Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

What does "propitiation" mean? Appeasement. Jesus is the payment for our sins. For the WHOLE WORLD? Holos kosmos means that; but is the whole world saved? No.

What's the difference between the "saved", and "the whole world"? It's faith, isn't it?

The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was a sacrifice given by the high priest for the entire nation. Did all believe? No..

1 John 2:2 (Amplified Bible)
"And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world."
​

Propitiation for our "sins."


If God did not provide an atonement for our sins?


Our sins would have kept us perpetually alienated from God, and God perpetually alienated from us = FORSAKEN!


If we were FORSAKEN by God for having sin (being fallen)? There could be no salvation. For God could not reveal himself to us to give one the opportunity to believe in Himself.

Matthew 27:46 (New International Version)
"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


​

Jesus was FORSAKEN on the cross because of our sins which were imputed to him by the Father. We were able not to be forsaken by God, because Jesus took our place on the Cross!

Because Jesus himself remained sinless? He could only remain forsaken by God during the time our finite sins were poured on him. After the last sin of man was paid for? Only Jesus, who personally remained sinless, could return to God's fellowship! Because he never sinned, he could be forsaken in our place, and then return to fellowship with God after the last sin was paid for. We could never pay for our own sins. We would have been forsaken forever, because we are sinners from birth.


If we had to pay for our sins? We would have remained forsaken forever, because we walk around with a fallen nature that God can have no part of. Jesus never sinned. Jesus never fell. Jesus was never forsaken for who and what he was.


Jesus finished the work of the penalty of sin. So, man is now freed up to either believe in Christ, or to reject belief! The issue is no longer sin. The issue is now a matter of belief (faith), or unbelief (evil).

Acts 16:30-31a (New International Version)
"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be save."
​

If Jesus did not take upon Himself the penalty for sin? We could not know God exists! No one could choose to believe, or reject. For a Holy God would have forsaken fallen mankind. Unless! There was a way to reverse the effects! That answer was found on the Cross!


You can go your way if you wish. I do not want to argue with you. I am blessed every day by having been given this beautiful understanding of God's Word.

1 John 4:18 (New International Version)
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
​

Your way of thinking keeps trying to drive fear into the people over a false issue. Perfect love comes from a perfected understanding. It drives out fear. Not induce doubts and fear like your way does.

Hebrews 13:5b (New King James Version)
"For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
​

There, you have it. But, you refuse it. You want to. You want to be the one to save yourself. Your nothing special if all it takes is to believe and you can not lose what you find. Those who think they can lose their salvation want to feel special... I think that's it. They take pride in keeping themselves saved.

Thank you Jesus for dying on the Cross for me. Now, back off and allow me to show you that I can save myself by what I choose to do.

We are his property. He will lose none of all the Father has given him.

John 6:39 (New International Version)
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
​

There he goes! Jesus was lying again!





In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

If God did not provide an atonement for our sins?

Our sins would have kept us perpetually alienated from God, and God perpetually alienated from us = FORSAKEN!

they still do. Atonement or propitiation does not automatically forgive mankind of their sins. Not a single persons sins were forgiven on the Cross. They were atoned for, not forgiven.

If we were FORSAKEN by God for having sin (being fallen)? There could be no salvation. For God could not reveal himself to us to give one the opportunity to believe in Himself.

the point is that is why Christ came into this world, because we were sinners in need of healing.
His Blood atoned for our sins, for the sins of the world. The only reason that God can call all men to unite IN Him is because He atoned their sins and now can forgive them of those sins, IF they desire by faith to enter into His Kingdom. Sin, willful, lazy christian living will remove you from His Kingdom. Sin and God do not mix. We must live in Him and when we do sin, we must seek forgiveness to remain reconciled to God.

If we had to pay for our sins? We would have remained forsaken forever, because we walk around with a fallen nature that God can have no part of. Jesus never sinned. Jesus never fell. Jesus was never forsaken for who and what he was.

