Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[squint]

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

I am not aware of any scripture in the New Testament that names ANY person as going to be burned alive forever. Not a single named person is given as an example of this supposed fact.

One can certainly fall back to being a SLAVE of darkness while in this present life. That is not unusual at all. But that does NOT mean in any way that person is then going to subsequently FRY ALIVE FOREVER.

They are UNsaved when they become again VICTIMS of darkness. These are not UNsaved from God who loves us ALL and the fallen ones would be far better served by us to LOVE THEM rather than trying to bring THREATS into heads. The ol' BELIEVE OR ELSE Gospel.

 

[Ormly]

I am not aware of any scripture in the New Testament that names ANY person as going to be burned alive forever. Not a single named person is given as an example of this supposed fact.

Thats because they are all lumped together and sometimes go by the name, "wicked" or "ungodly".

 

[sawdust]

Please consider the reality that "non-fellowship-with-God", that "undisciplined" and "unconfessed sin", and that "quenched Spirit", by definition all mean "not saved".

How can any of those things apply to unbelievers.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" (Rev.3:20)

Spoken to believers.

"for God has not given us a spirit of fear but power, love and self-discipline" (2Tim.1:7)

Spoken to believers.

"If we confess our sin ... (1Jn.1:9)

Spoken to believers.

Do not quench the Spirit. (1Thess.5:18)

Spoken to believers.

None of these things would have any meaning unless one is saved. They have no application unless one is saved.

The most important thing I wish to teach here, is that "salvation, is fellowship with God". One who believes in Jesus, fellowships with the Son, the Father, and the Spirit. One who does not fellowship, does not really believe.

One who does not continue in fellowship is not one who does not believe in Christ but rather one who does not grow in the knowledge of Christ. There is more to Christ than the fact that He died for our sins. This is only the fact of first importance.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 1Cor.15:3

When it comes to unbelievers the Lord has but three words to say:

Wrong, Right and Judgement.

When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: Jn.16:8

There is no word of fellowship or disciplne or unconfessed sin or quenching the Spirit. Until a person recognises and accepts those first three words they are not ready for the Gospel. Peter's first sermon in Acts is a great example of these dynamics at work. The people listening recognise they are wrong, that God is right and they must be judged ergo they cry out.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Acts 2:37

Solution? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. On that day about 3,000 souls were saved. Now they can be instructed in fellowship, discipline, confession of sin and how not to quench the Spirit.

A "new creature", walks in sin??? One who walks in sin, is not a believer. True belief ABIDES in Jesus, and Jesus abides in the believer (participating in his life). Jesus does not abide in sin.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that a new creature can walk in sin? Have you not read the letter to the Laodiceans?

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Rev.3:19

This is "phileo" love, brotherly love. Christ can only call one brother if they are a son of God. These are believers and they are saved but they are most definately not walking in fellowship with the Lord. By your reckoning they are not saved.

The difference is that I perceive we are "in His garden, by faith"; and I perceive passages like Rom11:21-23 to say "if we do not continue in faith, we will be cut off".

I know you do but you also seem to think being "cut off" or "wandering away" or similar terms the scriptures use automatically means a one way ticket to hell.

To a believer the lake of fire is a non-issue. Sin takes one down into the grave (1st death). The death Christ died, the one from which Christ saves. Evil is what takes a person into the lake of fire. Evil is the rejection of truth. You cannot believe in Christ and reject the truth at the sme time. To be a believer means you have accepted at least the truth of "first importance" and therfore are saved.

"If anone ENTERS through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9 We walked into Him. One of the biggest misunderstandings of Scripture is the idea that "man is passive in his salvation, and God is active" --- it's completely the other way. In Matt7:24-27, man ACTS (believes). In Heb11:6, God RECEIVES (men who come to Him BY faith).

You might need to read my analogy again. I never said man does absolutely nothing. I said he believes but if God did not act we could sit there exercising our will till the cows come home and it will not produce salvation. It is only because the Lord is faithful and acts according to His word that we end up saved not because we make a choice.

Please consider the words of Heb12:7-9, if WE are without God's discipline, then we are NOT sons but illegitimate. 1Jn5:11-13 says "he who has the Son, has the eternal life." What if "having-the-Son", is a constant choice, by faith?

Not sure why you said this in relation to what I said. I agree with you. But what sort of children need discipline? Good kids doing the right thing or bad kids doing the wrong thing?

