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Originally Posted by Sawdust
He didn't speak of participation. He said it was "solely man's responsibility to save himself or lose himself". As the context was salvation from sin, he errs considerably.
The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16
Ormly,
Sin cannot go anywhere. It is a parasite, a disease of man. It is of the flesh of man which dies. It is the ONLY reason we die once, physically in our existance to rid the body of sin. So when mankind is raised at the last day, we all will be raised incorruptible, immortal. Christ the Judge will then separate those who spiritually, not physically have either been IN Christ, or rejected Christ. Those who rejected Christ will be separated spiritually from God, not physically. It is impossible for God to be separated from His creation, surely His creature, man. We live and move and have our being through His Grace. In hell mankind is still a creature.
They will all be flesh and bone when resurrected and never die physically again. Those who died in sin upon their resurrection, remain in sin and will be cast into hell. End of story. That's good Bible.
it takes more than just prooftexting to understand the Bible. Matt 5:22, Psa 68:2-3, Rev 14:9-10, Psa 97:1-5, all through the Bible fire is used as a metaphor.
I believe your thinking is a metaphor. So whats with your prooftexting?
Amazing, is it not, that despite how "Biblical" one says they are, that they only believe that which is in the Bible, nothing more and nothing less, just how much our preconcieved concepts and ideas can limit our understanding, and even seem to miss verses that speak quite clearly to the issue.
Sure is. Your are indeed, amazing.
We have not, due to God's great mercy and patience with us sinners, experienced the full presence of God because He knows most of us cannot yet handle it. Judgement day is coming into His presence fully, "face to face" and as the above verses show, for the unrighteous it will not be a pleasant experience. God's presence is with us, but it is hidden from us to give us time. This is why no one has seen a form of God other than Jesus Christ.
Moses saw the form of God. Need a "prooftext" for that?
This is why Adam and Eve, after they sinned, hid from God because they could not endure His presence whereas before they walked openly with Him.
Is that what the Bible, you say you understand, says?
God loved the world, including all sinners.
No, He didn't and doesn't.
When does it ever say that God stopped loving sinners.
Where does it say He loved them all? I read where He hated many.
They are His creatures, they all bear His Image. God does not change, but man's perception of Him changes.
Which is why I am reading this strange speak from you.
His Love becomes wrath for those who desire to shun it, to remove themselves from its light and warmth.
Sweet words but empty; devoid of understanding.
Here is what St. John Maximovich had to say about it:
"'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation.
Yes. It will be destroyed by real live fire and remade to be what it was before the fall.
Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds.
Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience!
I guess it will be like a dream, eh? Nothing really physically happening, correct?
Hardly, but a Christian who has accepted and believed the Gospel once given and how it has always been understood. It is not of my own making, or my own personal perception or theory, as you have persistantly put forth.
It is an adulterated mixer of truth and error with heavy emphasis on error.
It is unfortunate that "western Christianity" has been so greatly influenced by Augustine, Anselm, Abelard, and Aquinas. Their concept is of a God that seeks revenge, who seeks satisfaction, seeks punishment, rather than a God of Love. That God seems ruled and controlled by some higher, more powerful force than Himself to which He is obligated.
Your brush is too wide when you say western Christianity. Your eastern brand is as much incomplete as you to proclaim others to be. God has already judged this world. There will be no transformation when He has already declared He will make all things new. There will be no repairs made to this world.
Just something the think about.
I have and it is "wanting".
Answer me this: Would Christ have still be necessary if Adam had never transgressed?
Correct; and those who believe, are in Christ (and He in them). Yet as Paul says in 2Tim2:11-13, if WE are faithless, then HE denies us before God.
Not revealed. But knowing what we do know without speculation, No.Would Christ have still be necessary if Adam had never transgressed?
Ormly,
Not revealed. But knowing what we do know without speculation, No.
Then you obviously know nothing about the cross principle Adam was to submit to and the acheivement He would have enjoyed and you can't discuss it.
You make a lot of assertions, but never any proof of them. You give nothing in rebuttal. If you disagree, why?