It is true that man could not propitiate his own sins, let alone the sins of the world. But just because they are propitiated does man no good, unless one desires to enter into His Kingdom. Then repentance is a must before one can enter and continual repentance once we do enter. the Atonment provided a means by which man could be forgiven of his sins, and because Christ propitiated them, they can be forgiven.
Jesus did not need to fall. He did not have the nature of Adam which required man, Adam to sin, before He was condemned to a mortal nature. Christ simply needed to assume our fallen condition, and in that fallen condition, not sin. Jesus could sin, He was tempted by the devil, but did not sin. That is why He can be our Savior, the perfect Lamp without spot, because He did not sin.

Jesus finished the work of the penalty of sin. So, man is now freed up to either believe in Christ, or to reject belief! The issue is no longer sin. The issue is now a matter of belief (faith), or unbelief (evil).

Yet a novel approach, but sin IS our problem. Always has been and always will be. Unbelief is a sin, it is blatant rejection of Christ, a sin. A sin as flagrant as Adam's.
Unbelief is not evil. A host of unbelievers are sinners, but are not evil necessarily. You have redefined evil to suit your presupposition regarding sin. Sin is sin, not necessarily evil. All evil is sin however.

If Jesus did not take upon Himself the penalty for sin? We could not know God exists! No one could choose to believe, or reject. For a Holy God would have forsaken fallen mankind. Unless! There was a way to reverse the effects! That answer was found on the Cross!

You seem to think that sin is man's primary problem. It is no, but a result of a much deeper problem. If Christ had ONLY as you put it, paid the penalty for sin, we would still be as lost as we were before the Cross. Mankind would have been in a hopeless state.

"For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

But God is not even the issue or the problem. We are our own problem. It is WE who cannot make the same promise for ourselves to God.
But God also has another promise, which He will be faithful in executing as well. "If you deny me, I will deny you before My Father who is in Heaven." That is a very serious promise. Can you guarantee that you will and can remain faithful?

You want to be the one to save yourself.

That is because created you to do just that. In fact, Christ redeemed you from the condemnation of Adam, JUST SO YOU COULD SAVE YOURSELF. That saving is the purpose for which mankind was created. To be eternal and in union with God, FREELY. It is all up to you to choose this day who you will serve and remain faithful to the end.

Those who think they can lose their salvation want to feel special... I think that's it. They take pride in keeping themselves saved.

Where is the pride when I cannot do it. I need the Holy Spirit and a lot of additonal help to do that work. I need to work at it because I and I alone wil give an answer to what I did. I don't need to answer for you. You can live as if He is doing it all for you, when that is why He created you and saved you as well.

Thank you Jesus for dying on the Cross for me. Now, back off and allow me to show you that I can save myself by what I choose to do.

But He did that for every single soul that liveth. What makes you distinctive?

We are his property. He will lose none of all the Father has given him.

All of mankind is His property. He created every single soul. You bear His Image, every single human being, no exceptions. Why would He desire to lose any. John 6:39, Rom 11:32, and Rom 5:18-19, Col 1:15-20 all very explicitedly state that Christ owns, controls and is IN ALL things. That inclues not just unbelievers but the very universe itself. How can there be any loss. But the question is can man, any man lose any of this?
Absolutely not. Man had nothing to do with the work of redemption. But once redemption is done, Christ can now via the Holy Spirit call all men to repentance. He calls every single soul without exception and every single soul will have given an eternal answer at the judgement seat of Christ. We will be judged on our works, what we DID in this life for Christ.
[qoute]There he goes! Jesus was lying again! [/quote] He isn't but you have no understanding what the Gospel has been teaching for centuries.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

they still do. Atonement or propitiation does not automatically forgive mankind of their sins. Not a single persons sins were forgiven on the Cross. They were atoned for, not forgiven.

I never said what you just did. You are not getting a thing. And, then you go on, and on.

​

I am giving this up. You keep distorting what I say.



.

 

[GenemZ]

You are not getting a thing. God could not even approach us if there was no atonement provided for. FORSAKEN. We could not be offered salvation. I did not say anything about forgiveness.

​

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

I never said what you just did. You are not getting a thing. And, then you go on, and on.

