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Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Ultimate, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    I have lots more if you want...
     
  2. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    GALATIANS   :  1

    Only One Gospel
    <SUP>6</SUP> I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,<SUP> 7</SUP>which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.<SUP> 8</SUP>But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.<SUP> 9</SUP>As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
    <SUP>10</SUP>For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
     
  3. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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  4. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    thanks Brian
     
  5. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

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    Didaskomenos you wrote...

    I think God is wise enough to accept those who accept Christ's work and serve him but don't understand about his deity

    I agree. I don't mean to come off with an attitude that I think this is completely obvious. I don't believe it is. It takes some personal study and some help from the Holy Spirit to grasp it. I don't think it's a good thing to automatically accept a doctrine or predominant belief because most people already believe it. That is lazy faith that borders upon being blind faith. Blind faith is what causes many to be mislead. I respect people who need to make sense out of this for themselves and not just take someone else’s word for it. They are on the right path. Just look at some of the beliefs that some Churches hold, which followers never bother to question. Everyone else in the Church believes it so it must be correct. This is the kind of logic that causes cults to flourish. I don’t have all the answers and in fact am embarrassingly ignorant of much of the Bible but I’m working on it. This is one point though that the Holy Spirit has blessed me with a pretty good understanding of and I enjoy sharing it. I don’t want anyone to believe because I say so. I want people to take the seeds they get from here into they’re personal study and hopefully those seeds will grow into faith and a deeper understanding. I don't feel that understanding this point is essential for salvation (though some here disagree with me). If it was that important to grasp this, it would have been put even more plainly in the scriptures. Still, I do see it as the truth and something that I feel compelled to shine a light on to help those who seek truth to better understand.
     
  6. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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    Louis...I don't know if anyone else wants...but I want...Wow...

    the beginning you were a bit harsh on didask...I certainly enjoy the study though...keep em comin'...
     
  7. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

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    LOL, that was good!

    You know what...&nbsp; I see no reason why it is needed to challenge the divinity of Jesus Christ. I am a CHRISTian because of CHRIST. Why aren't we called Godders? Or JehovahJironians ?&nbsp; Why not Adonaians?&nbsp;&nbsp; Here is why...

    Because Jesus Christ is the focal point of all divinity, the focal point of all history, and the focal point of our lives! And he is all that because of who he is.

    Here is my question...&nbsp; If Jesus is NOT GOD...&nbsp; then you tell me what he is. Surely he is not just a man, surely he is not some just some angel, there is no middle ground.&nbsp; Either he is God, or he is a good human being. Do you think the title of "Lord" and "Christ" are meaningless?&nbsp; I don't have many recources with me, .....

    Does anyone have biblical definitions of titles like Lord and Christ?
     
  8. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

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    &nbsp;

    I love you all :)&nbsp; Thanks ;)

    Love requires action sometimes, and sometimes love requires hard words. I am not afraid to say it how it is, because we all know what scripture says about lukewarm faith.

    I never ever ever ever had a problem with the notion of Jesus being God, for me that what allows him to save our sins in the first place. Like I said in my last post, I see no reason why not to belive he is God. The same way I have no reason not to believe certain characteristics of Christ (ie, that he is love). If I made a post that he is love, someone would probably come back with some wild claims that he wasn't really love because he turned over talbes and spoke harsh at times. Then I would respond with something that shows why he is love eventhough he did some things that aren't normally catergorized as love, then some comment would come back again, after ignoring what I wrote, and the process would continue.

    Note : nobody answered any of my questions witht that long post with all the verses?&nbsp; I suppose some or most of them where rhetorical, but that is because the answer should be obvious.
     
  9. mambutuu

    mambutuu Member

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    Which Christian denominations teach that Jesus is not God but is Lord and Saviour?
     
  10. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Louis,

    I love all those passages, but there are (accurate) presuppositions behind so many of them that I can't begin to explain it all.&nbsp; For instance, calling Jesus "Lord" is not necessarily an affirmation of deity- the word kurios is&nbsp;a title, used of earthly people as well.&nbsp; Many of these people are saying that Jesus was just what Paul said he was, "the firstfruits of creation," appointed by God to be the Lord of all.&nbsp; Take 1 Cor. 15:
    Now tell me that it's obvious that Jesus is in the eternal Trinity, all persons being equal, etc.&nbsp; If you, as&nbsp;a new Christian, read that passage first, you would have found those passages to have different meaning, and not as obvious as you lay it out.&nbsp; It just goes to show that you will find what you're predisposed to find when you read the Bible.&nbsp; Everyone's that way.&nbsp; I will say that you laid it out very well - but the Bible's not arranged that way.&nbsp; You had to pull things out and list them.