Having the Son is not a constant choice. That is just one choice one time and the Lord delivers on His promise. But if one wants to "grow up" into the full stature of the Son then that is a constant choice.

peace

 

[squint]

Thats because they are all lumped together and sometimes go by the name, "wicked" or "ungodly".

You know the drill Ormly. Do you have any wickedness in you? Do you have any ungodliness in you?

The eternal loss of salvation was NEVER presented in the New Testament by ONE NAMED EXAMPLE of such a thing. It is therefore a fabrication of men under the infleunces of what they themselves also carry.

 

[sawdust]

Which verse/passage?? They are both dealing with believers.

The Luke passage. It is speaking of an unbeliever. The man is a demoniac. There is no suggestion of the unclean spirit being cast out, it only says he (the demon) goes out. The demon most probably got bored and figured he would go out for a drink. Seems it turned out none of the pubs had any beer. (arid places)

peace

 

[Ben johnson]

I am not for sure about this one, though I might understand someone pointing to Judas if they believe that he is in hell.

Hi, Anthony. Most people (especially "OSAS") assert "Judas was never really saved". But if we connect John15:15 ("I chose you [to be Disciples], and ordained you bear fruit and your fruit remain"), with John6:67 ("I chose all twelve of you") --- then clearly Jesus chose Judas to bear fruit that remains.

Judas messed up.

I don't believe that salvation can ever be lost because, frankly, that's the position that the Bible supports. Romans 8:28-30 for example: That chain is unbreakable. The passage may have to be mutilated or ignored for someone to still believe in conditional salvation after coming across those verses.

Not at all; the "predestination", is for "those who love God", and they're predestined to be "Christlike". Rom9:11-21 can be explained, as can Eph1:4-5; but there are several passages that cannot be explained in a "OSAS" paradigm.

However, I am ignorant of their interpretation so perhaps someone could enlighten us.

Well, I was hoping the thread would be directed towards specific passages that speak of "falling from true salvation". Either policy, or conspicuous example...

I have read that when Jesus says "no one can pluck them out of my hand" in John that this means that nobody outside of the own person can do it. The saved person may pluck himself out of Christ's hand, in other words.

Please understand that "pluck", is "harpazo" (the exact same word as "caught-up" or "raptured" in 1Thess4:17) --- it means "sieze/remove forcibly". Salvation becoming forfeit, is by unbelief, which consequence from successful deception.

And many passages speak of "evil men, striving to deceive believers".

But this is refuted by Paul at the end of Romans 8:38-38, which say: (NASB from biblegateway.com) "38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Emphasis mine). Do you see what Paul is saying here? The "us" Paul refers to here are Christians (or so it seems) and he tells us that there is not "anything else in all creation" that can separate us. Aren't we apart of His creation?

I believe that God loves, and continues to love, even those who perish.

But on the subject of "separation" --- here is an excellent opportunity to discuss an incident.

The entire letter to Galatia, is warning against "apostasy". Written specifically to:
Those begun in the Spirit (3:3)
Those who were running well, and obeying the truth (5:7)
Those who knew God, and were known BY Him (4:9

BUT --- they turned again to LAW, forsaking grace (5:1)
Turned back to weak/worthless things (4:9)
HINDERED from obeying the truth (5:7)

The clincher, is 5:4:
"You who are seeking to be justified by law, you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE".

Epo-katargeo really means "severed/become-no-effect", and "ekpipto-charis" really means "fallen from grace".

The only "OSAS" defense, is to assert "they were never REALLY saved to BEGIN with (had to be; see above description) --- or to say "this is only fatherly advice, it's words by which God KEEPS the listeners SAVED". ("effective means")

Reads to me like a real possibility...

 

[Ben johnson]

What you were suggesting is antinomianism. I don't believe that, no Calvinist I know believes that antinomianism is correct or biblical. Most if not all other Christians do not believe it either, except for a few off-brands. But they don't establish the norm.

There have been those here to hold to it; and it is "Facet #1" of OSAS.

Ironically, Calvinists and ES proponents (the other two facets), have been known to say things like "Backslidden, but still saved".

And I perceive that "backslidden", means "walking in sin"; how can that be saved?

 

[Ben johnson]

How can any of those things apply to unbelievers.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" (Rev.3:20)

Spoken to believers.

