Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Sawdust,

Just curious on this comment.....


Is not a promise made an obligation?
What do you have that cannot be lost?

How can you know?

Have you ever lost your salvation, and got it back again?

How does one know he has lost his salvation?



.

 

[Ormly]

How can you know?

Have you ever lost your salvation, and got it back again?

How does one know he has lost his salvation?



.

How does one know he has it?

 

[Ormly]

Sawdust:

Ben, you do not get to choose whether you receive discipline or not if you belong to God. You will be disciplined, fullstop.... there is no escape from discipline if you are a believer. What you get to choose is whether you will learn from it or not. The unbeliever is not disciplined at all. To speak of discipline in respect to an unbeliever is lunacy. It is part of the reason societies breakdown when they ignore God because He is not correcting them.

Do you know Him well enough that you would even recognize to consider it to be HIS discipline. I'll lay you odds most would believe it was Satan attacking them.

 

[GenemZ]

How does one know he has it?

You do not know? You never knew you were saved?

That may explain the problem here we are having in communication.

Its a personal experience, so it will not be a 1 + 2 = 3, answer. But the following passage lays down the principle be which we are made able to know we are saved.

Romans 8:15 (New International Version)
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
​

Its the Holy Spirit in us that causes us to bear witness to our salvation. Our sense of family with God. I guess if someone observes saved people around him, and learns to make the right noises? He can learn to fit in with the saved crowd to an extent.

How the Lord showed me I am saved was very personal and unique to my being. Others have had that special moment of clarity that happened in a way unique to them selves. But, we all know we are saved.

You do not?




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[Ben johnson]

Ben, you do not get to choose whether you receive discipline or not if you belong to God. You will be disciplined, fullstop.... there is no escape from discipline if you are a believer.

"If you are a believer". There's the rub --- do we have a choice to be a "believer"? Overwhelmingly, yes. From start to finish.

Tell me something --- when Paul (he wrote Hebrews) says "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live?" --- was he conveying a choice? And can "live" mean something other than "eternally"?

What you get to choose is whether you will learn from it or not. The unbeliever is not disciplined at all. To speak of discipline in respect to an unbeliever is lunacy. It is part of the reason societies breakdown when they ignore God because He is not correcting them.

You are correct. "Undisciplined", is "unbelieving"; there is not one without the other. So too "submitting to God's discipline", and "believing".

That's the point of what the writer is trying to make. It is not a question of whether the believers he is speaking to will or will not receive discipline, it is guaranteed they will because they are children of God.

If you are without discipline (of which all have become partakers), then you are illegitimate and not sons. We had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, and live?" Tell me how that's not conveying a "choice to receive His discipline (and live eternally), or to REFUSE His discipline and not be His sons but be illegitimate."

How is it not?

Therefore, seeing as you will be disciplined, be smart and wise up to yourself and learn from it when it comes your way.

What if you don't?

You had to go and do it, didn't you. I told you not to change the subject but you just had to go and slip "wrath" in there. There is no mention of wrath. The non-escape is from discipline. Try reading the passage without your pre-conceived ideas, as if it was the first time you have ever read it.

If one can "turn away from God", then there's only wrath for him.

Surely you accept that there is no turned-away-from-God-SAVED" position...

"We must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" How can anyone "spin" that into "you cannot drift away from salvation"? Impossible.

The same way you can spin things into saying things that are not written there in first the place. I would hate to be the one who lives within your soul. It's like playing leap frog in a mine field.

You did not answer Heb2:1-3; what's your answer? How do you understand it?

Yes salvation is being God's adopted child which is why you will be disciplined. You can't refuse discipline. It will happen. The only thing you can refuse is to learn from it.

Then tell me how you understand verse 9?

You see nothing of what I'm saying which is why you come up with such silly notions.

You said "how shall we escape if we turn away from Him-who-warns-from-Heaven", means "we cannot turn away from His discipline". How does it mean that?

No it doesn't Ben. Only one position makes sense to you. And that is the problem when we think we know what scripture says and are not willing to learn that it might be different from what we first thought.

Teach me; tell me how you perceive verses 8-9.

No, discipline cannot be refused. The only thing that can be refused is learning from it when it comes.

If one refuses to learn from discipline, then how is that discipline "not refused"?