What are you looking for, prooftext? You say you aren't and yet dismiss out of hand rebuttal given you, falling back upon your oft repeated "church" infallibility as the excuse. I fully understand the scripture I use in what I offer up as my reasoning of them. You can't and don't do that preferring to defer to your "Church" as the authority.
What theology can you present that would refute the Gospel that has been held consistantly, constantly without change within the Body of Christ for 2000 years.
Why would one want, need to change the unchanging Gospel?
See what I mean. I can shooot YOUR gospel full of holes
simply because it is empty. There is no power in it.
What hasn't changed in 2000 yrs is the attempted destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ by mindset such as your's, determined to cling to what can't save. You however, wouldn't recognize that because the overwhelming semblance you embrace as truth..
Whatever view you might have, can you give any historical authenticity of its understanding, practice and faithfulness as the Gospel?
Sure, the power of God in the people of God. You want to know who they are? Step outside your "church" buliding.
They will all be flesh and bone when resurrected and never die physically again. Those who died in sin upon their resurrection, remain in sin and will be cast into hell. End of story. That's good Bible.
Only those who believe in Christ will never die again. Mortality will put on immortality.
But? To unbelievers who are resurrected to stand before the Lord? Once their flesh hits the Lake of Fire? Their flesh and bones will be consumed. Their soul will once again be without a body. Hence... "the second death."
Their souls will be in torment for ever. They will lose their body a second time. Second death.
Its not their sins that will be judged in the Lake of Fire. If that were the case? Then Jesus did not pay the penalty for the sins of the world. He did.
1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
Its not man's sins that will be punished. Jesus received that punishment on the Cross. Its men's evil that is to be punished in the fire.
The sin nature resides in the flesh. In contrast.. evil comes from man's soul. Only souls will remain in the second death of torments, not the flesh. The flesh can not survive the flames! Only the indestructable soul survives! The soul absent of body = death.
Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
In Christ, GeneZ
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Only those who believe in Christ will never die again. Mortality will put on immortality.
But? To unbelievers who are resurrected to stand before the Lord? Once their flesh hits the Lake of Fire? Their flesh and bones will be consumed. Their soul will once again be without a body. Hence... "the second death."
Their souls will be in torment for ever. They will lose their body a second time. Second death.
Its not their sins that will be judged in the Lake of Fire. If that were the case? Then Jesus did not pay the penalty for the sins of the world. He did.
1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
Its not man's sins that will be punished. Jesus received that punishment on the Cross. Its men's evil that is to be punished in the fire.
The sin nature resides in the flesh. In contrast.. evil comes from man's soul. Only souls will remain in the second death of torments, not the flesh. The flesh can not survive the flames! Only the indestructable soul survives! The soul absent of body = death.
Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
In Christ, GeneZ
.
Without a body there is no soul.
No --- it "dovetails" perfectly with the idea of "He who endures to the end will be saved". Salvation is both an INSTANT thing (when we believe/receive Jesus), and a CONTINUAL thing (when we WALK/ABIDE in Him). As Paul says in Rom1:17, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the just shall live by faith."Ormly said:Ben, Paul was writing to born again folk. How do you reconcile that with your thinking? They were already saved. Given the rest of Paul's writings to the churches, don't you believe it speaks of something far greater than initial salvation?
There are not "multiple positions", Ormly; a person is saved, or not.Add this to your thinking: In Romans 8:17, Paul writes of our joint heirship with Christ. Birth relationship gives one the right to heirship, but participation in all that heirship involves comes only to those who live unto the Father’s intention.
I see two disparate positions there.Ben, Can you reconcile this verse with your above.
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV)
so, why not enlighten me with theory?Then you obviously know nothing about the cross principle Adam was to submit to and the acheivement He would have enjoyed and you can't discuss it.
I have seen no single explanation as yet on anything you disagreed with. See above statement.What are you looking for, prooftext? You say you aren't and yet dismiss out of hand rebuttal given you, falling back upon your oft repeated "church" infallibility as the excuse. I fully understand the scripture I use in what I offer up as my reasoning of them. You can't and don't do that preferring to defer to your "Church" as the authority.
