Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God
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DaveKerwin
Represent the Most High
HOW ABOUT THIS..............
If you don't understand why Jesus had to be God, then give me your phone number I will call you. Send it to me on a PM and we will figure this out once and for all. If you still care to be blind, then ignore this post. thanks.
If you don't understand why Jesus had to be God, then give me your phone number I will call you. Send it to me on a PM and we will figure this out once and for all. If you still care to be blind, then ignore this post. thanks.
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Annabel Lee
Beware the Thought Police
Brian 45, this is not acceptable behaviour on a Christian Board.
Please accept my apologies, Zico, for a moderator not seeing this statement sooner.
· Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
The Bible seems to teach that Jesus was moved into the position of Lordship. Some Christians debate whether Jesus could have ever been made lord if he were the Lord in the first place. As long as you say that Jesus is Lord of all, the only Savior of mankind, and the only begotten son of God (whatever that means! 
), there is no good reason for others to doubt your salvation, because the Bible says that you must agree with the above things, but there is no passage that says, "You must confess that Jesus is God." There is room for debate there. But He IS Lord!
), there is no good reason for others to doubt your salvation, because the Bible says that you must agree with the above things, but there is no passage that says, "You must confess that Jesus is God." There is room for debate there. But He IS Lord!
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DaveKerwin
Represent the Most High
Originally posted by Didaskomenos
The Bible seems to teach that Jesus was moved into the position of Lordship. Some Christians debate whether Jesus could have ever been made lord if he were the Lord in the first place. As long as you say that Jesus is Lord of all, the only Savior of mankind, and the only begotten son of God (whatever that means!
- Jesus existed before he came to earth, he is eternal with God. He is the savior of both new and old testament believers. Salvation comes by faith. Know that the Lord IS God.
- Jesus was recognized as the Lord.
Deuteronomy 4: 35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other
Psalm 100:3
Know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his;
we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.
- Who is the Lord? Who is the Christ ?
Acts 2: 36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.
- If Jesus was not God, could he receive a man's spirit ?
Acts 7:59
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
- God is the Lord over all. So if Jesus is also the Lord of ALL, what does that say?
- How could he be Lord of ALL if he was not God ?
Acts 10:36
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
- Can anyone but God save us? This verse says that the grace of JESUS saves us. He must be God.
Acts 15:11
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
- Can eternal life be through any other than God himself ? Jesus is God, that is why we have eternal life through Christ.
Romans 5:21
so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
- There is power in the name of God. God's name is Jesus
1 Corinthians 5:4
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
- Who recieves Glory forever? Jesus, who is God.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
- Who is equal with God? Surely not us, we have not oneness with God. Jesus has oneness with God because he is God.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one."
- Who is the ONLY Lord? Jesus, who is one with God.
Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about<SUP> </SUP>long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
- God and Jesus are distinct, yet share the same throne. They are one. There is unity in God himself, in both forms of father and son. Jesus says to come to him.
- You cannot honor God without honoring Jesus, because Jesus and God are one. Jesus is God. To honor God, honor Christ.
Matthew 11:27-28
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
John 5:22-23
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
- Even the people back then didn't understand what it meant for Jesus to talk about the Father; the same way we dispute it today
John 8:27-28
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
- Who is worthy of receiving glory from God? Surely not us, but only Christ, because Jesus is God, God is in the business of giving glory to himself, which is why we exist
John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
Am I making any sense at all or was this all a big waste of time? The whole idea of the God thing in the first place is that God exists and we believe in him. God chose to use the person of Jesus Christ to show himself. Jesus was both human and God. This is how God chose to redeem us, himself in the person of Christ. I say that people should not bother with Jesus Christ if they cannot recognize who he is in the first place!!
Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Lord. The Lord is God.
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
That's interesting, Dave. You did a really good job of laying out the argument. Say, you must be one of those "Jesus-is-God Christians!"
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God [it could have just said, "who, being God,"], did not consider it robbery to be equal with God [why would God have to "consider" it at all?], 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name [if he were God, why would Jesus need to be exalted and given "the name which is above every name" - God has that already] 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [NKJV]
I'm not saying that I believe that Jesus isn't God. I certainly agree that the Bible seems to say that he is eternally existing, which is strong evidence of deity in anyone's book! All I'm saying is that the requirement is to call Jesus, as Jude says, "our only Sovereign and Lord," and never "God Himself."