Hi, Sawdust. Are you so sure they are "believers"? They are "lukewarm" --- He will spew (vomit) them from his mouth. They need clothes, salve, and godly wealth; doesn't sound to me like they're "still saved".

(Excellent citation, though --- great job!)

"for God has not given us a spirit of fear but power, love and self-discipline" (2Tim.1:7)

Spoken to believers.

I agree with you on this.

"If we confess our sin ... (1Jn.1:9)

Spoken to believers.

But look at the context --- we can walk in sin and darkness.

Do not quench the Spirit. (1Thess.5:18)

Spoken to believers.

If we DO "quench the Spirit", or "grieve the Spirit" (Eph4:30), will He remain in us? Look at the man in Heb10:29, who once was sanctified --- but now he "insults the Spirit". He isn't saved...

One who does not continue in fellowship is not one who does not believe in Christ but rather one who does not grow in the knowledge of Christ. There is more to Christ than the fact that He died for our sins. This is only the fact of first importance.

And what if someone does NOT grow? "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion." If we don't grow, we're not really believing/following Him, are we?

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 1Cor.15:3

When it comes to unbelievers the Lord has but three words to say:

Wrong, Right and Judgement.

When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: Jn.16:8

There is no word of fellowship or disciplne or unconfessed sin or quenching the Spirit. Until a person recognises and accepts those first three words they are not ready for the Gospel. Peter's first sermon in Acts is a great example of these dynamics at work. The people listening recognise they are wrong, that God is right and they must be judged ergo they cry out.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Acts 2:37

Solution? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. On that day about 3,000 souls were saved. Now they can be instructed in fellowship, discipline, confession of sin and how not to quench the Spirit.

There are instances of people "professing belief, but not really being saved". Matt7:21-23 is one; Rev2:14-22 is another (as you eloquently cited!). And I think the listeners in Heb5-6, were being given a choice --- "grow up!"

Why do you find it so hard to believe that a new creature can walk in sin? Have you not read the letter to the Laodiceans?

Because of passages like Rom6; we are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to Christ. Jesus Himself says (John8), "He who practices sin, is a slave to sin; so when the Son sets him free, he will be free indeed."

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Rev.3:19

EXACTLY! Repent! And look at what happens if we "turn away from God" (Heb12:25), and "refuse His discipline" (Heb12:7-9).

I know you do but you also seem to think being "cut off" or "wandering away" or similar terms the scriptures use automatically means a one way ticket to hell.

Not "one-way" --- places like Rom11:21-23, clearly say that "if they return to belief they will be grafted in again".

To a believer the lake of fire is a non-issue. Sin takes one down into the grave (1st death). The death Christ died, the one from which Christ saves. Evil is what takes a person into the lake of fire. Evil is the rejection of truth. You cannot believe in Christ and reject the truth at the sme time. To be a believer means you have accepted at least the truth of "first importance" and therfore are saved.

Mere "belief", does not save (James2:19); only the belief that receives the indwelling Lord and Spirit (and therefore exhibits radical change), saves.

You might need to read my analogy again. I never said man does absolutely nothing. I said he believes but if God did not act we could sit there exercising our will till the cows come home and it will not produce salvation. It is only because the Lord is faithful and acts according to His word that we end up saved not because we make a choice.

The question remains --- does God RECEIVE our choice, or does He CAUSE it.

He is not causal in our salvation; it is a gift, but it is up to us to receive it.

Having the Son is not a constant choice. That is just one choice one time and the Lord delivers on His promise. But if one wants to "grow up" into the full stature of the Son then that is a constant choice.

Look at 2Jn1:7-9; if we can "go too far and not abide in Christ's teachings (so as to not have God)", then it does lean towards "constant choice", doesn't it?

 

[Ben johnson]

I am not aware of any scripture in the New Testament that names ANY person as going to be burned alive forever. Not a single named person is given as an example of this supposed fact.

Hi, "Squint". Jesus says in Matt7:21, "Not everyone shall inherit the kingdom of God (but only those who do His will)."

One can certainly fall back to being a SLAVE of darkness while in this present life. That is not unusual at all. But that does NOT mean in any way that person is then going to subsequently FRY ALIVE FOREVER.

If they die while a "slave of darkness", how then will the spend eternity with "The Light"?

