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Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Ultimate, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Ps 2:7)

    Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.  (John 6:68-69) 

    Booth, Amazing what you can learn when the scripture interprets scripture...... 
     
     
  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Booth, Amazing what you can learn when the scripture interprets scripture...... "

    Yup, I agree. Here it shows us that the title is of authority. It was ment to show that Christ had all the authority of God and thus the power of God. This is why he was about to be stoned when he claimed it. It is a title of jewish rights of first born, not a biologial or inferior/superior relationship. Would you like me to explain further?
     
  3. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Booth, In John 10:34-38 Jesus is referring to Ps 82:6 and applies these words to the "Jews" (Pharisees) who were trying to "stone" him for supposedly making a claim to "deity" or equality with God. Jesus was using these words to show the Pharisee's that using the word "God" to describe himself (as "Son of God") is no more a claim to "equality" with God than when the Psalmist uses "Gods" to identify these "leaders of Israel" in the Old Testament. In other words it was the Pharisee's who were falsely accusing Jesus of making the claim of calling Himself God!  Jesus was saying "how can you stone me for calling myself the 'Son of God' when the Old Testament uses the term "God" to describe other "men" who are sent by the Father, just like me and you." You see Booth, OT judges were also called gods (Psalm 82:6, John 10:34-36) because they were appointed and commissioned to act as God's agents in ruling and administering justice in his stead among men. Yes Jesus had all the authority of God and received power from God but He never made Himself equal with God nor did He ever refer to Himself as God.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Jesus was using these words to show the Pharisee's that using the word "God" to describe himself (as "Son of God") is no more a claim to "equality" Did you even read Pslams 82?

    He is showing them how he backs up his claim, unlike the people in the Pslam. They "walk in darkness" but Christ does mirciious acts and raises people from death. this is also his explaination in verses 37 and 38. He is saying, unlike those people, I prove that I am right. Make sure you read the entire passage next time frank. :) This passage, yet again, proves Christ was saying he was God.
     
  5. wannabe

    wannabe Member

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    Lets put this statement in its "original" form and see if it sounds as "sensible" to anyone:

    Can anyone deny "Jesus" being "God" and still be saved?

    Now before the transliterators got a hold of it:

    Can anyone deny "Iesous" being "Gad" and still be saved?

    Now with "Jesus" and "God" in its original form, can you explain this Louis?,
     
  6. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Yes booth, I read the entire passage and it doesnt say anything about Jesus being equal with God!  As usual, you are using mans interpretations and speculations to interpret scripture!  The trinity is not scriptural, it never has been and it never will be as long as God's word is with us! Not even Jesus or the inspired writers ever taught it! You need to get back to the basics booth and start comparing scripture with scripture and when the day comes that you finally admit that this doctrine like all other man made doctrines are unscriptural and false, you will humble yourself before God and change your beliefs so your mind and your beliefs with line up with God's inspired word and not mans words! You can take that to the bank, God's bank and get a fantastic return! The bank of scriptural truth, believe it or not, it will set you free and you will be free indeed!   
     
  7. Alida

    Alida New Member

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    1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.

    2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.

    3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.

    4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.

    5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."

    6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.

    7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.

    8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.

    9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."

    10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.

    11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.

    12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.

    13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.

    14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.

    15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.

    16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.

    17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.

    18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.

    19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8

    20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.

    21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18

    22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.

    23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.

    24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10

    25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.

    26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.

    27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.

    28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.

    29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.

    30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.

    31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.

    32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.

    33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.

    34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.

    35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.

    36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.

    37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.

    38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.

    39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.

    40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.

    41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8

    42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.

    43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.

    44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.

    45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.

    46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.

    47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.

    48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.

    49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.

    50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.

    51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.

    52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.

    53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.

    54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.

    55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.

    56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.

    57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.

    58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.

    59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.

    60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I read the entire passage and it doesnt say anything about Jesus being equal with God! "

    YOu didn't read the passage then ;) either that or you didn't understand what Christ was saying and the comparison he was making between himself and the people that walk in darkness.

    trinity is scriptural. Always was and always will be :)
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    No booth, it's you that is not reading the scriptures and like I said the trinity is not scriptural!  So far in all these discussions you have not been able to prove it with any scripture!  I challenge you to proove it but be warned it'll just backfire on you and disprove it!  (smiley face)

     

     
     
  10. Alida

    Alida New Member

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    Read the 60 points I posted. Jesus is God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one.
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *sigh* frank, you didn't read the passage at all did you?

    Let me break it down for you.

    Pslams 82:5 They know nothing, they understand nothing, they walk about in darkness' all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, You are gods'you are all sons of the Most high but you will die like mere men' you will fail like every other ruler."

    Here he is saying that the people he calls "gods' are mere men that walk in darkness and don't understand anything, thus he is being sarcastic and asking a question, "I call you gods" and answering himself..you'll die like mere men..thus saying he doesn't believe they are gods.

    In John 10:34 Christ is saying I'm not like these men. they claim to be gods but their deeds do not show it, for they know nothing. Christ is also saying, but my deeds show that I'm telling the truth. This is the meaning behind verse 37 and 38. Thus Christ IS saying he is God in this passage.

    Frank, I think either you didn't read closely enough, or just didn't understand the wording. I hope this helped.
     
  12. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Wow with all the posts on this thread I don't see how anyone could claim the Bible doesn't show us the Trinity! I don't think I have anymore that I can think of that haven't already been mentioned by someone in the 172 posts!
     
  13. Alida

    Alida New Member

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    :clap:

     

    Amen!!
     
  14. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    darkwoof,
    "in the form of god" still creates a problem. It is anthropomorphism, plain and simple.

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom
     
  15. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    Very true, but you are missing the fact that the disagreement with the Pharisees is an interpolation in the bible. No such disputes existed. Yeshua(AS) had problems with the Sadducees. It is impossible to see how keepers of the law(pharisees) would not have understood what Yeshua(AS) meant by "son of G-d) since they had the Law with them.

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom
     
  16. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    Patmosman,
    "If Jesus is not both fully God and fully man, he cannot be the Savior who reconciles man with God."

    This is the dilema of the NT writers who had the Law, and HAD to fabricate things to make Yeshua(AS) into a deity!

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom
     
  17. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    LouisBooth,
    "If Christ isn't God then 1. half of the bible is wrong 2. He can't do the things he said he could and 3. you can't be saved by his blood."

    Exactly!!!

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom
     
  18. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    How do you come to these conclusions?
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Exactly!!!"

    therefore christ is God, that is my conclusion :)
     
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