Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[MarkEvan]

Which among you is without sin? Which of you has never sinned since you were born again?

There is a difference between what you ask above and what it means to walk in sin, James makes it quite clear in chapter 1 that the consequences of continuance in sin for a believer is death......unless you are going to say that vs 13, 14 and 15 are not talking about believers?


13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.





However perhaps we should look at things Jesus said.......'be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'.................'go away and sin no more.' Don`t get me wrong I am not saying that in a beleievers life he will not sin......we do, however we do not have to because He has given us everything needed for life and Godliness (2 peter 1), and there is no temptation that is not comon to all man.........and He is faithful and will provide the way out,' if we were to continue in sin we would not be exercizing the gift within us.........do you really believe that the Spirit will stay with such a person? Bearing in mind what Ezekiel 3 says


16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."



Mark

 

[Ormly]

1 John 1







Would you not call walking in sin......walking in darkness?

How great is the darkness?

 

[Ormly]

The Luke passage. It is speaking of an unbeliever. The man is a demoniac. There is no suggestion of the unclean spirit being cast out, it only says he (the demon) goes out. The demon most probably got bored and figured he would go out for a drink. Seems it turned out none of the pubs had any beer. (arid places)

peace

The LK passage is not of an unbeliever but one who now has become a believer and did nothing to sustain himself in his new faith. Ever smoke and try to quit?

 

[sawdust]

1 John 1:5&6

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.


Would you not call walking in sin......walking in darkness?

Yes. I do call walking in sin walking in darkness and the verse you quote is precisely what I have been trying to explain.

If we walk in the dark (sin), we do NOT HAVE FELLOWSHIP. It means we are not relating to God. We are not filled with the Spirit and wakling by faith. The truth of God is not controlling the way we live our lives.

This does not mean we have become "unadopted". It does not mean we have been transferred back into the kingdom of darkess. It does not mean the Spirit no longer indwells our body. It does not break the seal with which we are sealed. It does not strip us of our position (and hence responsibilities) of being Christ's ambassadors. It does not strip us of the title of being a royal priest.

"It is finished" (Jn.19:30)

Our salvation from death is 100% secured. We will never enter the second death.

If we walk in the dark what it does do is make us appear as if we are unbelievers because that is the way in which we are trying to live. But it never alters our positional truth we have in Christ.

If it actually undid our positional truth GOD WOULD NOT DISCIPLINE US. He does not discipline those who do not belong to Him.

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Heb.12:7&8

peace

 

[heymikey80]

There is a difference between what you ask above and what it means to walk in sin, James makes it quite clear in chapter 1 that the consequences of continuance in sin for a believer is death......unless you are going to say that vs 13, 14 and 15 are not talking about believers?

I've no qualms saying it: James isn't talking strictly to believers. He's talking to a wide congregation.

When you (this is the abstract "you") start assuming that people in the Apostolic church are all believers, then you get rather odd statements from the Apostles. But if you assume the Apostolic church is much like ours -- wheat and tares -- a number of congregational challenges start to pop out of the Apostolic letters.

However perhaps we should look at things Jesus said...

Happy to. "No one is good but God alone." "Anyone angry with his brother is liable to judgment." "An enemy has done this."

if we were to continue in sin we would not be exercizing the gift within us.........do you really believe that the Spirit will stay with such a person?

Speaking for myself, and knowing nbf, I don't think that it would be permanent. But I've certainly continually sinned and known a number of people who continually sinned, whom I know to rely on Christ. I think the larger question is whether the Spirit actually re-created someone who then refused to follow Him. Do you really believe that the Spirit would make a new creature that would defy Him?

 

[sawdust]

The LK passage is not of an unbeliever but one who now has become a believer and did nothing to sustain himself in his new faith. Ever smoke and try to quit?

Try comparing Matthews account (Matt.12:43-45). The man's house is "unoccupied". The believers house is occupied by the Holy Spirit.

peace

 

[Ben johnson]

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Heb.12:7&8

Ya' stopped too soon. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live?" Heb12:9

And of course, verse 25 follows.

"See that you do not refuse Him whi is speaking; for if those did not escape who refused an earthly warner, much less shall WE escape who turn away from God."

 

[Ormly]

Try comparing Matthews account (Matt.12:43-45). The man's house is "unoccupied". The believers house is occupied by the Holy Spirit.

peace

It is only if it is. While true of the one reborn; imputation, it is not an automatic impartation which is something the believer must embark upon after being saved and reborn. Ask yourself the question, what happens if I don't want to work out my salvation? Not to go forward is to go backward.

 

[squint]

Ya' stopped too soon. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live?" Heb12:9

And of course, verse 25 follows.

"See that you do not refuse Him whi is speaking; for if those did not escape who refused an earthly warner, much less shall WE escape who turn away from God."

Why is it that you view that statement as meaning eternal torture in fire? (or insert any other favorite alternative form of similar)

We "escape" from the darkness...and we can be again TAKEN by that darkness IN THIS LIFE if we turn away from HIS LIGHT/LIFE.

This still by no means makes God the eternal torturer of those slaves if that transpires...even though they may very well end up much worse for the wear in this present world.

 

[frumanchu]

You must understand, squint, that once one places "free will" above God's sovereignty, any and everything is a euphemism for losing salvation and perishing eternally. The concept of the hypothetical for instruction is completely discarded in favor of logically fallacious support for losing a salvation that Scripture said is secured by God Himself. There is no room for God's ability to bring about that which He purposes..He is left wholly at the mercy of man's will.

 

[squint]

You must understand, squint, that once one places "free will" above God's sovereignty,

What freewill might that be again?