Rubbish!

Do you believe there is such a thing as an "undisciplined believer"?

I can deny it, I did deny it. I guess you were wrong on that score.

I never said God caused us to be dead to sin. I said He reckons it as so and the reason is because you have been baptised into Christ's death. Immersed Ben, so when the Lord looks at you, He does not see "Ben the sinner", He sees Christ the sinless One. Ben the sinner is hidden away "in Christ".

Where is "repentance" in that?

And I have never said it did. You make assumption after assupmtion about what I hold true, according to the teaching I have received. I could explain it further but I am not of a mind to at the moment.

Then just help me to understand what verses 8-9 are saying to you; and if you perceive there is such a thing as a "not-learned-from-discipline-BELIEVER"

This is where I think the difference between you and I cuts to the chase. You walk, because you think you are under obligation, afraid you will lose what you have.

Afraid? "There is no fear in love, perfect love casts out fear; he who fears is not perfected in love." 1Jn4:18

"I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him.
Now --- guard, by the Holy Spirit that indwells us, the treasure entrusted to you." 2Tim1:14-16

I walk, because I know what I have in Christ can never be lost and it is the greatest privlege one can receive.

Then how do you explain Col2:6-8?
"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, having firmly been rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, jmust as you were instructed and overflowing with grattitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the traditions of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Tell me, Sawdust --- what is Paul saying?
That "we walk BECAUSE we cannot be lost"?
Or "walk SO THAT you're not lost"?

It is both Ben. I have what I have in Christ because God declared that is where salvation and all that pertains to salvation will be.

It can't be "both"; an obligation is something we SHOULD do, not something we cannot avoid.

How much will be transferred to me as my own possession of the "all things" that Christ is, will depend upon my own will in the way I walk in this new life I have been given.

Please tell me what kind of walk will "lose you Christ's posessions"?

What is it that removes "heavenly rewards", but not "salvation itself"? What do you have to do to lose some? (Really hope you ansswer this...)

Well, you seem to be doing a pretty good job.

It's up to you to show me how.

Ben, if unbelievers are not disciplined (and they are not), how can these "who turn away from God" be unbelievers because the writer is saying they most definitely won't escape discipline? You make no sense.

He doesn't say that anyone won't escape discipline. He says "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

Being subject to His discipline, is fully a choice. You're right, those WHO believe, WILL be subject; but if "undiscipline" is a choice, then unbelief is the same choice.

In Heb4:11, just after speaking of how the Israelites failed to enter the Promised land because of disobedience/unbelief, he says: "See that you don't FALL and fail to enter God's rest by IMITATING their unbelief and disobedience."

Did the Israelites refuse God's discipline? Yes.
Are we warned not to IMITATE their refusal?

YES!

Tell me how I'm mis-interpreting it.

 

[Ormly]

You do not know? You never knew you were saved?

That may explain the problem here we are having in communication.

My question to you doesn't explain anything. I didn't ask that you ask me; to asume I don't know. I asked you how you or anyone knows beyond a doubt they are saved? Now, what is that you wish to say?
/

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

My questions?....
Is not a promise made an obligation?
What do you have that cannot be lost?
Your reply......
How can you know?
Have you ever lost your salvation, and got it back again?
How does one know he has lost his salvation?

Two simply questions and you did not, or cannot answer them?
Do you understand the questions?

 

[GenemZ]

My question to you doesn't explain anything. I didn't ask that you ask me; to asume I don't know. I asked you how you or anyone knows beyond a doubt they are saved? Now, what is that you wish to say?
/

I guess that's your way of avoiding the question. Not surprised.

Just the same.. I answered you.

Romans 8:15 (New International Version)
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."






.
​

 

[sawdust]

Sawdust,

Just curious on this comment.....


Is not a promise made an obligation?
What do you have that cannot be lost?

A promise made (in the knowledge it can be kept to the full) is a joy to the one making the promise. Therefore, ought it not be a joy to the one who receives such promise?

The Lord Jesus did not do what He did so that He could be in your (or anyone's) debt. He did it for the "joy set before Him".