    Don't you realize I'm also a Trinitarian?&nbsp; You don't have to talk down to me. &nbsp;Christ wouldn't talk down his nose at anyone - and he actually is superior, not just prideful.&nbsp; He meets them where they are - and you aren't doing that.&nbsp; I'm trying to.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  11. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    The deity of Christ? That's much more explicit than the Trinity. The Trinity has been read back into the text, because the other alternative, God's deification of Jesus, is not as well-attested. I guess that view is what I'm defending more or less - the Arian/Nestorian view of Jesus as created man/appointed God. Still, that's somewhat different from those who see no divinity of Jesus - we have all of Louis's passages to confront if we try to argue for no divinity in Jesus. So, it is fairly apparent on examining the Bible that Jesus was God. The question then becomes how he got that way.
     
  12. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

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    mambutuu asked...

    Which Christian denominations teach that Jesus is not God but is Lord and Saviour?

    Both the Mormons and the Jehovas Witnesses call themselves Christians and both do not accept Christ as God. The JW's believe that he is the Angel Michael. The Mormons believe that...well I'm not really sure but they don't think he is God. Those are two, there are probably more.
     
  13. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    &nbsp;

    2&nbsp; CORINTHIANS&nbsp; 11&nbsp; :

    &nbsp;

    The Danger of Being Deceived
    <SUP>1</SUP> Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me.<SUP> 2</SUP>For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.<SUP> 3</SUP>But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity<SUP>[1]</SUP> that is in Christ.<SUP> 4</SUP>For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
     
  14. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

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    Quote from Didaskomenos...

    So, it is fairly apparent on examining the Bible that Jesus was God. The question then becomes how he got that way.

    Didaskomenos, when you ask how he got that way, it's as though you are saying once he wasn't God and then he was God. Isn't it obvious that he was ALWAYS God?

    In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. IN THE BEGINING. THE VERY BEGINING.

    As long as there has been God, there has been Christ. In fact God made all things through Christ. The Bible clearly states this. He did not go to school to become God; it was not something He worked overtime to attain. It was not a degree that He earned. He did not try to be God; He WAS God. I don't mean to be silly here but He did not say to the Father when He came to this earth, "Keep your eye on Gabriel; he is after my job; watch him while I'm gone." He did not have to do that. Nobody could take His place. He was God.

    God is Spirit. Christ clearly stated this. All of Christs Spirit is God. Part of Gods spirit is Christ. Part of Gods spirit is the Holy Spirit. Personally, I am not in the Habit of using the word Trinity because it's not a word that is ever used in the Bible. But I agree with the concept.

    You wrote...

    So, it is fairly apparent on examining the Bible that Jesus was God.

    Praise the Lord that you can see this Didaskomenos.:clap:&nbsp;

    Maybe now we should move on to the Deity of the Holy Spirit??? :eek:

    Anyone game for giving that one a shot? :help:
     
  15. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    If eternity is as Christian theology says, there was no "beginning" except the world's creation. This would then be the time that John was referring to, the same "in the beginning" that Genesis was referring to. :Þ :)
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "For instance, calling Jesus "Lord" is not necessarily an affirmation of deity"

    When he says, my Lord AND my God it is. Just like saying the ball is round AND red. the word "and" is a linkage and means in addition to.

    "the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

    Umm...don't you know christ went under judgement for us? Didn't you get that idea? that's exactly what that is talking about....That in no way implies that Christ isn't God... *chuckles* Please think it out before you say, no no, it can't be because of "X"..or did you just not think of that passage in context?

    "Don't you realize I'm also a Trinitarian? You don't have to talk down to me."

    My applogies if it seems that way. I tend to throw things out cut and dry. If you will point out the statements that you think I am "talking down to you" I'll try and clarify :) Again, sorry if you think I'm talking down to you, I'm not. Just showing you evidence. It does although, get tiring showing people clear evidnece for the text plainly says in black in white something and them saying, no it does. My only reply CAN be, umm..it clearly says it, just look at the text. Analogy: in front of you is a red ball. I say, no its blue, you say, no its clearly red and go through every scientific test to prove so and show me the numbers. I say, no its blue, your only real recourse is to say, no its cleary red!!
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "The question then becomes how he got that way."

    Switching gears..LOL..okay, how he got that way, it was BEFORE TIME, ie before the "beginning" thus we have to assume that it was always like that because it doesn't explictly say other wise. anything else would be pure spectualtion and unfounded bibilically.
     
  18. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Well now, that would seem like a perfectly reasonable response. Until you actually take a look at the text! Then you'll see that Paul said that sometime in the future (black and white use of future tense!) is when Christ will hand over the reigns to God, so he couldn't be referring to the very past tense experience of the cross. Read it.
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Read it."

    Give me a reference please.

    John 1:1 in the beginning the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.

    what is so hard to understand about that? Is and with God. Christ is diety and always was.
     
  20. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    The ball analogy is too cut and dried - it is tiring to find people who think that all truth can be arrived at so objectively and clearly, when it's obvious :) that our observation of the universe and even the spiritual truths of the Bible are far from black and white. One must not be so preoccupied with his own (even accurate) viewpoint that he cannot take the time to see the reason someone else has a different (even erring) viewpoint, and not fault that person for what's been caused by our fallen world - ambiguity.

    Obvious is not an objective term - it depends on each individual. Just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's objectively obvious, or even right! It's the fact that you can't imagine that others have another viewpoint that makes my stomach turn.
     
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