I understand fully what the Gospel teaches. It is not even close to what you are explaining. If that is not what you stated then you are even further out of the Gospel.
You stated that sin is no longer an issue, that Christ paid the penalty of man's sins. If sin is no longer an issue to you, then it can ONLY mean that they were all forgiven. If not, then your theology does absolutely nothing regarding sin, yet you say it was paid for. How?

I am giving this up. You keep distorting what I say.

Either you do not explain your view very well. Or you are so far from the Gospel that no one can recognize it. Which might it be?

You are not getting a thing. God could not even approach us if there was no atonement provided for. FORSAKEN. We could not be offered salvation. I did not say anything about forgiveness.

He cannot approach us with atonement but it permits Him to call us. It takes forgiveness of sin before YOU can enter into His presence. And it takes forgiveness to remain IN Him. Sin separates man, believers from God. Always has and always will. Sin is still a problem for man. Atonement does absolutely nothing for man, unless man seeks forgiveness. The Work of Christ on the Cross was for man to be reconciled to God through Christ. That was acccomplished. But man must seek reconciliation to God, which is done by faith, forgiveness of sin.
But sin is also not the primary cause of our problem. If sin was the ONLY thing Christ did on the Cross, it still would all have been for naught, in vain. See I Cor 15:14-19.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

I understand fully what the Gospel teaches. It is not even close to what you are explaining. If that is not what you stated then you are even further out of the Gospel.
You stated that sin is no longer an issue, that Christ paid the penalty of man's sins. If sin is no longer an issue to you, then it can ONLY mean that they were all forgiven.

Where does it say? "Name your sins and you will be saved?"

Christ is the issue in salvation.

What think ye of Christ! That's the issue in salvation. Mentioning what Christ did on our behalf concerning sin should be taught to make the issue of 'who and what' Jesus Christ is, to be clarified. But? Our sins were paid for on the Cross! The issue is not about YOU! Its about Christ. What you think of Christ!

John 3:16 (New International Version)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
​

Our sins are not even mentioned in that passage which speaks of salvation.

Sin is an issue to be dealt with after we are saved! But, the issue in coming to salvation is what think ye about Christ. Not, what think ye about your sin.

Mens sins will not even be brought up at the final judgment of the unbeliever (Revelation 20:12). Only men's works will be looked at! To see if they had believed in Christ, the one work which will not be found.

John 6:29 (New International Version)
"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
​

The Holy Spirit wants us to be preoccupied with Christ! Not sin. Sins can be easily dealt with after we are saved (1 John 1:9). He wants us to have a our eyes fixed on Christ! You seem to think we need to keep our eyes on our sins. If we sin less we please God. Legalism. In reality, if we keep growing in grace and truth, that pleases God! The knowledge we gain from God's Word will show us how the issue of sin has been dealt with.

Now? If someone wants to rebel? That's an issue with rebelling against the Cross. Its maladjustment to salvation.




In Christ, GeneZ





.

 

[Ormly]

I believe I am finally ready to get off this forum.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, do you even realise you have just contradicted yourself. You have just said that they don't get disciplined then .... but they can't escape.

No contradiction. Heb12 says that we are subject to God's discipline, or not. If we choose not to be subject to His discipline, then we are illegitimate and not His sons (daughters). "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to (the discipline of) the Father of spirits, and live?" No way can it be asserting anything but "and live eternally".

"Much less shall we escaped who turn away from God", can only be saying "we will not escape God's wrath if we turn away from Him". Remember Heb2:1?
"We must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" How can anyone "spin" that into "you cannot drift away from salvation"? Impossible.

And don't you dare turn around and change the subject of this passage.

The context is discipline not salvation from sin.

"Salvation", is "being God's adopted children". Refusing His discipline, forfeits the adoption. It's crystal clear. If we are without His discipline (clearly the context says "we can submit or not"), then we are not saved...

The very fact they will not escape discipline proves they are children of God and not illegitimate.

Some people are not under His discipline. When he says "SHALL we not much rather BE subject..." --- it conveys full choice. Two contrasting views here, Sawdust; submit to His discipline, and be His children; or not-submit, turn away from Him, and be "illegitimate and not sons". The first is saved, the second isn't.

Only one position makes sense, Sawdust; and it's not any form of "osas". I don't see how that's open to interpretation...