They are UNsaved when they become again VICTIMS of darkness. These are not UNsaved from God who loves us ALL and the fallen ones would be far better served by us to LOVE THEM rather than trying to bring THREATS into heads. The ol' BELIEVE OR ELSE Gospel.

God lobes the FALLEN-victims-of-DARKNESS?

Then when Jesus returns and separates us, what will be the difference between "walking-in-darkness-GOATS", and "walking-in-darkness-SHEEP"?

 

[AnthonyE1778]

No, it doesn't. That would mean our freewill has been taken from us making endurance unnecessary. For instance, this is a race we run, why, if you are correct? Why bother? I don't have to run if I don't feel like it, right, nothing can separate me from Christ. In fact, I can even run in the opposite direction and still be OK, right?

There are answers to this, but I take it to mean that you believe that one can lose his/her salvation? Incidentally, if you do, it can only make salvation dependant upon a human work right? If not, how so?

 

[Ben johnson]

Why do you find it so hard to believe that a new creature can walk in sin? Have you not read the letter to the Laodiceans?

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Rev.3:19

For a moment, I was almost jealous; I would love to read Paul's letter to Laodicea (spoken of in Col4:16). There's a proposed letter on the internet, but it's clearly fake.

Then I realized you were talking about what you quoted, from Rev3:19. But he's asking them to repent, there's no guarantee they will.

Look also at Rev2:1-7 --- here is a letter to Ephesus. Charging them with "losing their first love." He warns, "repent and do the deeds you did at first, or I will remove your lampstand."

God is not deciding their repentance; He warns of the true consequence of "leaving first-love", removal.

 

[Ben johnson]

The eternal loss of salvation was NEVER presented in the New Testament by ONE NAMED EXAMPLE of such a thing. It is therefore a fabrication of men under the infleunces of what they themselves also carry.

Please consider Matt23:13-15; first, Jesus refers to those who "ARE ENTERING". Saying:
"Woe to you, lawyers and Pharisees --- not only to you not enter in to the kingdom of Heaven, but those who ARE ENTERING, you STOP; you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men. You travel about ...seeking one to make a proselyte; and when you find him, you make him twice a child of Hell as you are."

Now, "are entering", means "believing-savingly". How could it not? And "stopped/shut-off", means what it says.

Forever? "Twice-child-of-Hell" sure sounds like it, doesn't it?

 

[sawdust]

IPlease explain how someone who is "wandered away from the faith", whose sins are "uncovered", can die in his sins and still enter Heaven? I don't mean to be disrespectful, just want to understand how you see it.

I'll just answer this bit for now.

A believer can wander away from the faith because there is a whole range of doctrine that goes into making up the faith. That Christ died for our sins is the first and most important doctrine of the faith.

So a believer can believe this yet not believe the doctrine of eternal security (for example). Now there are only two basic reasons why a believer does not believe the latter or any further doctrine.
1. He has never been taught it.
2. He was taught it, but chose not to believe it.

Christ died for all sin, for all men, for all time. The "covering" (forgiveness) of those sins are IN Christ. An unbeliever is not IN Christ therfore knows no forgiveness (and never will unless he believes).

The believer on the other hand is placed in Christ. What a new believer doesn't have at this stage is the whole realm of doctrine. He has the gospel however which, is why he is saved, but he is like a naked man standing in the house of God. He needs to be clothed (in his soul) with the Word of God if he is to know, in practice, the power of his salvation (including the covering of his sins).

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. Jn.17:17

Christ is the "all things". Positionally every believer has the "all things" that is Christ. However these things must be transferred to the believer in order for them to become his own possession. There are two power options for this transference to take effect within a believers life.

1. The filling of the Holy Spirit.

This is the sphere of God's power or we can say the control area (God's control area that is) in a believers life.

The other option is:

2. The word of God in the believer's soul. (epignosis)

If you hear the truth but don't believe it? That knowledge remains as "gnosis" and does not sanctify the soul. If you hear it and believe it, the grace of God transforms that gnosis into epignosis. It is this faith which saves you. Faith is assurance and conviction because it is the word of God (alive and powerful) at work in your soul.

The reason they are options is because every time we sin we lose the filling of the Spirit and the only way to be back in the Lord's control is to confess. (1Jn.1:9) The "if" is a third class condition in that passage, "maybe we will, maybe we won't confess", the choice is ours. If we do, God is faithful and forgives us. We are brought back into the position where all our sins are forgiven not just positionally but also experentially.