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb.12:2

What do I have? I have a list of 40 things the Lord gave me the moment I beleived in Jesus as my personal Saviour. It is not on this computer but if you are willing to be patient a few days, I will try to find it and post it for you.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Do you know Him well enough that you would even recognize to consider it to be HIS discipline. I'll lay you odds most would believe it was Satan attacking them.

It is nice to finally find something we can both agree on.

Yes, most Christians like to "blame it on the devil" when it comes to their suffering when in reality, it is because of their own bad decisions and/or ignorance of God's word.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

How does one know he has it?

So? Why do you try to tell us we can lose what you say you can not know you have?????


.

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

My questions....Is not a promise made an obligation?
What do you have that cannot be lost?
Your reply....
A promise made (in the knowledge it can be kept to the full) is a joy to the one making the promise. Therefore, ought it not be a joy to the one who receives such promise?

Still have not answered the question. Let's try a third time......

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb.12:2

Except we have two words here that are incorrect from the Greek. author is model and perfector is example. That is what Christ is for us. He set a very high standard, model for us to follow.

What do I have? I have a list of 40 things the Lord gave me the moment I beleived in Jesus as my personal Saviour. It is not on this computer but if you are willing to be patient a few days, I will try to find it and post it for you

I would be interested, but that is not the topic or the point of this discussion. The point is what have you promised to Him. Are you going to keep YOUR promises? That is salvation, enduring faith, growing in faith. God does not do it for you. You were created then saved just so you could do the work for which you were created to do. I don't think He will take it from you.

 

[sawdust]

Sawdust,


Still have not answered the question. Let's try a third time......

I did give an answer, you're just too blind to see what it was.

Except we have two words here that are incorrect from the Greek. author is model and perfector is example. That is what Christ is for us. He set a very high standard, model for us to follow.

I quoted what I quoted to show you that Christ went to the Cross, not because He felt under obligation to the Father to do so, but because the promises of the Father that were set before Him were a joy to Him. The reason they were a joy to Him is because they were a joy to the Father to give them to Christ.

I would be interested, but that is not the topic or the point of this discussion.

Right. Christ gives you salvation but that is not relevant to a thread about losing salvation. Go figure.

The point is what have you promised to Him. Are you going to keep YOUR promises? That is salvation, enduring faith, growing in faith. God does not do it for you. You were created then saved just so you could do the work for which you were created to do. I don't think He will take it from you.

You want to make your promises to God the point. As I have explained, I make no promises to God because I cannot guarantee I will keep them. Instead, I place my faith in His promises because I know He doesn't fail.

I am beginning to think you must be a very short person because everything seems to go straight over your head.

good day to you.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Right. Christ gives you salvation but that is not relevant to a thread about losing salvation. Go figure.

because you don't even understand there is a difference. The next statement you make is most telling.

You want to make your promises to God the point. As I have explained, I make no promises to God because I cannot guarantee I will keep them. Instead, I place my faith in His promises because I know He doesn't fail.

That is quite obvious you made no promises. Meaning you made no committment to Christ. That is what the salvation of ones personal soul is all about. It has very little to do with the promises of Christ. they are great, necessary, but they are HIS PROMISES to us. We are in a relational covenant. It is a mutual relationship. You have made promises to Him in order to even enter into this covenant. Obviously, if you have not made them, you have not entered and are not being saved.
Placing your faith without confirming that faith is what the devil can do as well. You will be judged on what YOU do, not what Christ or God did on your behalf.
You have missed both the reason why God created you in the first place, then went to the Cross to save you from an unjust condemnation.
You have missed the whole intent of the NT Gospel and the whole purpose of our very existance.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

because you don't even understand there is a difference. The next statement you make is most telling.

That is quite obvious you made no promises. Meaning you made no committment to Christ. That is what the salvation of ones personal soul is all about. It has very little to do with the promises of Christ. they are great, necessary, but they are HIS PROMISES to us. We are in a relational covenant. It is a mutual relationship. You have made promises to Him in order to even enter into this covenant. Obviously, if you have not made them, you have not entered and are not being saved.
Placing your faith without confirming that faith is what the devil can do as well. You will be judged on what YOU do, not what Christ or God did on your behalf.
You have missed both the reason why God created you in the first place, then went to the Cross to save you from an unjust condemnation.
You have missed the whole intent of the NT Gospel and the whole purpose of our very existance.

I have a favor to ask...