Because it lacks the power of your sole intellect? See if you can refute the Gospel once given.See what I mean. I can shooot YOUR gospel full of holes
simply because it is empty. There is no power in it.
Another assertion with not a shred of evidence. Might be the destruction of private religions of man, like yours. that has also been going on for 2000 years. No man has been able to change that Gospel, yet you make a feeble attempt at it.What hasn't changed in 2000 yrs is the attempted destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ by mindset such as your's, determined to cling to what can't save. You however, wouldn't recognize that because the overwhelming semblance you embrace as truth..
All I see is mass confusion and the privatization of religion. You cannot, or have not yet even shown a inkling that what you might think the Bible means was ever believed and practiced in the history of Christianity. You present your interpretation and that is the end of it. Hardly the universal Gospel of Christ for the age.Sure, the power of God in the people of God. You want to know who they are? Step outside your "church" buliding.
Without a body there is no soul.
Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.
The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.
Revelation 20:4 (New American Standard Bible)
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
These "beheaded" ones? Were alive as souls while in Heaven.
But, to reign with Christ (on earth)? They will be given a new body to be alive on earth.
The soul does not need a body while being in Eternity. The invisible soul is visible (and heard) in Heaven.
Revelation 6:9-10 (New International Version)
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
Souls that are not living can not cry out...
But? If those same souls were placed inside of the material world (time and space)? The world would be dead to them. For without a body the soul can not be seen, nor heard.
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quote=genez;45802406]Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.
The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.
In your mind, it can be anyway you want it to be..I know what Genssis says and, in mine, that is an absolute. Lets proceed from that point and then sort out where the problem in your understanding lies. I have no difficulty with the scriptures you cite that could lead one to believe otherswise, so please don't re-quote them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Ben, Paul was writing to born again folk. How do you reconcile that with your thinking? They were already saved. Given the rest of Paul's writings to the churches, don't you believe it speaks of something far greater than initial salvation?
No --- it "dovetails" perfectly with the idea of "He who endures to the end will be saved". Salvation is both an INSTANT thing (when we believe/receive Jesus), and a CONTINUAL thing (when we WALK/ABIDE in Him). As Paul says in Rom1:17, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the just shall live by faith."
Quote:
Add this to your thinking: In Romans 8:17, Paul writes of our joint heirship with Christ. Birth relationship gives one the right to heirship, but participation in all that heirship involves comes only to those who live unto the Fathers intention.
There are not "multiple positions", Ormly; a person is saved, or not.
We are heirs, or lost.
Quote:
Ben, Can you reconcile this verse with your above.
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV)
I see two disparate positions there.
1. Died with Him (referencing the "dead to sin and born anew, from above", united with Jesus in death/crucifixion/immersion/buried --- into His death; and into His resurrection. Rom6:1-4.
Those who have died, shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
That's the first position. The second:
2. If we DENY Him, He will deny us (Matt10:33-34); and we will not reign with Him.
If we are FAITHLESS, yet He remains faithful (even though we PERISH.
We cannot be "faithlessly-saved"; so Him remaining faithful, in the FACE of us being faithless, does not mean "we're still saved".
Make sense?
[quote=genez;45802406]
In your mind, it can be anyway you want it to be..I know what Genssis says and, in mine, that is an absolute. Lets proceed from that point and then sort out where the problem in your understanding lies. I have no difficulty with the scriptures you cite that could lead one to believe otherswise, so please don't re-quote them.
Ormly? Gadooks!That was what I was explaining to you! What took place in Genesis. The soul was given a body, and it became a living soul in the material world.
Here!
Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.
The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.
After all I showed you from Revelation, how souls in Eternity (without bodies) are alive?
I am beginning to feel this is a hopeless cause to try and reason with someone who is stuck like you are. I showed you! Souls after death have life!
A soul only needs a body to be alive while in time and space. To be alive in the material world!
Here! Look again...
Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.
The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.
These "beheaded" ones? Were alive as souls while in Heaven.Revelation 20:4 (New American Standard Bible)"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
But, to reign with Christ (on earth)? They will be given a new body to be alive on earth.
The soul does not need a body while being in Eternity. The invisible soul is visible (and heard) in Heaven.