For the tenth millionth time (well maybe slight exageration there), there is more to the truth than the Gospel. The Gospel is for unbelievers. This scripture is directed to believers. Discipline is given to those who have already received the Gospel and need to learn how to walk in the Spirit by faith.

Discipline can be refused; if WE refuse it, then WE are no longer His children (but illegitimate).

That walk is not automatic, it is not natural, it must be learnt. Some learn, some refuse the discipline and never learn.

And some refuse the discipline after having-been-saved.

Everyone who refuses God's discipline, is turned away from Him, and no longer God's children.

This needs to be dealt with before I respond to the rest of your post. You can't have it boths ways. You can't say they won't escape discipline while at the same time not being disciplined.

It's dealt with; I know you don't like how I present the meaning; but unless you can demonstrate I'm misunderstanding Scripture, I hope you will consider I'm not wrong.

That was your response. How am I missing the most important part Ben?

This is what I said.

.... we actively pursue and our victory over sin is the automatic outcome of resting in the truth of God's word in the filling of the Spirit.

Where did I miss "stop sinning"? Did you even read what I said?

You said:

The Lord counts you the sinner as being dead.

Many people assert that "we are COUNTED dead, even though we CONTINUE to sin". Sorry that I misunderstood you.

In the same way you are to see yourself as dead. You don't will yourself dead to sin, you reckon yourself dead to it because you have been baptised into Christ's death. It is what the Lord has done to you, not what you can do for yourself.

That makes no sense; if the Lord has caused us to be "dead to sin", why do we still SIN? Nothing in Rom8 reads like "don't worry God assures that you WILL walk in the Spirit and live, and will NOT walk in the flesh and die."

Walking in the flesh, and dying, is a choice. "We are under obligation", not "we are under sovereign DECREE".

It's a constant choice to walk in salvation, or to turn away from Him and His discipline. There's no way to misinterpret what they wrote.

"SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND live? Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

 

[Ben johnson]

Perhaps Beloved57 will accomodate you. I refuse to go circular.

I hope you will consider that there is no position of "saved", that exists without being "born again". Everything I've asserted has been fully backed with Scripture. The essence of salvation is Christ-in-you; it's an indwelt fellowship of love. Belief that does not receive Jesus' indwelling presence (and the Spirit's indwelling), is not really belief.

There are several concepts that co-exist; one can never exist separate from the other.

Repentance.
Indwelling of the Spirit.
Indwelling of Christ.
Sanctification.
Justification.
Regeneration.

Not one of those exist alone; and if "regenerated", then "the old has passed away, all has become new; everyone 'in Christ' is a new creation."

"Salvation", is "rescued from wrath and Hell". Jesus said "unless you are born again (born from above) you cannot enter the kingdom of God".

Born-from-above, is the spirituality one has, who belongs to God. We are born of the flesh, but must be spiritually re-born else we will perish.

I'm sorry if anything I've said has offended you; yet, we've established that "born-again" is inseparable from "salvation".

 

[Ben johnson]

Falling from the faith, means to be seduced away from sound doctrine because we want to rule over our soul by what we personally feel in our emotions and how we personally think God is.

Gene, will you consider that "seduced-away-from-sound-doctrine", is incompatible with "saved"?

Many a believer will refuse to accept sound doctrine because it offers nothing for their flesh to take possession of.

If he "refuses to accept sound doctrine" (because it offers nothing for the flesh), what does he believe in? Is he not rather "living for the flesh, to satisfy its lusts?

They need something they can emotionally dig in their heels about when thinking Scripture.

Therefore, men will not "endure" .. "put up with" .. sound doctrine. Instead, to suite their own desires? Will seek out teachings that make their flesh feel alive in what they call God's plan.

A perfect example of that was with many of the Jews and Pharisees who thought that their salvation depended upon their own morality and obedience to certain rules which were demanding works...

If you believe in Jesus Christ? You are saved. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ? You are not saved.

For? If you believe in Jesus Christ? You are family of God. Now? One can be a good son, or a bad son. But, one is still a son. The protocol son was not disowned while he was being bad. He was denied blessings and happiness while he was being bad.