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God [it could have just said, "who, being God,"], did not consider it robbery to be equal with God [why would God have to "consider" it at all?], 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name [if he were God, why would Jesus need to be exalted and given "the name which is above every name" - God has that already] 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [NKJV]
I'm not saying that I believe that Jesus isn't God. I certainly agree that the Bible seems to say that he is eternally existing, which is strong evidence of deity in anyone's book!
All I'm saying is that the requirement is to call Jesus, as Jude says, "our only Sovereign and Lord," and never "God Himself."
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"All I'm saying is that the requirement is to call Jesus, as Jude says, "our only Sovereign and Lord," and never "God Himself.""
No...thomas proclaims him both Jesus is God...
No...thomas proclaims him both
Jesus is God...
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Quote from DaveKerwin...
Am I making any sense at all or was this all a big waste of time?
You're coming in crystal clear my friend. Thank you for taking the time to make the case so thoroughly and convincingly.
I say that people should not bother with Jesus Christ if they cannot recognize who he is in the first place!!
Have patience brother. Sometimes the Holy Spirit takes longer to reveal God to some people. Some are not as far along in their walk with God as others. No matter what, we must always remember that Christ commands us to Love each other...
John 13:34-35
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Keep up the good work Dave.
Am I making any sense at all or was this all a big waste of time?
You're coming in crystal clear my friend. Thank you for taking the time to make the case so thoroughly and convincingly.
I say that people should not bother with Jesus Christ if they cannot recognize who he is in the first place!!
Have patience brother. Sometimes the Holy Spirit takes longer to reveal God to some people. Some are not as far along in their walk with God as others. No matter what, we must always remember that Christ commands us to Love each other...
John 13:34-35
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Keep up the good work Dave.
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Quote from Didaskomenos post...
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, being in the form of God [it could have just said, "who, being God,"], did not consider it robbery to be equal with God [why would God have to "consider" it at all?]
Maybe this will help bring it into focus...
Here, God speaks to his Son Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8-9.
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
What's this? Wait a second, God is calling Christ God??? How can that be. Is this a typo??? After all, there is only one God, right? Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this Deity of Christ thing after all.
Read all of Hebrews 1. Its full of the Deity of Christ.
John 1:1-3, 14
In the beginning was the Word. And the word was with God. And the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Get it???
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, being in the form of God [it could have just said, "who, being God,"], did not consider it robbery to be equal with God [why would God have to "consider" it at all?]
Maybe this will help bring it into focus...
Here, God speaks to his Son Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8-9.
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
What's this? Wait a second, God is calling Christ God??? How can that be. Is this a typo??? After all, there is only one God, right? Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this Deity of Christ thing after all.
Read all of Hebrews 1. Its full of the Deity of Christ.
John 1:1-3, 14
In the beginning was the Word. And the word was with God. And the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Get it???
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"John 8 & 10 are cases of Jesus arguing he was not God. God 'sent' Jesus. Sounds like a prophet, right? "
Not if they are taken in context...
Not if they are taken in context...
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Louis and Simpleton,
Well, as I've said, I've no problems with the deity of Christ. I was merely pointing out the relative ambiguity of such an important doctrine. I mean, you quoted the best evidences, and that amounts to about 3 passages that are really somewhat clear about his deity.
Louis, no one in the NT said that the repetition of Thomas' exclamation was a requirement for entrance into the Christian faith. I should mention that those denying Christ's deity take the linguistically tenable position that Thomas was referring to two different subjects ("My Lord=Jesus and my God=God). I think that's a weak argument. I'm just telling you what they say.
Simpleton, no one who knows much about NT Greek would argue that John 1:1 is as clear an affirmation of Christ's deity as it reads in most English translations. If you want me to go into it, I can. The Hebrews passage is far and away the least disputable passage concerning the deity of Christ, and it's only one verse - that's odd considering what a revolutionary concept the Trinity would have been to the Jews of the time.
I'm acting as the defense attorney of a client whose views I disagree with. I just don't want everyone to act all pompous and say, "Duh, it's obvious, isn't it?! Boy, everybody's stupid except me." And as I said, calling him Lord IS necessary. Show me where it says we must call him God - I think God is wise enough to accept those who accept Christ's work and serve him but don't understand about his deity, given the less-than-obvious status of that doctrine in the NT (and it's practically nowhere in the OT).
Well, as I've said, I've no problems with the deity of Christ. I was merely pointing out the relative ambiguity of such an important doctrine. I mean, you quoted the best evidences, and that amounts to about 3 passages that are really somewhat clear about his deity.
Louis, no one in the NT said that the repetition of Thomas' exclamation was a requirement for entrance into the Christian faith. I should mention that those denying Christ's deity take the linguistically tenable position that Thomas was referring to two different subjects ("My Lord=Jesus and my God=God). I think that's a weak argument. I'm just telling you what they say.
Simpleton, no one who knows much about NT Greek would argue that John 1:1 is as clear an affirmation of Christ's deity as it reads in most English translations. If you want me to go into it, I can. The Hebrews passage is far and away the least disputable passage concerning the deity of Christ, and it's only one verse - that's odd considering what a revolutionary concept the Trinity would have been to the Jews of the time.
I'm acting as the defense attorney of a client whose views I disagree with. I just don't want everyone to act all pompous and say, "Duh, it's obvious, isn't it?! Boy, everybody's stupid except me." And as I said, calling him Lord IS necessary. Show me where it says we must call him God - I think God is wise enough to accept those who accept Christ's work and serve him but don't understand about his deity, given the less-than-obvious status of that doctrine in the NT (and it's practically nowhere in the OT).
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"Louis, no one in the NT said that the repetition of Thomas' exclamation was a requirement for entrance into the Christian faith. "
*sigh* the point that most people say is that Christ didn't come out and say "I am God" he did..they deny what the scriptures say. then we also show that other people called him God..they deny that as well, though the scriptures clearly say it.
"I think that's a weak argument. I'm just telling you what they say. "
*sigh* are you familar with any type of literature? there is no distinction made. He is talking to Christ in both titles. There is also John chapter 1. Col 2:9 and a host of other scriptural references to prove trinity.
"Simpleton, no one who knows much about NT Greek would argue that John 1:1 is as clear an affirmation of Christ's deity as it reads in most English translations"
Sure...go into it. Having done an extensive wordstudy of this verse I'd like to know. I've done the comparative work on this and the current uses of the word Logos of that time period. that and the linkage John makes to Christ who is the Logos pretty much solidfy the position of Christ's diety.
"that's odd considering what a revolutionary concept the Trinity would have been to the Jews of the time. "
LOL..its not the only passage by far.
Would you like me to post a short document pertaining to this dicussion?
*sigh* the point that most people say is that Christ didn't come out and say "I am God" he did..they deny what the scriptures say. then we also show that other people called him God..they deny that as well, though the scriptures clearly say it.
"I think that's a weak argument. I'm just telling you what they say. "
*sigh* are you familar with any type of literature? there is no distinction made. He is talking to Christ in both titles. There is also John chapter 1. Col 2:9 and a host of other scriptural references to prove trinity.
"Simpleton, no one who knows much about NT Greek would argue that John 1:1 is as clear an affirmation of Christ's deity as it reads in most English translations"
Sure...go into it. Having done an extensive wordstudy of this verse I'd like to know. I've done the comparative work on this and the current uses of the word Logos of that time period. that and the linkage John makes to Christ who is the Logos pretty much solidfy the position of Christ's diety.
"that's odd considering what a revolutionary concept the Trinity would have been to the Jews of the time. "
LOL..its not the only passage by far.
Would you like me to post a short document pertaining to this dicussion?
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Didaskomenos
Voiced Bilabial Spirant
That right there - that's gross pomposity. Read that again and see how smug that sounds. They "deny what the scriptures say," even though they say it so "clearly." You are obviously blinded by your own predisposition that you cannot see anything but in your particular light. That's fine! It can be obvious to you. But don't sigh and accuse fellow searchers of denying what the scriptures say - they just don't see it the way you and I do. And you know it!
*sigh* of course I'm familiar with literature - oh wait, does that mean that I have to accept your view? Shoot! I mean, what does that have to do with anything? None of that "proves" trinity, which isn't presented as such in the NT, true as it may be. In fact, none of these passages we've been talking about mention the Holy Spirit. When the Bible talks about Jesus having the fulness of God and etc. multiple times, yet never says that he is, in fact, God, you can't sigh that it's so obvious.
Ok! But not every Christian has had the extraordinary privilege of access to your extensive wordstudy - if you were so sure, why'd you have to do a wordstudy? It's not as obvious as you think it is.
John uses an interesting construction in relating the Word/logos with God/theos: theos is anarthrous (without an article). This does not mean that "the Word was a god" like the JW's say, but rather the word theos is being used as an adjective that indicates the quality of God-ness. In other words, the Word was of God's essence. By not putting an article in front of theos, John avoids making Jesus the same person as God, and says instead that the Word was divine. Without a developed presupposition of Trinity (and a wordstudy that incorporates the contemporaneous view of the logos concept), how are they to reconcile this with John's statements a few verses later in which he says that Jesus was "begotten" of the Father, and not only that, but the "firstborn" ("there are others?!")? Surely it seems to them that he was an ancient creation of God exalted and given Lordship and even divinity. Louis, I understand the arguments, but I don't act smugly because I see why they misunderstand.
Do list some passages that are as clear in the affirmation of Jesus' deity as Hebrews 1. Yes, you can - it won't take you much time.
Not if it is of the same condescending, *sighing* nature as your post!
But really, because I'd like to see your viewpoint a little more clearly, let me see what you've got.
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"But don't sigh and accuse fellow searchers of denying what the scriptures "
I will when it clearly says so. John 1:1 ..pretty easy..
"When the Bible talks about Jesus having the fulness of God and etc. multiple times, yet never says that he is, in fact, God, you can't sigh that it's so obvious. "
Yeah, its pretty obvious. Now you want more trinity references? I can keep going..
"the Word was of God's essence. "
LOL. Do you not understand what it means to have the essence of God? It means you're God. He didn't say it that way because they would not understand! *gives you a quarter to buy a clue*
"that Jesus was "begotten" of the Father, and not only that, but the "firstborn" ("there are others"
Okay, a look in the dictonary would get you past the begotten part. As far as firstborn, if you understood jewish culture you would know that you can be the firstborn and not even be in the family!! its a title of authority. Why don't you read a little about Jacob and essa (sp) to get a better idea of it okay?
"Do list some passages that are as clear in the affirmation of Jesus' deity as Hebrews 1. Yes, you can - it won't take you much time. "
Sure
The Deity of Christ
Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
Jesus is the proper object of faith
It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
then
you can check here for TRINITY verses.
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
I will when it clearly says so. John 1:1 ..pretty easy..
"When the Bible talks about Jesus having the fulness of God and etc. multiple times, yet never says that he is, in fact, God, you can't sigh that it's so obvious. "
Yeah, its pretty obvious. Now you want more trinity references? I can keep going..
"the Word was of God's essence. "
LOL. Do you not understand what it means to have the essence of God? It means you're God. He didn't say it that way because they would not understand! *gives you a quarter to buy a clue*
"that Jesus was "begotten" of the Father, and not only that, but the "firstborn" ("there are others"
Okay, a look in the dictonary would get you past the begotten part. As far as firstborn, if you understood jewish culture you would know that you can be the firstborn and not even be in the family!! its a title of authority. Why don't you read a little about Jacob and essa (sp) to get a better idea of it okay?
"Do list some passages that are as clear in the affirmation of Jesus' deity as Hebrews 1. Yes, you can - it won't take you much time. "
Sure
The Deity of Christ
Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
Jesus is the proper object of faith
It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
then
you can check here for TRINITY verses.
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"But really, because I'd like to see your viewpoint a little more clearly, let me see what you've got."
okay, you asked..
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16: "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been "sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." Then there is the baptismal formula: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). One name (God) -- yet three names!
Yet we can know that Jesus is God because He said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8) .
There are several other reasons to at least start believing our Lord Jesus Christ is God:
Christ' Title and Name
1) Lord means Deity
The title Lord was first applied to Jesus by Simon Peter just prior to his declaration that "You are the Christ, the son of the Living God." Thereafter, Lord is increasingly applied to Jesus. Although the title of Lord may mean simply a master, to the Jews "Lord" was a reverent title of Deity. The Bible of their day was the Septuagint - a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew word for God (YHWH) as the Greek word meaning Lord. In fact, it was the early church's refusal to agree that Caesar was Lord that caused the Christians to be martyred.
2) Jesus means Savior
Throughout the Holy Scripture, the Lord God adamantly proclaims that there is no other savior besides Himself. Yet Scripture also calls Jesus our savior, and his very name means "Savior".
3) Christ means Messiah
The very title of Christ means God's Holy One or God's Anointed One. The Jews looked forward to this person's coming as the Messiah.
4) Son of God
When the scribes and Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy because he was claiming to be equal with God. Jesus and Hebrews also explain that the Son of God means deity.
5) Son of Man
The Son of Man is Jesus favorite name for himself. This name reaches back to Daniel's name for the Messiah. By calling Himself the son of Man, Jesus was identifying Himself as the anointed one - the Christ.
6) Lord of Glory
When Jesus is called the Lord of Glory, this title refers specifically to His Deity.
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the "Lord of glory." - 1 Corinthians 2:8
mesh with:
Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. - Isaiah 60:1-2
7) Claimed to be One with the Father
There is a oneness to the triune God that is beyond our comprehension. Not only is the Father in Jesus, but Jesus is in the Father. Truly, the Lord is one.
8) Claimed to Be Lord of The Sabbath
The Sabbath is the day is the day of rest at the completion of the creation. By claiming to be the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus is claiming to have been the one who rested on the seventh day.
9) Claimed to be Lord over All
There can only be one supreme commander in chief. And there can only be one Lord over all. Jesus is not competing with the Father, because Jesus too is YHWH - the Lord over All.
10) Claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega
Only six times in scripture does anyone claim to be the very first and the very last. Three times the LORD God makes this claim, and three times Jesus Christ makes the same claim.
11) Made several "I Am" statements
It seems no coincidence that Jesus Christ, when asked question concerning His nature, replied with the same answer that the Lord God used when Moses asked questions.
12) Christ dared to forgive Sins
Only one person can forgive a sin against God, and that's God. Yet Jesus repeatedly completely forgave sin.
13) Christ spoke with authority
All the other prophets spoke saying, "Thus Says the Lord,". But not Jesus. When He taught, the listeners marveled at His authority.
okay, you asked..
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16: "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been "sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." Then there is the baptismal formula: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). One name (God) -- yet three names!
Yet we can know that Jesus is God because He said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8) .
There are several other reasons to at least start believing our Lord Jesus Christ is God:
Christ' Title and Name
1) Lord means Deity
The title Lord was first applied to Jesus by Simon Peter just prior to his declaration that "You are the Christ, the son of the Living God." Thereafter, Lord is increasingly applied to Jesus. Although the title of Lord may mean simply a master, to the Jews "Lord" was a reverent title of Deity. The Bible of their day was the Septuagint - a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew word for God (YHWH) as the Greek word meaning Lord. In fact, it was the early church's refusal to agree that Caesar was Lord that caused the Christians to be martyred.
2) Jesus means Savior
Throughout the Holy Scripture, the Lord God adamantly proclaims that there is no other savior besides Himself. Yet Scripture also calls Jesus our savior, and his very name means "Savior".
3) Christ means Messiah
The very title of Christ means God's Holy One or God's Anointed One. The Jews looked forward to this person's coming as the Messiah.
4) Son of God
When the scribes and Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy because he was claiming to be equal with God. Jesus and Hebrews also explain that the Son of God means deity.
5) Son of Man
The Son of Man is Jesus favorite name for himself. This name reaches back to Daniel's name for the Messiah. By calling Himself the son of Man, Jesus was identifying Himself as the anointed one - the Christ.
6) Lord of Glory
When Jesus is called the Lord of Glory, this title refers specifically to His Deity.
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the "Lord of glory." - 1 Corinthians 2:8
mesh with:
Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. - Isaiah 60:1-2
7) Claimed to be One with the Father
There is a oneness to the triune God that is beyond our comprehension. Not only is the Father in Jesus, but Jesus is in the Father. Truly, the Lord is one.
8) Claimed to Be Lord of The Sabbath
The Sabbath is the day is the day of rest at the completion of the creation. By claiming to be the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus is claiming to have been the one who rested on the seventh day.
9) Claimed to be Lord over All
There can only be one supreme commander in chief. And there can only be one Lord over all. Jesus is not competing with the Father, because Jesus too is YHWH - the Lord over All.
10) Claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega
Only six times in scripture does anyone claim to be the very first and the very last. Three times the LORD God makes this claim, and three times Jesus Christ makes the same claim.
11) Made several "I Am" statements
It seems no coincidence that Jesus Christ, when asked question concerning His nature, replied with the same answer that the Lord God used when Moses asked questions.
12) Christ dared to forgive Sins
Only one person can forgive a sin against God, and that's God. Yet Jesus repeatedly completely forgave sin.
13) Christ spoke with authority
All the other prophets spoke saying, "Thus Says the Lord,". But not Jesus. When He taught, the listeners marveled at His authority.
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
If the greatest sin is breaking the greatest commandment, then worshiping anyone or anything besides God is the greatest sin possible. Yet, Jesus regularly received worship, and blessed those who worshipped Him. Is this blasphemy, or obeying the greatest commandment? 14) He is worshiped at His Birth
At His entry into His Earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by shepards, wise men and angels.
15) His disciples worshiped him
Those closest to Christ, who heard His private teachings and prayed daily with Him, worshiped Christ!
16) Those he healed worshiped him
Those Christ healed responded with appropriate worship for their God!
17) The Holy Scriptures worship Him
So often a New Testament writer is explaining some aspect of God, or our salvation, and He breaks into a passage of worship and praise for God, and for Christ. That the God-breathed Holy Scriptures worship Christ is perhaps the most significant proof of the Deity of Jesus. If Christ is not God, then by this proof, the entire foundation of Christianity just came tumbling down!
18) Heaven worships him
The book of Revelation is an incredible glimpse into the worship of heaven. The focal point of the book is worship directed toward our Lord Jesus Christ. One hundred million angels, the twenty-four elders and the four heavenly being can't be wrong.
19) Angels are commanded to worship him
God commands the angels to worship Christ! Is the Lord God committing idolatry?
20) Every Knee shall bow
In Paul's great hymn of the incarnation, the song concludes with the bold statement that every knee, believer or not, all will bow before Christ - and declare that Jesus Christ is LORD!
Evidence of Christ's Divine Nature
21) Self-Existent
Christ has no beginning - as only God can claim
22) Omnipotent
Christ has all power - as only God can have!
23) Omnipresent
Christ's divine nature is infinite and without boundary - as only God can be!
24) Omniscience
Christ knows every secret - as only God can know!
25) Holy
Christ is holy and righteous - as only God is holy.
26) Good
Christ is good - as only God is good.
27) Just
Christ is fair and just, and judge of everyone - as only God shows justice.
28) Eternal
Christ is eternal, pre-existent and the ancient of days - as only God is beyond the markers of time.
29) Immutable
Christ is the same today, yesterday, and forever, consistent, unchanging - as only God is immutable.
30) The Creator
Christ is no other than the one who spoke time, the universe, the laws of physics, and your soul into being - as only God can do!
31) Sustainer of Life
Christ is the one who sustains all life - as God is the source of life
32) The King
Christ is the King of the Universe - as only God can rule!
33) sends forth the Holy Spirit
Christ sends forth the Comforter - as only God can send forth His Spirit.
34) The Light of the World
Christ is the source of spiritual light and truth and the light of heaven - as only God is the source of truth.
The Old Testament Prophets Prepared for the Messiah as YHWH Himself
35) Isaiah
The Prophet spoke of the Messiah as the Mighty God!
36) John the Baptist
The final prophet of the Old Testament made straight the path of the Lord
37) Psalms
Several Psalms speak to the Son as God.
The Apostle John Taught that Jesus is God
38) John's Gospel Prelude
The Gospel of John opens with the clearest possible way that John can say that Christ both "is God" and "is with God". John say that the word became flesh and tabernacled among His people.
39) John calls Jesus True God
In one of John's letters, he directly calls Jesus the true God.
40) Jesus blessed Thomas' confession that Jesus was his God
John records Thomas' confession that Jesus was his Lord and his God. And Jesus responds by blessing the confession.
The author of Hebrews taught the Deity of Christ
41) The letter to the Hebrews revels the Glory of Jesus' Deity
Hebrews opens the Holy Scriptures (O.T.) and shows how Jesus is higher than the angels by showing that Jesus is God Himself. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
- Hebrews 1:3
Wow! How clearer can it get? Christ's Divinity means that He is the God in the flesh. This verse reminds me of the Transfiguration. When Jesus gave his best friends a glimpse of His Divine glory.
42) The Builder of all things
In my personal favorite passage of Deity, the writer of Hebrews weaves a wonderfully concise progression of logic explaining that Jesus is greater than Moses, because Jesus is the builder (of the law, and of the church)and the builder is God.
43) The Father calls The Son God
The writer of Hebrews opens the Old Testament and shows points to a dialog between God the Father and God the son, wherein the Father calls the Son "Oh God"! - Hebrews 1:8
Paul the Apostle teaches that Jesus is God Incarnate
The Apostle Paul persecuted Christians before meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. The glory of God shinning from Jesus blinded Paul. Paul's personal encounter with the Deity of Christ changed him. Paul became a bondservant of Jesus, an apostle called to preach the gospel.
44) the Incarnation Hymn
Paul's famous incarnation hymn guides the reader with Christ as Christ humbles Himself and becomes a man. Christ is then obedient to the cross and is then glorified by the Father. -Philippians 2: 5-11
45) Jesus is our great God
Paul writes to his friend, Titus, with the great hope of the appearance of Jesus Christ, our Great God and Savior. - Titus 2:13 Literally in the Greek it reads: "Great God Also Savior (of us) Jesus Christ"
46) Jesus is the bodily image of God
In several passages, Paul explains that Jesus is the God made visible.
47) Christ is God of all
In a passage of praise and worship to Jesus Christ, Paul praises Christ as God, over all, blessed and eternal.
48) It was God who bled on the cross
In a sad farewell to a beloved congregation Paul says the church was bought by God's blood. - Acts 20:28
49) The Incarnation is the Mystery of Godliness
To Timothy, Paul's protege, he writes that the incarnation is the great mystery of Godliness.
At His entry into His Earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by shepards, wise men and angels.
15) His disciples worshiped him
Those closest to Christ, who heard His private teachings and prayed daily with Him, worshiped Christ!
16) Those he healed worshiped him
Those Christ healed responded with appropriate worship for their God!
17) The Holy Scriptures worship Him
So often a New Testament writer is explaining some aspect of God, or our salvation, and He breaks into a passage of worship and praise for God, and for Christ. That the God-breathed Holy Scriptures worship Christ is perhaps the most significant proof of the Deity of Jesus. If Christ is not God, then by this proof, the entire foundation of Christianity just came tumbling down!
18) Heaven worships him
The book of Revelation is an incredible glimpse into the worship of heaven. The focal point of the book is worship directed toward our Lord Jesus Christ. One hundred million angels, the twenty-four elders and the four heavenly being can't be wrong.
19) Angels are commanded to worship him
God commands the angels to worship Christ! Is the Lord God committing idolatry?
20) Every Knee shall bow
In Paul's great hymn of the incarnation, the song concludes with the bold statement that every knee, believer or not, all will bow before Christ - and declare that Jesus Christ is LORD!
Evidence of Christ's Divine Nature
21) Self-Existent
Christ has no beginning - as only God can claim
22) Omnipotent
Christ has all power - as only God can have!
23) Omnipresent
Christ's divine nature is infinite and without boundary - as only God can be!
24) Omniscience
Christ knows every secret - as only God can know!
25) Holy
Christ is holy and righteous - as only God is holy.
26) Good
Christ is good - as only God is good.
27) Just
Christ is fair and just, and judge of everyone - as only God shows justice.
28) Eternal
Christ is eternal, pre-existent and the ancient of days - as only God is beyond the markers of time.
29) Immutable
Christ is the same today, yesterday, and forever, consistent, unchanging - as only God is immutable.
30) The Creator
Christ is no other than the one who spoke time, the universe, the laws of physics, and your soul into being - as only God can do!
31) Sustainer of Life
Christ is the one who sustains all life - as God is the source of life
32) The King
Christ is the King of the Universe - as only God can rule!
33) sends forth the Holy Spirit
Christ sends forth the Comforter - as only God can send forth His Spirit.
34) The Light of the World
Christ is the source of spiritual light and truth and the light of heaven - as only God is the source of truth.
The Old Testament Prophets Prepared for the Messiah as YHWH Himself
35) Isaiah
The Prophet spoke of the Messiah as the Mighty God!
36) John the Baptist
The final prophet of the Old Testament made straight the path of the Lord
37) Psalms
Several Psalms speak to the Son as God.
The Apostle John Taught that Jesus is God
38) John's Gospel Prelude
The Gospel of John opens with the clearest possible way that John can say that Christ both "is God" and "is with God". John say that the word became flesh and tabernacled among His people.
39) John calls Jesus True God
In one of John's letters, he directly calls Jesus the true God.
40) Jesus blessed Thomas' confession that Jesus was his God
John records Thomas' confession that Jesus was his Lord and his God. And Jesus responds by blessing the confession.
The author of Hebrews taught the Deity of Christ
41) The letter to the Hebrews revels the Glory of Jesus' Deity
Hebrews opens the Holy Scriptures (O.T.) and shows how Jesus is higher than the angels by showing that Jesus is God Himself. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
- Hebrews 1:3
Wow! How clearer can it get? Christ's Divinity means that He is the God in the flesh. This verse reminds me of the Transfiguration. When Jesus gave his best friends a glimpse of His Divine glory.
42) The Builder of all things
In my personal favorite passage of Deity, the writer of Hebrews weaves a wonderfully concise progression of logic explaining that Jesus is greater than Moses, because Jesus is the builder (of the law, and of the church)and the builder is God.
43) The Father calls The Son God
The writer of Hebrews opens the Old Testament and shows points to a dialog between God the Father and God the son, wherein the Father calls the Son "Oh God"! - Hebrews 1:8
Paul the Apostle teaches that Jesus is God Incarnate
The Apostle Paul persecuted Christians before meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. The glory of God shinning from Jesus blinded Paul. Paul's personal encounter with the Deity of Christ changed him. Paul became a bondservant of Jesus, an apostle called to preach the gospel.
44) the Incarnation Hymn
Paul's famous incarnation hymn guides the reader with Christ as Christ humbles Himself and becomes a man. Christ is then obedient to the cross and is then glorified by the Father. -Philippians 2: 5-11
45) Jesus is our great God
Paul writes to his friend, Titus, with the great hope of the appearance of Jesus Christ, our Great God and Savior. - Titus 2:13 Literally in the Greek it reads: "Great God Also Savior (of us) Jesus Christ"
46) Jesus is the bodily image of God
In several passages, Paul explains that Jesus is the God made visible.
47) Christ is God of all
In a passage of praise and worship to Jesus Christ, Paul praises Christ as God, over all, blessed and eternal.
48) It was God who bled on the cross
In a sad farewell to a beloved congregation Paul says the church was bought by God's blood. - Acts 20:28
49) The Incarnation is the Mystery of Godliness
To Timothy, Paul's protege, he writes that the incarnation is the great mystery of Godliness.
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
and even some of your objections..
Those who deny the deity of Christ offer the following objections. 1) Jesus is the firstborn
The objection: If Jesus is the firstborn then he was born, right? So, how can a God have a beginning?
The answer: Firstborn is the position of greatest honor in the family and is more of a title than actually saying Christ is born. Also, firstborn refers to Christ as the first to be raised from the dead with a glorified body.
2) Jesus is the mediator between man and God
The objection: How can Jesus be between God and man and be God at the same time?
The answer: Christ is the perfect mediator because He is both man and God. How could a mere man serve as God's mediator?
3) Jesus prayed to the Father
The objection: If Christ is God he would not need to pray to communicate with the Father.
The answer: Jesus prayed as a human in submission and worship to His Father.
4) Jesus Called God His God.
The objection: Jesus worshiped God as His God. If Jesus thought God was God why don't we take the same position and simply worship God and not Jesus?
The answer: In submission and worship to the Father, Jesus called God the Father His God. (see Psalm 45.)
Those who deny the deity of Christ offer the following objections. 1) Jesus is the firstborn
The objection: If Jesus is the firstborn then he was born, right? So, how can a God have a beginning?
The answer: Firstborn is the position of greatest honor in the family and is more of a title than actually saying Christ is born. Also, firstborn refers to Christ as the first to be raised from the dead with a glorified body.
2) Jesus is the mediator between man and God
The objection: How can Jesus be between God and man and be God at the same time?
The answer: Christ is the perfect mediator because He is both man and God. How could a mere man serve as God's mediator?
3) Jesus prayed to the Father
The objection: If Christ is God he would not need to pray to communicate with the Father.
The answer: Jesus prayed as a human in submission and worship to His Father.
4) Jesus Called God His God.
The objection: Jesus worshiped God as His God. If Jesus thought God was God why don't we take the same position and simply worship God and not Jesus?
The answer: In submission and worship to the Father, Jesus called God the Father His God. (see Psalm 45.)
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