As long as we remain outside the filling of the Spirit we do not have the forgiveness of whatever sin we committed to get there nor for any sins we commit while remaining there. We are in effect "uncovered".

I'm going to have to leave it there for now. I'll get back to you on the rest. There are some things I want to check up on.

peace

 

[squint]

Please consider Matt23:13-15; first, Jesus refers to those who "ARE ENTERING". Saying:
"Woe to you, lawyers and Pharisees --- not only to you not enter in to the kingdom of Heaven, but those who ARE ENTERING, you STOP; you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men. You travel about ...seeking one to make a proselyte; and when you find him, you make him twice a child of Hell as you are."

Now, "are entering", means "believing-savingly". How could it not? And "stopped/shut-off", means what it says.

You know my sightings/citings on these matters.

Mankind is NOT alone in the flesh. If you missed that part in the New Testament what can I say? It's a fact that's written about on nearly every page of the Gospels.

Jesus spoke TO THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL in the Pharisees...

And my original statement still stands. There is not one single named believer in the entirety of the New Testament who is given as an example of what you promote. A man CAN be taken captive BY THE DEVIL in this life and we have many example of THAT, and STILL retain their salvation.

Forever? "Twice-child-of-Hell" sure sounds like it, doesn't it?

We could sure speculate on who the double sons of hell are, but I for one do NOT believe these are my fellow man. We have literally THOUSANDS of open examples of SATAN and DEVILS being IN mankind and being SPOKEN TO in MANKIND. So why neglect that FACT?

Satan spoke through Apostles...like PETER. Satan ENTERED Judas. This fact MUST come to the table of RIGHT JUDGMENTS. IF this fact is NOT rendered, any conclusion is likely a false one.

We know also that there are DOCTRINES OF DEVILS.

I consider the presentation of promoting fallen believers in Christ who have been TAKEN CAPTIVE by the DEVIL to be then BURNED ALIVE FOREVER IN FIRE to be one of those doctrines. Nothing personal Ben. I blame it on the DEVILS particularly when we have exactly ZERO "NAMED" examples of what you present happening to believers.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Ormly]

You know the drill Ormly. Do you have any wickedness in you? Do you have any ungodliness in you?

Yes and I also have an advocate with the Father who pleads my case. Can that be said for the unrepentent sinner?

The eternal loss of salvation was NEVER presented in the New Testament by ONE NAMED EXAMPLE of such a thing. It is therefore a fabrication of men under the infleunces of what they themselves also carry.

May I suggest you understanding is a fabrication under the influence of your own religious bent?

 

[squint]

Yes and I also have an advocate with the Father who pleads my case. Can that be said for the unrepentent sinner?

Did you stop sinning when you were saved?

May I suggest you understanding is a fabrication under the influence of your own religious bent?

Is there supposed to be some point attached to that statement other than the "typical" baseless nonspecific nonsense?

 

[MarkEvan]

Why do you find it so hard to believe that a new creature can walk in sin? Have you not read the letter to the Laodiceans?

1 John 1

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Would you not call walking in sin......walking in darkness?

 

[nobdysfool]

1 John 1







Would you not call walking in sin......walking in darkness?

Which among you is without sin? Which of you has never sinned since you were born again?

 

[Ormly]

Did you stop sinning when you were saved?

Nope. That is why I make the distinction between being saved and being born again. I don't believe I was born again. My love for God wasn't great enough for me to overcome my "self". I wrote the book on "backsliding". When I underswtood what being born again meant, I cried out to God and got real serious about my life..

May I suggest your understanding is a fabrication under the influence of your own religious bent?

Is there supposed to be some point attached to that statement other than the "typical" baseless nonspecific nonsense?

Yes. I gave it in response to yours.

 

[squint]

Nope. That is why I make the distinction between being saved and being born again. I don't believe I was born again. My love for God wasn't great enough for me to overcome my "self". I wrote the book on "backsliding". When I underswtood what being born again meant, I cried out to God and got real serious about my life..

No one should fault any other for their travails. If you were lost, you were lost to slaveship to EVIL. I don't "blame and accuse" my fellow man for the workings of EVIL in them.

Yes. I gave it in response to yours.

Reduction apart from factual depiction.