You embrace the idea of "one can be a bad son but be SAVED."

Jesus said, "No bad tree produces good fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruit."

John said (in 1:3:5-10), "Little children, let no one deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous; he who practices wickedness is of the devil. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed --- he who does not practice righteousness is not of God."

Regarding the Prodigal Son (to which you seem to be referring), in Lk15:13 (and ONLY in that verse), is that son "saved"? Had he died while living with prostitutes and drunkards, would he really have entered Heaven?

"There is more rejoicing in Heaven over one who REPENTS, than over 99 righteous persons who NEED NO repentance." Lk15:7

He who repents. The unrepentant will never enter Heaven. (Lk13:3!)

Never.

You can go your way if you wish. I do not want to argue with you.

You are not arguing with me; you are arguing with Scripture...

I am blessed every day by having been given this beautiful understanding of God's Word.


1 John 4:18 (New International Version)
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

And you're missing verse 16: "He who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in Him."

We can cease to abide. If we do, we perish.

Your way of thinking keeps trying to drive fear into the people over a false issue. Perfect love comes from a perfected understanding. It drives out fear. Not induce doubts and fear like your way does.

Diligence in salvation is required; perseverance is commanded. Walking in Him and overcoming sin is admonished.

Your position asserts "don't worry", in the face of all those verses that say "worry".

"Therefore work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13

In the Garden of Eden, the biggest lie to Eve, was "you can't really die"; to think salvation cannot be forfeit, is just continuation of "you-can't-really-die".

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve, YOUR minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

"For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

There, you have it. But, you refuse it.

In Rom11:29, His gifts and calling are "irrevocable" (without repentance). In 2Tim2:11-13, "He remains faithful even if we do not".

This asserts God's faithfulness towards US.
What of OUR faithfulness towards HIM?

You want to. You want to be the one to save yourself.

The concept of "save yourselves", is well established in Scripture (Lk21:19, 1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:9).

You're nothing special if all it takes is to believe and you can not lose what you find.

We are NEVER "anything special"; He died for us because He loves us, not "because we're special".

We are special BECAUSE He died for us, not the other way around...

Those who think they can lose their salvation want to feel special... I think that's it. They take pride in keeping themselves saved.

We are "given to Christ", through belief; if belief ends, then we are no longer "given".

Loss of faith does not mean HE has lost US; but we have lost ourselves.

Thank you Jesus for dying on the Cross for me. Now, back off and allow me to show you that I can save myself by what I choose to do.

We are his property. He will lose none of all the Father has given him.

I would really like to hear your answer to Heb3:

"We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confiddence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Do not harden your hearts.
Take care brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart...
THAT FALLS AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD....
Encourage one another, lest you be hardened by deceitful sin.
We are partners in Christ, IF we HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.
Therefore let us fear lest, while there remains a promise of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to FALL SHORT.
Be diligent TO enter His rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their disobedience and unbelief."

3:6-14, 4:1 & 11.

Show me how that does not warn severely against "hardening ourselves to falling away from God". Against "not-entering-His-rest because of unbelief and disobedience". How it does not assert that "partners in Christ, and members of Christ's house, IF we hold fast to Him".

I look forward to your response, and how you answer the Scriptures posted...

 

[Ormly]

Ben Johnson;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Perhaps Beloved57 will accomodate you. I refuse to go circular.

I hope you will consider that there is no position of "saved", that exists without being "born again". Everything I've asserted has been fully backed with Scripture. The essence of salvation is Christ-in-you; it's an indwelt fellowship of love. Belief that does not receive Jesus' indwelling presence (and the Spirit's indwelling), is not really belief.

We have established nothing, Ben, except you are stuck in redemption gear and the key is turned off. . . steering wheel is locked.

Same here, Ben. I hope you will learn to do the same. make better distinctions; get a better perspective. I am not saying you are wrong or unsaved, just incomplete;shallow, in your thinking. You haven't responded to scripture I have offered you to consider, I guess choosing to ignore it to press your opinion. But thats life, eh, when you believe yourself right?