Souls that are not living can not cry out... Can they? These souls, did! No body!Revelation 6:9-10 (New International Version)"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
But? If those same souls were placed inside of the material world (time and space)? The world would be dead to them. For without a body the soul can not be seen, nor heard.
I can read what those passages say. I am sure others here can read, too. Why can't you? Maybe its because it destroys your preconceived notion that you have been clinging to? I think, that's why!
Wake up and see what the Word says! Not what you thought yesterday was the truth, but now are shown its not correct!
How are you ever going to grow? Best place to start, is to admit one is wrong so the truth can begin to take over. So, Christ through the Word can begin to reign in our lives.
In Christ, GeneZ
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Kinda makes me wonder what the interpretation would be for, "yet they will be saved through childbearing"The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16
Kinda makes me wonder what the interpretation would be for, "yet they will be saved through childbearing"
The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16
That is correct; yet, "in Christ", is changeable. That's the warning to "abide", to "take care", to "be diligent". 2Cor13:5, 2Pet1:5-10, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Jude20-21, and many many more.
Correct; and those who believe, are in Christ (and He in them). Yet as Paul says in 2Tim2:11-13, if WE are faithless, then HE denies us before God.
Context asserts we then will not reign with Him. (Are not saved.)
No, it hasn't; it all begins with "faith". That's why verses like Rom1:17 say God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith.
Sawdust, a "Christian" who does not realize the dynamics of salvation, isn't really saved, is he?
If Christ is in someone, how can he or she NOT "grow to maturity in Christ"? Impossible.
This is why I like the "pregnant" analogy; a woman either IS pregnant, or is NOT --- likewise, we either ARE saved, or are NOT. There is no "in-between"...
We have the Son, or we do not; it begins with conscious faith, and persists with continual faith
that is not what scripture says. There is a massive difference in propitiating or atoning for sin and overcoming sin. Christ did not overcome sin. If that were so, then there would be no sin in this world today. Christ did not eradicate sin, not even our fallen natures in this life, nor the working of Satan in this life. You have effectively negated Satan in this world today by the above statement as well as all of our sinful actions.Hence the Cross. This salvation is a free gift. No man participated in overcoming the problem of sin except the man Jesus Christ. The issue of sin and the condemnation it rightly deserves has been dealt with. "It is finished" (Jn.30:17). This salvation applies to all men which is why even one who never believes will be raised from the dead.
A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.But what has yet to be dealt with (in it's finality) among men is the problem of evil. This will occur at the resurrection. First to those who believe in Christ (those who belong to Him) then to those who don't. What is the Lord looking for at either of these two judgments? Faith. What is faith? It is the "meeting" between the Word and our willingness to believe in the Word. Overcoming sin does not require our participation. Overcoming evil and having faith does.
You will not find any single text or even a hint that this is stated or implied in Scripture. If we are justified by faith, and we are saved through our faith, then when we lose faith, become unfaithful, we are no longer justified and no longer being saved, we cannot be IN Christ. The ONLY way you are saved is to be IN Christ. ALL those promises of God apply to God. They do not apply to man. It is a mutual relationship and BOTH SIDES need to make promises. God made His and they are quite evident and we need not fear that He will renege on His. But where are your promises. You stated, probably, at your baptism that you would be faithful to him. Have you been so? But can you promise that faithfulness for yourself 10 years from now? Can you make the same finite promises as God has done toward you?No it is not changeable. If one is "in Christ" they are "in Christ" forever.
First, you already stated in your first comment I posted above that all men were given eternal life. This is correct. This is the Work of Christ on the Cross. All mankind were given to Him. In fact the entire world was given to Him and for Him. Col 1:15-20, it aligns perfectly with John 6:39 and II Cor 5:18-19.You can't say that someone who believes in Christ, who is given to Christ, who will never be lost by Christ, who has eternal life, can now turn around and be more powerful than God and undo His promises.