Could you learn how to use the software, please? This posts makes it like you were quoting me, and I have no idea who that was you were quoting from.

To prevent this confusion? Learn how to use the software. When you do, the post you are quoting from will be automatically linked to be able to verify the context from which post you are quoting. That too, helps others to see that you have not altered the intent of what you quoted from.

Now... please find out who you were supposed to be quoting from? And, this time, leave the first part of the quote mark produced in. The one that contains a name and a number.

For example. In this post? My quote of what you said began with a bracket in front of the quote which looks like this ...

​

Then you can finish off the quote where you please by adding a regular trailing end-type of quote bracket.

Its been quite annoying when you keep failing to do this. For, one can not readily back track to the original post you are quoting from, to see the original context.



Thank you...



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[Ormly]

So? Why do you try to tell us we can lose what you say you can not know you have?????


.

I didn't say he can't know it, misrepresenter of words. I asked you how can one know. I want to know what you think. Perhaps you can't answer the question?

 

[sawdust]

This is the list of what we receive the moment we personally believe in Jesus as dying for our sin.

01. Imputed Righteousness..... Rom 4: 3-5
02. Justification.....Rom. 3: 24-30
03. Regeneration .....John 3: 1-12, Titus 3:5, Rom 8:16, 1 cor 2-14
04. Human Spirit.....Rom 8:16, 1 Cor 2:14
05. Imputed Everlasting Life.....John 5: 11-12
06. Baptism of the Holy Spirit.....Rom 8: 1-2, Rom 8: 38-39, 1 Cor 15:2, 1 Cor 12:13, John 5: 11-12
07. Propitiation.....Ex 25: 17-22, Heb 9:4, 1 John 2: 2
08. Reconciliation.....Rom 5:10, 2 Cor 5:18-19
09. Redemption.....1 peter 1: 18-19
10. Forgiveness.....Isaiah 43: 25, Isaiah 44:22, Eph 1: 7, Col 1: 14
11. Removal of Condemnation.....John 3:18, Rom 8: 1-3
12. Removal of Domination of the Old Sin Nature.....Rom 6:6-12
13. Removal of Satan's Power.....Col 1: 12-13, 1 John 5: 19, Eph 6:11-12, Eph 2: 1-2, Gal 1: 12-13
14. Freedom from the Penalty of the Mosaic Law.....Rom 3: 8, Rom 8:2, Gal 3: 10-13
15. Identification with Jesus Christ.....Rom 6: 3-12, Gal 2: 20,
16. Indwelling of God the Father.....John 14: 23, Eph 4:6, John 14: 23
17. Indwelling of Jesus Christ.....John 14: 20, Rom 8: 10, 2 Cor 5: 3, Col 1: 27
18. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.....1 Cor 6: 19-20, Math 3: 11, John 14: 7, Rom 5: 5, Rom 8:9, Gal 3:2
19. Sealing of your Salvation.....Eph 4: 30, Tim 2: 19, Eph 1: 13
20. Circumcision of the Soul.....1 Cor 7: 17-24, Jer 4: 4, Rom 2: 29, Deut 10: 16-17
21. Unseen Assets.....Eph 1: 2-6
22. Judgement of Sins.....1 Pet 2: 24, Rom 4: 251 John 1: 9
23. Royal Adoption.....Rom 8: 15, Rom 8: 23
24. Eternal Relationship to God.....Eph 2: 13, James 4: 8, Heb 10: 25
25. We are on the Rock Jesus Christ.....2 Cor 1: 21; 2, Cor 3: 11, Eph 2: 26.
26. We are a Gift to Christ.....John 17: 5, John 17: 11-12, John 17: 20, John 10: 29
27. Royal Priesthood.....Peter 2: 5, Peter 2: 9, Rev 1: 6
28. We are a Chosen Generation.....1 Peter 2: 9, Titus 2: 14
29. Access to God.....Eph 2: 18, Rom 5: 2, Heb 4: 14, Heb 10: 19-20
30. We are under God's Care.....Eph 2: 4, Eph 5: 2, 31.
31. We are His Inheritance.....Eph 1: 18
32. We Inherit Christ's Eternal Future.....1 Pet 1: 14, Eph 4: 14, Col 3: 24, Heb 9: 15
33. We have a Heavenly Partnership and Association.....Col 3: 4, 1 John 5: 11-12, Eph 2:6, 1 Cor 1: 9, 1 Cor 3: 9, 2 Cor 3: 3, 2 Cor 3: 6, 2 Cor 5: 20, @ cor 6: 4
34. We Become Heavenly Citizens.....Eph 2: 19, Phill 3: 20-21
35. We Become Members of the Royal Family of God....Eph 2: 19, Eph 3: 5, Gal 6: 10
36. We are the Light in the Lord.....Eph 5: 8, Thess 5: 4
37. We are United to the Trinity.....1 Cor 12: 13, John 15: 5, Eph 2: 19, Eph 2: 22, Eph 5: 25-27, 1 Peter 2: 5-9
38. We are Glorified.....Rom 8: 30
39. We are Complete in Him.....Col 2: 10
40. We Recieve a Guardian Angel.....Heb 1: 14