 

[GenemZ]

Gene, will you consider that "seduced-away-from-sound-doctrine", is incompatible with "saved"?

You do! I don't. That's like saying that any American that would vote for Hillary is not an American.




.

 

[nobdysfool]

Gene, will you consider that "seduced-away-from-sound-doctrine", is incompatible with "saved"?

Ah, so you believe that one is saved by sound doctrine? Then you have abandoned Christ, for it is Christ who saves us, not sound doctrine. This falls under the heading of "Another Gospel". Paul; had some rather harsh things to say about those who promote such deception.

Ben, I hope that you will reconsider your words, because you have espoused a grievous error.

 

[GenemZ]

Ah, so you believe that one is saved by sound doctrine? Then you have abandoned Christ, for it is Christ who saves us, not sound doctrine. This falls under the heading of "Another Gospel". Paul; had some rather harsh things to say about those who promote such deception.

Ben, I hope that you will reconsider your words, because you have espoused a grievous error.

You are missing a point. He is using a passage without understanding its context, and then running with it. (into a wall)

Here...

1 Timothy 4:16 (New International Version)
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."
​

Sound doctrine is what saves us from mistakes and unneeded evils in this life. Ben simply sees the word "save" and jumps on the ball in the mud. He is not thinking context.

Well? If I have a a "savings account?"

That account, saves people? See the problem he is stumbling into?


Now,, here is an example of sound doctrine.... That saves us from doubt and evil.

John 6:36-40 (New International Version)
"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

Add to that?

John 10:28 (New International Version)
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
​

The Lord knew that certain believers would be jerks. That is why he gave us such passages to know and to believe.


So we could be free from doubt and fear of losing our salvation, and instead; fear not doing his will because we are His.


Those who believe they can lose their salvation are not saved from evil. They call those words of the Lord, lies. They reject sound doctrine. They turn God into a man who has super powers and is resentful of those who reject his will. Their God is really Allah, not Jehovah.




.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

You keep reciting God's promises to man, to believers especially, yet I never see any of your promises to Him that you can make the same finite promise relative to your side of the relationship. If you think He is holding you from error, why did He not hold Adam?

So we could be free from doubt and fear of losing our salvation, and instead; fear not doing his will because we are His.

Depends on what part of salvation you are speaking about. Christ's Work on the Cross or the salvation of your individual soul?

The Lord knew that certain believers would be jerks. That is why he gave us such passages to know and to believe.

Based on some of your theology, most of the world would be saved. A recent poll in the US indicated that about 85% of Americans have some Church affiliation. Another almost 8% also believe in God, but have no church affiliation. The remainder are agnostics and Atheists. So, I would presume that at least 93% of all Americans living now, would be saved by your theology.
If so, one wonders why there is such a hell on earth in the US. Hardly possible given your theology.

 

[Ben johnson]

We have established nothing, Ben, except you are stuck in redemption gear and the key is turned off. . . steering wheel is locked.

Same here, Ben. I hope you will learn to do the same. make better distinctions; get a better perspective. I am not saying you are wrong or unsaved, just incomplete;shallow, in your thinking.

The same perception is held by most everyone participating. That's why we debate with Scripture, to see which view is "incomplete"...

You haven't responded to scripture I have offered you to consider, I guess choosing to ignore it to press your opinion. But thats life, eh, when you believe yourself right?

Give me a post number (of your post) and I'll try to respond.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ah, so you believe that one is saved by sound doctrine?

The "sound doctrine", is "salvation by grace (Christ's sacrifice on the Cross), through faith". You know very well that I agree salvation is Christ in us, by faith; the Spirit regenerating us, then all our works are the consequence of how He has changed our hearts.

Yet --- there are those who say "we can be seduced away from sound doctrine, but remain saved".

Look at Col2:6-8; such a person who is deceived by empty philosophy and worldly deception, no longer abides in Christ. "Worldly deception" as a rule, is "works salvation".

"Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, {so} walk in Him, having been firmly rooted {and now} being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, {and} overflowing with gratitude. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

There is no way someone can be "deceived away from Christ", but still be "saved".

Then you have abandoned Christ, for it is Christ who saves us, not sound doctrine.

Is it possible that you thought I do not agree with your statement?

No.

This falls under the heading of "Another Gospel". Paul; had some rather harsh things to say about those who promote such deception.

But what did Paul say about those who were deceived???

Ben, I hope that you will reconsider your words, because you have espoused a grievous error.

...have not...

 

[Ben johnson]

You do! I don't. That's like saying that any American that would vote for Hillary is not an American.

If her policies would cause the destruction of the country, then one who votes for her would not be "American".

(to other readers --- I said "IF"...)

You are missing a point. He is using a passage without understanding its context, and then running with it. (into a wall)

Here...

1 Timothy 4:16 (New International Version)
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

Sound doctrine is what saves us from mistakes and unneeded evils in this life. Ben simply sees the word "save" and jumps on the ball in the mud. He is not thinking context.

Well? If I have a a "savings account?"

That account, saves people? See the problem he is stumbling into?

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." NASV

2John1:8-9: Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. NASV


You have two choices, Gene:
1. We can not-abide-in-His-teachings, and NOT HAVE GOD, but STILL BE SAVED.
2. We can not-abide, and become unsaved.

You're espousing #1; "saved without God and Christ". How do I convince you that isn't possible?

Now, here is an example of sound doctrine.... That saves us from doubt and evil.

John 6:36-40 (New International Version)
"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

Wait --- Jesus told Thomas, "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe."

Clearly "believing", is a choice...

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Do you deny the connection with Jn17:6? "Father, those Thou hast given Me out of the world --- Thine they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me."

Do you deny that "Thine-they-were", precedes "given-to-Jesus"?
Now --- do you assert that "Thine-they-were", does not denote belief/love for the Father?

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Who are the Given? Those who see, AND believe.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

What if they cease to believe? Are they still "given"?

And would Jesus have LOST them?

Add to that?

John 10:28 (New International Version)
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Sorry, "snatch" is "harpazo --- sieze/remove FORCIBLY". Nothing in that passage asserts "cannot leave by willful disbelief".

Besides, the context asserts: "My works testify to Me" (verse 25); if you do not believe Me, then believe My WORKS, and you will know I am in the Father and the Father is in Me." (verse 38)[/color]

Jesus said "you can believe in Me just by looking at what I have DONE".

The Lord knew that certain believers would be jerks. That is why he gave us such passages to know and to believe.

"Jerks"? As in, "bad fruit"? Do you deny Jesus' words?
You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn {bushes} nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Matt7:16-18

Do you deny that "jerks", reflect "unsaved fruit"???

So we could be free from doubt and fear of losing our salvation, and instead; fear not doing his will because we are His.

Please respond to Peter's words, 2:1:5-10; his list of "qualities" (godliness, self-control, moral excellence, brotherly kindness and love), is not optional. We are to excercise DILIGENCE to make sure of our calling and election --- that we not be like the man who LOST the qualities AND his purification, so that the gates of Heaven be provided to us. Please explain how "ungodly fruits" will not "bar us from Heaven" in this passage.

Those who believe they can lose their salvation are not saved from evil. They call those words of the Lord, lies. They reject sound doctrine. They turn God into a man who has super powers and is resentful of those who reject his will. Their God is really Allah, not Jehovah.

That's a baseless charge, Gene; and offensive.

Answer my post #550, especially this:

"We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confiddence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Do not harden your hearts.

Take care brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart...

THAT FALLS AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD....

Encourage one another, lest you be hardened by deceitful sin.

We are partners in Christ, IF we HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

Therefore let us fear lest, while there remains a promise of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to FALL SHORT.

Be diligent TO enter His rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their disobedience and unbelief."

Heb3:6-14, 4:1 & 11.

You can't answer that in keeping with your position, can you?

 

[sawdust]

No contradiction. Heb12 says that we are subject to God's discipline, or not. If we choose not to be subject to His discipline, then we are illegitimate and not His sons (daughters). "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to (the discipline of) the Father of spirits, and live?" No way can it be asserting anything but "and live eternally".