All men have life. You cannot equate faith with physical life. You can equate it with spiritual life which is what faith is to begin with. Faith cannot restore or gain eternal life, a physical life. But it can gain you eternal life WITH Christ, as opposed with an eternal life WITHOUT Christ. Go back to the texts of John6:39, Rom 5:18-19, Rev 20:12 and several other texts that all explicitedly state that all the dead, all of mankind will be raised in the last day. That is the anwer to the text of I Cor 15:20-22, as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The Resurrection is possible because of the Incarnated Christ. It made our spiritual relationship with God a possibility which was precluded by the fall. Man did not have a problem with union or communion with God. We were created specifically for that purpose. But death, the fall. prevented this from every occuring thus the need for Christ to intervene and correct the fall, not our relationship with God.The warnings you speak of are not that you might receive life, (the need of unbelievers). If you believe in the Gospel truth you already have it. It is so you might receive the reward of this life you have been given in both this life and the life to come.
Because it eliminated the fall which prevented man from having any consequence for his faith.Yes it has. It all begins with Christ's death on the Cross. There can be no faith apart from His death and resurrection.
Not when one has faith but solely because ONE is a human beings. Christ made all mankind righteous. The problem here in your view is that you do not separate the Work of Christ from the response of man to that work. The word righteous just means to be put into a correct relationship. It does not have a legal, forensic meaning here. The words, justify, redeem, reconcile all have the very same meaning. They all put one into a correct relationship. Christ did that for mankind to God. Man does it in relation of himself to Christ. The latter is by faith. We reconcile ourselves to God, that's why it is called justification by faith. Same thing, same meaning.The key word in what you quote is "revealed". The Lord's righteousness is revealed beginning when someone has faith. Do you think if no-one ever believes, the Lord is unrighteous? Of course you don't, but who would ever know He is righteous if not through faith?
But then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, even the Moslems are saved if they believe in God. The question is what kind of God, the one of your own making, or the ONE revealed to us. Believing is living IN Christ. Christianity is all about living. It is a way of life. But to live that life correctly one must know, have knowledge of the God who you are believing.What does the scripture say Ben. Whosoever believes? or whosoever understands? One doesn't have to understand all the mechanics of salvation in order to be saved. Stone the crows, if that were the case none of us would be saved.
It has everything to do with volition. We must remain, abide, and if we do, THEN we will be make holy, blameless, conformed to His Image, remain partakers of His Divine Nature. But if we permit sin to reign in our lives, lose faith, we are NO LONGER IN CHRIST. We shall not inherit the Kingdom promised in the last day. I Pet 1:3-5. We are KEPT through OUR FAITH. No faith, no salvation.Ho ho ho. What's this? You turning all Calvinist on me Ben? You debate black and blue with the Calvinists on the role of volition in receiving life but now when it comes to reaching maturity in that life you want to negate the role of volition?. It is very possible not to grow up "in Christ". Those who refuse the ongoing truths of category 3 do not reach maturity. They will enter heaven as spiritual babies, children or teenagers.
You are condemned every day for your sin. That is why we need to seek constant repentance of those sins. Our sins do convict us. We cannot live IN Christ and sin. If we do, we must confess them, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins. It is an ever active journey, an active effort to make sure the spirit rules in our lifes and not the flesh. If one is unfaithful, denies God, the God will deny him also. That is what God is being faithful about, His promises. He promised to remain with you, SO LONG AS YOU remained IN HIM. But if you forsake Him, having no faith, He will also forsake, deny you before His Father in Heaven. You cannot look at only one promise and then ignore the other, the opposite side.You can never be condemned for sin again and hence, cannot die (spiritually) and if you are alive at the time of the resurrection you will never even taste physical death. Even if one is unfaithful and clings to false doctrine beyond the faith of first importance (the Gospel), Christ remains faithful. He never abandons us.
You mean eternal life WITH Him. And you are right. He knows who is being faithful. He also knows when we are not and if we do not repent, do not return before death, He will also deny you before His Father. He does not throw pearls to swine. If you do not desire Him, He will freely permit you to go. Man is free, it is innate in man being in His Image. God created us to be free because He wanted a creature that would respond freely, not under compulsion or created in union. If this were so, Adam could never have fallen in the first place.He knows who belongs to Him and He is not about to give eternal life to one who could not or would not appreciate it. He isn't that wasteful or that stupid.