peace

 

[sawdust]

"If you are a believer". There's the rub --- do we have a choice to be a "believer"? Overwhelmingly, yes. From start to finish.

Tell me something --- when Paul (he wrote Hebrews) says "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live?" --- was he conveying a choice? And can "live" mean something other than "eternally"?
You are correct. "Undisciplined", is "unbelieving"; there is not one without the other. So too "submitting to God's discipline", and "believing".
If you are without discipline (of which all have become partakers), then you are illegitimate and not sons. We had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, and live?" Tell me how that's not conveying a "choice to receive His discipline (and live eternally), or to REFUSE His discipline and not be His sons but be illegitimate."

How is it not? What if you don't?
If one can "turn away from God", then there's only wrath for him.

Surely you accept that there is no turned-away-from-God-SAVED" position...
You did not answer Heb2:1-3; what's your answer? How do you understand it?
Then tell me how you understand verse 9?
You said "how shall we escape if we turn away from Him-who-warns-from-Heaven", means "we cannot turn away from His discipline". How does it mean that?
Teach me; tell me how you perceive verses 8-9.
If one refuses to learn from discipline, then how is that discipline "not refused"?
Do you believe there is such a thing as an "undisciplined believer"?

Where is "repentance" in that?
Then just help me to understand what verses 8-9 are saying to you; and if you perceive there is such a thing as a "not-learned-from-discipline-BELIEVER"
Afraid? "There is no fear in love, perfect love casts out fear; he who fears is not perfected in love." 1Jn4:18

"I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him.
Now --- guard, by the Holy Spirit that indwells us, the treasure entrusted to you." 2Tim1:14-16Then how do you explain Col2:6-8?
"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, having firmly been rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, jmust as you were instructed and overflowing with grattitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the traditions of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Tell me, Sawdust --- what is Paul saying?
That "we walk BECAUSE we cannot be lost"?
Or "walk SO THAT you're not lost"?
It can't be "both"; an obligation is something we SHOULD do, not something we cannot avoid. Please tell me what kind of walk will "lose you Christ's posessions"?

What is it that removes "heavenly rewards", but not "salvation itself"? What do you have to do to lose some? (Really hope you ansswer this...)
It's up to you to show me how.
He doesn't say that anyone won't escape discipline. He says "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

Being subject to His discipline, is fully a choice. You're right, those WHO believe, WILL be subject; but if "undiscipline" is a choice, then unbelief is the same choice.

In Heb4:11, just after speaking of how the Israelites failed to enter the Promised land because of disobedience/unbelief, he says: "See that you don't FALL and fail to enter God's rest by IMITATING their unbelief and disobedience."

Did the Israelites refuse God's discipline? Yes.
Are we warned not to IMITATE their refusal?

YES!

Tell me how I'm mis-interpreting it.

Ben, was the 40 years the Israelites spent wandering around in the desert discipline from God or not?

 

[Ben johnson]

Sawdust, what happens to those 40 things, when a person comes to "unbelief"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, was the 40 years the Israelites spent wandering around in the desert discipline from God or not?

It was really more of a judgment. 40 years is a "generation"; those who were faithless and turned from God (and worshipped the golden calf), died in the wilderness; their kids entered the Promised Land.

Your turn --- what does Heb4:11 mean to you?
"Be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest any of you FALL by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief".