs and how I am doing, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you;

Colossians 4:7
Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me.

Galatians 2:17
“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Colossians 1:23-25
If indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

-----------------------
We must go by the Greek word, not the English translations especially the transliterated modern word “deacon”. All the Scriptures (and then some) that I posted are from the SAME Greek word, diakonos. It is the word used in Rom. 16:1 describing Phoebe. At that time it simply meant minister and or servant and as the classical Greek expert said: also attendant or official such as “minister”. Same Greek word, same meaning.

The word we use today with it’s meaning of an order of deacons and deaconesses did not really come into being in English until the third century.

 

[Chickapee]

I BELIEVE THE MAN &WOMAN ARE ONE FLESH...??

now man has not kept the command of wife of your youth hummmm ?...........

Yet ye say, Wherefore?

Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet [is] she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
Mal 2:15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one?

That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

what God has joined together as ONE FLESH let no man put assunder [ cut off or divide]

Peace C ...

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Just for the record...while our church pastor is off to Palestine and Israel, we have a FEMALE minister in his place. What an excellent sermon today! Wish you all could have heard it. Was based on her reading of Acts 11 1:18...Basically the jist of it is how wide is our embrace as christians? Easy to be in a congregation surrounded by all that have the same beliefs. Have someone different come in see how you respond. Will your embrace be wide enough to welcome them? Just for thought...no need to respond.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Just for the record...while our church pastor is off to Palestine and Israel, we have a FEMALE minister in his place. What an excellent sermon today! Wish you all could have heard it. Was based on her reading of Acts 11 1:18...Basically the jist of it is how wide is our embrace as christians? Easy to be in a congregation surrounded by all that have the same beliefs. Have someone different come in see how you respond. Will your embrace be wide enough to welcome them? Just for thought...no need to respond.

Cool!

 

[jon1]

Just for the record...while our church pastor is off to Palestine and Israel, we have a FEMALE minister in his place. What an excellent sermon today! Wish you all could have heard it. Was based on her reading of Acts 11 1:18...Basically the jist of it is how wide is our embrace as christians? Easy to be in a congregation surrounded by all that have the same beliefs. Have someone different come in see how you respond. Will your embrace be wide enough to welcome them? Just for thought...no need to respond.

Great news, I hope that we hear more testemonies to the same effect.
As a matter of interest, how many of the congregation walked out of church because a woman was preaching?

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Great news, I hope that we hear more testemonies to the same effect.
As a matter of interest, how many of the congregation walked out of church because a woman was preaching?

It's the usual 150-200. no one ever walks out..unless a child is loud, then they take them to the daycare that is provided. I guess there are some places where people would walk out, gathering from some of the rather sad posts I read on here.

 

[Floatingaxe]

It's the usual 150-200. no one ever walks out..unless a child is loud, then they take them to the daycare that is provided. I guess there are some places where people would walk out, gathering from some of the rather sad posts I read on here.

Amen!

With 8 pastors and 4 of them women, the men of our church are getting the very best teaching!

We love and respect all our pastors as shepherds over us.

 

[Archivist]

Amen!

With 8 pastors and 4 of them women, the men of our church are getting the very best teaching!

We love and respect all our pastors as shepherds over us.

My church had a woamn as an assistant pastor for several years. She now has her own church about an hour away. The congregation loved her and we hated to see her go. And for the record no one ever walked out on her while she was preaching unless, as has already been noted, it was because of a fussy child or a need to use the facilities.