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Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Ultimate, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
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    What?  It's the 1 Corinthians passage I'm talking about - I was quoting your statements on Jesus subjecting himself to God.  It is not the crucifixion, because Paul said it would be in the future.

     

     
     
  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
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    US-Libertarian
    no, the analogy is quite like what I come up against when discussion trinty. Actually, its EXACTLY like the people that refute it. They have to use siccors to cut out verses from their bibles. I agree other issues are not cut and dry, but this one is. That is why it is part of basic christian docterine. You're a christian, its accepted. That's as plain as it gets.
     
  3. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    To you.  Besides, that list of verses affirming the deity of Christ you gave me - was that not a scissor-job?
     
  4. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
     

    Beware of Antichrist Deceivers
    <SUP>7</SUP> For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.<SUP> 8</SUP>Look to yourselves, that we<SUP>[2]</SUP> do not lose those things we worked for, but that we<SUP>[3]</SUP> may receive a full reward.
    <SUP>9</SUP>Whoever transgresses<SUP>[4]</SUP> and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.<SUP> 10</SUP>If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;<SUP> 11</SUP>for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
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    Private
    Hi Patmos, how does your statement define the oneness of God then?&nbsp; Why does Jesus&nbsp;Himself proclaim the oneness of God?

    Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"&nbsp;&nbsp;

    If Jesus claimed he was fully God and fully man, the scripture He quoted would be a direct contradiction, wouldn't you agree?&nbsp;&nbsp;

    He was quoting from the words of Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4. This is the consistent story of the scripture. There is not a word about three gods or three separate persons&nbsp;in it from beginning to end.&nbsp; If there is, you need to prove your point from the authority of scripture and not the creeds.
     
  6. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    "Babtise the world in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

    The Trinity is fact, Jesus is God.
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Show me the scripture that says that Jesus is God the Son.&nbsp;You'll hear it from the pulpits but not from the scripture. &nbsp;
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Besides, that list of verses affirming the deity of Christ you gave me - was that not a scissor-job?"

    Nope, just showing verses to you, not cutting them out. Big difference. Its clear biblically that Christ is God.

    "Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Show me the scripture that says that Jesus is God the Son. You'll hear it from the pulpits but not from the scripture. "

    Frank, you don't understand that title Son of God, it is in NO way a justification to the position Christ is not God. Please read Pslams 2 and do some reading on jewish culture. I can recommend a good book if you'd like. In fact, when Christ said he was the Son of God they jews though this was blasphmy..so clearly you're missing something if they say by that title he is saying he is God.
     
  9. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    477
    +15
    Christian
    I'll give you more than one...

    I hear this and that about Jesus not being God, but people who are saying this are ignoring a whole heaping load of scripture that says he is.

    Perhaps the most obvious:

    John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"


    Does Jesus then say "Hold on a minute, I'm not God!"? No, he didn't. If Jesus really were just the Son of God, and not God himself, wouldn't he try to discourage people from calling him God? Of course he would. But he didn't correct Thomas.

    Nor did he correct those who took up stones to kill him, who accused him of calling himself God:

    John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


    There are many other verses. Here are some:

    John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


    John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." Note: In the Greek, the word "He" is not present. He is calling himself "I Am", the name reserved only for God. "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" Exodus 3:14

    John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

    John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

    Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

    Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

    &nbsp;
     
  10. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    No problem:

    Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

    Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

    Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

    Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - Jn 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

    Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

    Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

    2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

    Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

    Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

    Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

    Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

    Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

    Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

    Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

    Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

    Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

    Isaiah 7:14 - virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel = "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - the Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

    Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

    Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

    Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

    Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.

    Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.

    Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."

    Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow/tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow/tongue confess.

    Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.

    Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.

    Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.

    Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.

    Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.

    Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.

    Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattles, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates goats from sheep.

    Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.

    Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.


    II. Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God

    John 1:1 - "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges more than one God).

    John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

    John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:18 - Greek monogenes = "only begotten" = unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

    John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus revealed from heaven with His angels.

    John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

    John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

    Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. Jesus = God.

    Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

    Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood = God shed His blood = Jesus is God.

    Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

    Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

    Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

    Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

    Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

    1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

    Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

    Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting his equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

    Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation = prototokos = eternal preexistence.

    Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of God in the flesh.

    Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

    Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

    Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

    Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

    Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

    Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.

    Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." Therefore, God, thy God has anointed thee.

    Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.

    Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

    2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    1 John 5:20 - that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

    Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." Isa. 44:6

    Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.


    III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God

    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God (you heard said / but I say to you).

    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sin.

    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law = God.

    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.

    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father - whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.

    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

    John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. John 14:28 - "the Father is greater than I" cannot contradict John 10:30. Refers to human messianic role as servant and slave.

    John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

    John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" = the Father and Son are equal.

    John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

    John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.

    John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

    John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

    John 16:28 - Jesus says that He came from the Father and has come into the world.

    John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

    John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

    Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

    Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

    Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

    Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  11. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    IV. Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God

    Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.

    Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.

    Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.

    Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.

    Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.

    Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.

    Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.

    Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.

    Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.

    Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.

    Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.

    Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.

    Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.

    Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.

    Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.

    Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.

    Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.

    Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.

    Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.

    Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.

    Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.

    Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.

    Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.

    Matt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22,24; Lk 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus changes bread and wine into His body and blood.

    Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.

    Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.

    Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.

    Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.

    Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.

    Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.

    Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.

    Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.

    John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.

    John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.

    John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.


    Jesus Christ is Worshiped

    Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped = "proskuneo" = worship of God.

    Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

    Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

    Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

    Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

    Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

    Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

    Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God.

    Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

    John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.

    John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou).
     
  12. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi soujiah, thanks for responding, however, I can't comment on all these right now so I'll start with this one first for now.....&nbsp; I think we need to establish the biblical fact as to who is really speaking to Moses according to scripture.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you look at&nbsp;Acts 7:30-32,35,38&nbsp;it confirms that the one who spoke to Moses was an angel. This angel was speaking with the same authority as if he was the Father himself. Because this angel was a servant, a minister, an ambassador, of the Father. And when a servant speaks for his master, it is really the master who is speaking. The angel was speaking with the authority of the Father, and likewise, Jesus was speaking with the authority of the Father, when they said "I AM."
    When the angel who spoke to Moses said "I AM THAT I AM," did that mean that the angel of the Lord was the Father in Heaven? Of course not. Likewise, when Jesus spoke as the Father, does that mean he was the Father?&nbsp;I'll let you fill in the blanks........ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



    &nbsp;
     
  13. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    hi souljah, Let me see if I can cover this one with you.... I don't mean this wrong but I notice a lot of these passages you quoted are not in there proper context.....&nbsp; I'll do my best with this one and again, I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm just going by scripture speaking on it's own and putting all the opinions of men and traditions, creeds and orthodoxy to second place and basing everything from the authority of scripture.

    Philippians 2:5-7, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

    What&nbsp;I believe&nbsp;this declares (according to God's word), briefly, is that Christ - though he recognized himself to be by birth the Son of God, still he did not presume upon this supremely exalted relationship, but humbly submitted to the fact that he, like all other men, owed service and obedience to God, and must "work out his salvation with fear and trembling' (see verse 12).

    Don't you think it would a contradiction of scripture for one co-equal part of the Supreme one God to highly exalt another co-equal part because the latter had humbly submitted to death at the command of the former?&nbsp; Think about that for a moment and ponder on that for a while.&nbsp;Does the scripture support such confusion?&nbsp; I don't think so!&nbsp; The phrase "being in the form of God" refers to the fact that his birth by the overshadowing Spirit-Power constituted him the "Son of God" (Luke 1: 35). This might also cover some of the passages you quoted on the birth of Jesus in the womb of Mary.&nbsp;
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  14. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Hi Franklin-

    This is a testimony to the infinite power of our Lord. It is confusing, as much of our Lord is to our human minds, but in the end, some things are evident.

    Have a good one.
     
  15. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    477
    +15
    Christian
    But Franklin,
    Many scholars believe that the "Angel of the Lord" was actually Christ. If that is true, think about the implications...

    also, You still haven't said a word about these verses:

    John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

    Does Jesus then say "Hold on a minute, I'm not God!"? No, he didn't. If Jesus really were just the Son of God, and not God himself, wouldn't he try to discourage people from calling him God? Of course he would. But he didn't correct Thomas.

    Nor did he correct those who took up stones to kill him, who accused him of calling himself God:

    John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

    Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

    John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
     
  16. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    But slave, many scholars have been proven wrong from the scriptures itself and that is the truth and think of the implications..... "Angels" are called "God" many times in scripture as well. The word "angels" in Psalm 8:5 is translated from Elohiym. Acts 23:9, "...but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God." To fight against an angel is like fighting against God, because he is God's minister.




    Yes, Christ is called "God" in some passages (Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1,14; 20:28, 1 Timothy 3:16, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8), but God's servants are called "God" throughout scripture.
    In John 10:34-38, Jesus himself refers to the text of Psalm 82:6 and applies these words to the "Jews" (Pharisees) who were trying to "stone" him for supposedly making a claim to "deity." Of course, Jesus used this passage to show the Pharisees that using the word "God" to describe himself (as "Son of God") is no more a claim to "equality" with God than the when the Psalmist uses "Gods" to identify these "leaders of Israel" in the Old Testament . In other words, Jesus was saying "how can you stone me for calling myself the 'Son of God' when the Old Testament uses the term "God" to describe other "men" who are sent by the Father, just like me and you."




    In the beginning of what? The beginning of creation or the beginning of Jesus' ministry? you can compare with the other writings of John, for example, 1 John 1:1. 1 John 1:1-3, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

    Also compare the above with other passages:
    Mark 1:1, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;"
    Luke 1:2, "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

    Acts 1:21-22, "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."


    Notice that John 1, Mark 1, Acts 1, and 1 John 1 are talking about the disciples' witness of John the Baptist, the beginning of Jesus' ministry and preaching about the kingdom of God being at hand.
     
  17. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    I am currently occupied with a project.

    Anyone who wants a personal reply:

    [email protected]
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    No, you can't be saved and say Jesus isn't God.
     
  19. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes, you can be saved and say Jesus isn't God.
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    no, you can't..its essiential christian docterine. If Christ isn't God then 1. half of the bible is wrong 2. He can't do the things he said he could and 3. you can't be saved by his blood.
     
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