A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.
Which is a sin. Evil is the result of sin. just as for Adam. He sinned and spiritually separated himself from God. We do evil because we are sinful.Evil came BEFORE sin. That is, if you believe God created all angels without sin. Satan chose evil from a perfect state of being having been created by God.
Yes because he sinned as became separated from God. God banned him from heaven due to sin, not evil.It was Satan's own EVIL that tempted the woman and the man in the Garden. Not sin originating from the woman and man. The result of heeding evil was sin.
no that would have been an act of sin. Man separating himself from God. evil is not separation from God, but the result of sin which has already separated one from God.If Adam had thought of it all himself? That God was lying to him? And, then ate? Then that would have been an act of evil.
He sinned and was condemned to death for that sin. He did not take on a sin nature, but a fallen nature, a mortal nature, which causes us to sin. The flesh predominates in a mortal being. We all sin because we are mortal. We can even overcome sin. That is the point of being IN Christ. We overcome sin, thus we obviously would overcome evil, at least some of it to the extent we overcome sin.We sin because when Adam heeded the voice of evil, he fell. When he fell. He took on the sin nature which produces sin. As a result? We are all born with a sin nature. So? We all sin. BUT! That does not mean we are all evil. Evil is the agreeing with a lie over the truth.
Incorrect. Our flesh through the desires of that flesh tends rule our lives. If we permit it to do so, we are sinning. The desire leads to sin. We are all sinners because we all sin. We have not been able to overcome the flesh, will never overcome the flesh. We can simply alleviate the worst of man sinful acts, and with those we do, we seek forgiveness to remain IN Christ. We are all sinners and all sinners have been saved because of Grace. Rom 11:32.Sin causes impulses and desires that are contrary to God's intended design for man. We are all sinners. Some of all are sinners saved by grace. But, we are all sinners.
not quite, sin is submitting to the desire of the flesh. The flesh rules because it is fallen.It requires only submitting to a desire or impulse that comes from the sin nature.
He propitiated the sins of the world. He neither eradicated sin, nor the evil resulting from sinners. The rejection of Christ is the sin. Every act we do that is not in accordance with His will is a sin, It separates you from God. That is the definition of sin, missing the mark.Jesus died for the sins of the world. But, he did not die for evil. Evil is what rejects Christ.
Correct, it is missing the mark. It is missing to do His will, perfectly. Sinners cling to Christ because He alone can forgiven sins. We are in Christ ONLY because we have sought and been given forgiveness. We need to constantly keep ourselves reconciled to God because of sin.Sin is the inability to be perfect in function. Many sinners cling to Christ for their salvation. They do not reject Christ. To reject Christ (and God's Word) is evil, not simply sin.
He did not avoid evil. He brought on evil because of his sin. His sin of lust led to murder.David was a terrible sinner, but he avoided evil and clung to God's truth.
Moral has absolutely nothing to do with being saved. The difference between the sin of both is that David repented.In great contrast, the Pharisees were highly moral, but the defied truth and substituted for it with their own ways.
that is a contradiction to what you just stated. one can be moral, but being moral still makes one a sinner. But a moral perons need not be an evil person.The Pharisees were evil. Not just sinners
due to the sin of prideFalse doctrinal teachings = evil.
but may not be evil.Fornication = sin.
from the sin of pride again, or arrogance maybe, goes to your first statment.Teaching that God approves of fornication = evil.
Sawdust,
that is not what scripture says. There is a massive difference in propitiating or atoning for sin and overcoming sin. Christ did not overcome sin. If that were so, then there would be no sin in this world today. Christ did not eradicate sin, not even our fallen natures in this life, nor the working of Satan in this life. You have effectively negated Satan in this world today by the above statement as well as all of our sinful actions.
A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.
You will not find any single text or even a hint that this is stated or implied in Scripture. If we are justified by faith, and we are saved through our faith, then when we lose faith, become unfaithful, we are no longer justified and no longer being saved, we cannot be IN Christ. The ONLY way you are saved is to be IN Christ. ALL those promises of God apply to God. They do not apply to man. It is a mutual relationship and BOTH SIDES need to make promises. God made His and they are quite evident and we need not fear that He will renege on His. But where are your promises. You stated, probably, at your baptism that you would be faithful to him. Have you been so? But can you promise that faithfulness for yourself 10 years from now? Can you make the same finite promises as God has done toward you?