Ben, you do not get to choose whether you receive discipline or not if you belong to God. You will be disciplined, fullstop.... there is no escape from discipline if you are a believer. What you get to choose is whether you will learn from it or not. The unbeliever is not disciplined at all. To speak of discipline in respect to an unbeliever is lunacy. It is part of the reason societies breakdown when they ignore God because He is not correcting them.

That's the point of what the writer is trying to make. It is not a question of whether the believers he is speaking to will or will not receive discipline, it is guaranteed they will because they are children of God. Therefore, seeing as you will be disciplined, be smart and wise up to yourself and learn from it when it comes your way.

"Much less shall we escaped who turn away from God", can only be saying "we will not escape God's wrath if we turn away from Him".

You had to go and do it, didn't you. I told you not to change the subject but you just had to go and slip "wrath" in there. There is no mention of wrath. The non-escape is from discipline. Try reading the passage without your pre-conceived ideas, as if it was the first time you have ever read it.

"We must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" How can anyone "spin" that into "you cannot drift away from salvation"? Impossible.

The same way you can spin things into saying things that are not written there in first the place. I would hate to be the one who lives within your soul. It's like playing leap frog in a mine field.

"Salvation", is "being God's adopted children". Refusing His discipline, forfeits the adoption. It's crystal clear.

Yes salvation is being God's adopted child which is why you will be disciplined. You can't refuse discipline. It will happen. The only thing you can refuse is to learn from it.

I see, so "will not escape if we turn away from God", and "are not children but illegitimate", really means "we can turn away from God but never escape HIM (saved-though-TURNED-AWAY) and illegitimate-not-sons but STILL SONS???

You see nothing of what I'm saying which is why you come up with such silly notions.

Only one position makes sense, Sawdust; and it's not any form of "osas". So much of Scripture is not open to interpretation, is it?

No it doesn't Ben. Only one position makes sense to you. And that is the problem when we think we know what scripture says and are not willing to learn that it might be different from what we first thought.

Discipline can be refused; if WE refuse it, then WE are no longer His children (but illegitimate). And some refuse the discipline after having-been-saved.

No, discipline cannot be refused. The only thing that can be refused is learning from it when it comes.

Everyone who refuses God's discipline, is turned away from Him, and no longer God's children.

Rubbish!

It's dealt with; you're not going to like how it's been dealt with, but you're also not going to be able to deny it.

I can deny it, I did deny it. I guess you were wrong on that score.

That makes no sense; if the Lord has caused us to be "dead to sin", why do we still SIN?

Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben!

I never said God caused us to be dead to sin. I said He reckons it as so and the reason is because you have been baptised into Christ's death. Immersed Ben, so when the Lord looks at you, He does not see "Ben the sinner", He sees Christ the sinless One. Ben the sinner is hidden away "in Christ".

Nothing in Rom8 reads like "don't worry God assures that you WILL walk in the Spirit and live, and will NOT walk in the flesh and die."

And I have never said it did. You make assumption after assupmtion about what I hold true, according to the teaching I have received. I could explain it further but I am not of a mind to at the moment.

Walking in the flesh, and dying, is a choice. "We are under obligation", not "we are under sovereign DECREE".

This is where I think the difference between you and I cuts to the chase. You walk, because you think you are under obligation, afraid you will lose what you have. I walk, because I know what I have in Christ can never be lost and it is the greatest privlege one can receive.

It is both Ben. I have what I have in Christ because God declared that is where salvation and all that pertains to salvation will be. How much will be transferred to me as my own possession of the "all things" that Christ is, will depend upon my own will in the way I walk in this new life I have been given.

It's a constant choice to walk in salvation, or to turn away from Him and His discipline. There's no way to misinterpret what they wrote.

Well, you seem to be doing a pretty good job.

"SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND live? Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

Ben, if unbelievers are not disciplined (and they are not), how can these "who turn away from God" be unbelievers because the writer is saying they most definately won't escape discipline? You make no sense.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

Just curious on this comment.....

This is where I think the difference between you and I cuts to the chase. You walk, because you think you are under obligation, afraid you will lose what you have. I walk, because I know what I have in Christ can never be lost and it is the greatest privlege one can receive.

Is not a promise made an obligation?
What do you have that cannot be lost?