Has freewill freewilled your flesh and mind sinless?

Has freewill kept Satan from stealing the Word sown in ones heart.

Mankind is not alone in either flesh or mind. Jesus openly showed mankind to have the devil and his messengers upon them, providing us with thousands of examples of this FACT.

So where is that in the rendering of "freewill?"

Those powers of darkness are the very things we are "saved" from.

any and everything is a euphemism for losing salvation and perishing eternally.

Only by impositions because there is certainly not one named believer in the entire N.T. who is said to be going to suffer that fate. One would think we'd have at least one, maybe two named examples of that fact before we try to sprout a doctrine over it.

And who is to say that many denominations are NOT incorrect in many of these matters anyway? It's just another way to blame, accuse and condemn our fallen captive brethren of mankind which I see as a working of the enemies in any case because of that attack on fallen commrades.

The concept of the hypothetical for instruction is completely discarded in favor of logically fallacious support for losing a salvation that Scripture said is secured by God Himself. There is no room for God's ability to bring about that which He purposes..He is left wholly at the mercy of man's will.

Ah! Here I thought you were reasoning FOR the postion of our fellow fallen believers being TORCHED forever...

pardona moi! The observations above have been put in view in this thread and they will stand to reason, which I prefer over subjective extensions that do not exist. IF we are going to believe such things, they should have been put well past contentions. But obviously that position causes great divisions, and THAT is part of The Words Working IN mankind...to "show us" what is in us all that is NOT US...

enjoy!

squint

 

[sawdust]

Ya' stopped too soon. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live?" Heb12:9

And of course, verse 25 follows.

"See that you do not refuse Him whi is speaking; for if those did not escape who refused an earthly warner, much less shall WE escape who turn away from God."

No I didn't stop too soon. It is just that you continue to see those verses from the viewpoint of being able to lose your salvation.

If you understood what I was saying you would understand those verses in a different light.

In verse 9 the "and live" is literally "shall be living". It is talking about living the spiritual life.


In other words it is better to be under the control of the Spirit (filled with the Spirit) so we might live our spiritual life than be under the control of the flesh and not fulfill God's plan and hence have to get our backsides whacked by God.

In verse 25 you should have tried underlining this part.

"See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if those did not escape who refused an earthly warner, much less shall WE escape who turn away from God.

Do you know what it is you won't escape? Read verses 7 - 12 in context. The writer is not talking about the lake of fire he is talking about discipline. We won't escape discipline Ben.

There are two types of hardship we endure for discipline. The first type is where we have the resources and the grace to endure. This type of suffering is for the Christian who is moving along the right path and it is designed to strengthen and purify the faith they have. The second type is for the Christian who is refusing to listen to the Word and it is not bearable. The reason it is not bearable is because:
1. the person is not utilising the word they already know (faith) and
2. because the Lord does not give them the grace to endure the hardship.

It is specifically designed not to be bearable because God wants to bring that person to their knees (humble him).

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Jm.4:6

It is better to humble onself because that is done in the privacy of one's own soul. It is a matter between God and the believer. But if God has to force humility on a believer then it will not be private. Others will see their shame.

For the believer who refuses to listen to God it becomes a double whammy. Not only do they not enjoy the blessings the Lord has placed in Christ their humiliation becomes a public affair.

peace

 

[Ormly]

You must understand, squint, that once one places "free will" above God's sovereignty, any and everything is a euphemism for losing salvation and perishing eternally. The concept of the hypothetical for instruction is completely discarded in favor of logically fallacious support for losing a salvation that Scripture said is secured by God Himself. There is no room for God's ability to bring about that which He purposes..He is left wholly at the mercy of man's will.

God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.

 

[sawdust]

It is only if it is. While true of the one reborn; imputation, it is not an automatic impartation which is something the believer must embark upon after being saved and reborn. Ask yourself the question, what happens if I don't want to work out my salvation? Not to go forward is to go backward.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

peace

 

[AndOne]

There have been those here to hold to it; and it is "Facet #1" of OSAS.

Ironically, Calvinists and ES proponents (the other two facets), have been known to say things like "Backslidden, but still saved".

And I perceive that "backslidden", means "walking in sin"; how can that be saved?

I think Calvinists wouldn't adhere to the statement "Backslidden, but still saved" - particularly if "walking in sin" refers to continual willfull unrepentent sinning. We would say that such a person was never saved to begin with.

 

[Ormly]

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

peace

You don't?? Maybe try answering my question.

 

[Ormly]

I think Calvinists wouldn't adhere to the statement "Backslidden, but still saved" - particularly if "walking in sin" refers to continual willfull unrepentent sinning. We would say that such a person was never saved to begin with.

Then it is that your religion is a fatalistic religion. One can never know he is saved.

 

[sawdust]

God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.

You're making a joke right? Playing a devil's advocate role or something?

Either that or I just walked into a horror movie.

 

[sawdust]

You don't?? Maybe try answering my question.

No. I don't want to. (pout)

Make me ... if your will is so powerful!

 

[nobdysfool]

God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.

Yeah, that solves all those problematic passages where God actually demands something from man, doesn't it?

That has to stand as one of the most blatantly unbiblical statements I've ever seen anyone make on this forum. the only good thing i can say about it, is at least you're honest about it, which is more than can be said for some on this forum.

God's conversation with Job comes to mind, beginning with God's opening line:

Job 38:1-7 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, (2) Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (3) Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. (4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? (6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; (7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

That doesn't read to me as though God sublimates His Will to the will of man.

If you think that your will can trump, stop, or alter the Will of God, then you are seriously delusional.