First, you already stated in your first comment I posted above that all men were given eternal life. This is correct. This is the Work of Christ on the Cross. All mankind were given to Him. In fact the entire world was given to Him and for Him. Col 1:15-20, it aligns perfectly with John 6:39 and II Cor 5:18-19.
No man will lose life. But that is not our problem. Our problem is that we can lose our spiritual connection, our spiritual life living IN Christ. It is why we all face spiritual death, eternal spiritual death because of sin in this world and our proclivity to permit it to lead our life instead of Christ.
We, man,. believer or unbeliever cannot undo the promises of Christ to us. Immpossibility because man had nothing to do in making them. We made our own promises which is what we need to keep. It is WE, as believers, that must be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20. Man is solely responsible for his own reconciliation to God. We do it by faith, (justification) we live it through our faith. Thus FAITH is the key to our personal, individual salvation of our souls.
All men have life. You cannot equate faith with physical life. You can equate it with spiritual life which is what faith is to begin with. Faith cannot restore or gain eternal life, a physical life. But it can gain you eternal life WITH Christ, as opposed with an eternal life WITHOUT Christ. Go back to the texts of John6:39, Rom 5:18-19, Rev 20:12 and several other texts that all explicitedly state that all the dead, all of mankind will be raised in the last day. That is the anwer to the text of I Cor 15:20-22, as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The Resurrection is possible because of the Incarnated Christ. It made our spiritual relationship with God a possibility which was precluded by the fall. Man did not have a problem with union or communion with God. We were created specifically for that purpose. But death, the fall. prevented this from every occuring thus the need for Christ to intervene and correct the fall, not our relationship with God.
Because it eliminated the fall which prevented man from having any consequence for his faith.
Not when one has faith but solely because ONE is a human beings. Christ made all mankind righteous. The problem here in your view is that you do not separate the Work of Christ from the response of man to that work. The word righteous just means to be put into a correct relationship. It does not have a legal, forensic meaning here. The words, justify, redeem, reconcile all have the very same meaning. They all put one into a correct relationship. Christ did that for mankind to God. Man does it in relation of himself to Christ. The latter is by faith. We reconcile ourselves to God, that's why it is called justification by faith. Same thing, same meaning.
But then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, even the Moslems are saved if they believe in God. The question is what kind of God, the one of your own making, or the ONE revealed to us. Believing is living IN Christ. Christianity is all about living. It is a way of life. But to live that life correctly one must know, have knowledge of the God who you are believing.
It has everything to do with volition. We must remain, abide, and if we do, THEN we will be make holy, blameless, conformed to His Image, remain partakers of His Divine Nature. But if we permit sin to reign in our lives, lose faith, we are NO LONGER IN CHRIST. We shall not inherit the Kingdom promised in the last day. I Pet 1:3-5. We are KEPT through OUR FAITH. No faith, no salvation.
You are condemned every day for your sin. That is why we need to seek constant repentance of those sins. Our sins do convict us. We cannot live IN Christ and sin. If we do, we must confess them, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins. It is an ever active journey, an active effort to make sure the spirit rules in our lifes and not the flesh. If one is unfaithful, denies God, the God will deny him also. That is what God is being faithful about, His promises. He promised to remain with you, SO LONG AS YOU remained IN HIM. But if you forsake Him, having no faith, He will also forsake, deny you before His Father in Heaven. You cannot look at only one promise and then ignore the other, the opposite side.
You mean eternal life WITH Him. And you are right. He knows who is being faithful. He also knows when we are not and if we do not repent, do not return before death, He will also deny you before His Father. He does not throw pearls to swine. If you do not desire Him, He will freely permit you to go. Man is free, it is innate in man being in His Image. God created us to be free because He wanted a creature that would respond freely, not under compulsion or created in union. If this were so, Adam could never have fallen in the first place.
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