Can I ask a question about sin and baptism?

[MariaRegina]

What I think everyone is trying to say is that, if, due to unforseen circumstances, a person is unable to go through a sacrament before falling asleep (baptism, confession, etc), we believe the Lord's grace and mercy can result in salvation for that person anyway because no matter what we do, God is ultimately in charge.

I think this is very much on target.

Even making a confession does not automatically make a person penitent--no more than sitting in a garage and saying "VROOM VROOM!" makes you a car.

I love this line -- it should be a part of "quotable quotes" somewhere!

GREAT POSTS, Matrona and Polycarp.

Have either of you read, For the Life of this World by Father Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory? He talks about the confusion that exists in the West regarding the Holy Mysteries, expecially Baptism, Holy Confession and Holy Communion. There is nothing "magical" about these Holy Sacraments. Without true repentence and true charity towards our fellow Christians... even love for those who hate us, we will not be saved; no matter how many times we go to confession and receive absolution.

If Photini and JefftheFinn are correct regarding the Tollhouses -- death will be a sorry rude awakening for a lot of Christians. I think we had better all repent, starting today, while we have breath!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.

P.S. That is why we need good parents, and Godparents for our children, who will take them to receive Holy Confession and Holy Communion in a timely manner as soon as they perceive right from wrong whether the child is 3 or 12 (realizing that 7 is not the magical age of reason), so that we all may be saved.

PPS. When Father Schmemann mentions the West, he is referring to all the errors that have crept into our thinking by the promoters of European rationalistic and modernistic philosophy in addition to the theology of the Protestants and Latin Catholics.

 

[Benedicta00]

My question is with regards to giving communion to infants, what about what Paul said, that we must discern the body and blood of Jesus? How can an infant discern?

 

[MariaRegina]

My question is with regards to giving communion to infants, what about what Paul said, that we must discern the body and blood of Jesus? How can an infant discern?

With the discernment issue, Protestants have ruled that babies should not be baptized. Is this right? No, not according to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Infant baptism is apostolic, and so is infant Holy Communion.

Didn't Christ our God tell the Apostles not to prevent the little ones from coming to Him? And hasn't the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church given the little children Holy Communion from the earliest Apostolic times. Why did the Latin Catholic Church stop giving babies Holy Communion?

 

[MariaRegina]

Forgot to add this:

Why should we excommunicate the little children who have committed no serious sin?

 

[Benedicta00]

How can a camel fit through the eye of a needle?

Didn't Christ our God tell the Apostles not to prevent the little ones from coming to Him? And hasn't the Holy Church has given the little children Holy Communion from the earliest Apostolic times. Why did the Latin Catholic Church stop giving babies Holy Communion?

The Church recived from the Holy Spirit a better understanding, I guess??

I guess it all goes back to the belief about original sin and how we view the soul of infants. An infant can not be guilty of any personal sin until he/she has reason so we see them as not needing Christ in the Eucharist to divinize them as we (the sick) do. Baptized infants are holy and perfect after baptism, they are in the perfect image of Christ. Jesus gave the Eucharist to us because we need it. If it were for the perfect then he would have given it to angels instead. Infants who are baptized are perfect.

 

[MariaRegina]

The Church recived from the Holy Spirit a better understanding, I guess??

I guess it all goes back to the belief about original sin and how we view the soul of infants. An infant can not be guilty of any personal sin until he/she has reason so we see them as not needing Christ in the Eucharist to divinize them as we (the sick) do. Baptized infants are holy and perfect after baptism, they are in the perfect image of Christ. Jesus gave the Eucharist to us because we need it. If it were for the perfect then he would have given it to angels instead. Infants who are baptized are perfect.

If infants who are baptized are perfect, then why do they sin as they get older? In linguistics, we are taught that you cannot be more perfect, only less perfect.

Holy Communion is for the forgiveness of sins (not deadly sins). So when young children and adults go the Holy Communion, they are forgiven their sins. However, the Church rightfully instructs us not to receive Holy Communion if we have any mortal (deadly) sins -- these we must confess before God and the Priest in Holy Confession. Here the Orthodox and the Latin Catholics agree.

Again, why should we excommunicate the little children who have committed no serious sin?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

A-HA!

You are Geek Orthodox!

No, I'm Irish Catholic, but thanks anyway.

 

[prodromos]

A-HA!

You are Geek Orthodox!

No, I'm Irish Catholic, but thanks anyway.

[size=-2]Psst, DF, she was responding to Oblio's post[/size]

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

[size=-2]Psst, DF, she was responding to Oblio's post[/size]

Oh, yeah.

 

[Matrona]

Oh, yeah.

It's okay DF. Irish Catholic is cool, too. I was making a pun off of "Greek Orthodox" because Oblio's a programmer. Geek Orthodox. Hehehehe.

 

[Benedicta00]

If infants who are baptized are perfect, then why do they sin as they get older? In linguistics, we are taught that you cannot be more perfect, only less perfect.

I don't know Elizabeth, the same reason why any of us sin, we weren't immaculately conceived. Is it impossible for a baptized sinner to be perfect? Look at the saints, these children are perfect like the saints are perfect. They can not discern the body and blood of our lord, they do not have reason, they can not willfully choose to rebel against God so therefore, he gave communion to us because we need it, they really do not, they are perfectly sanctified. Do you think a new born who cries out of a survival instinct that God instilled in him to have his needs met does so out of sin?

Holy Communion is for the forgiveness of sins (not deadly sins). So when young children and adults go the Holy Communion, they are forgiven their sins. However, the Church rightfully instructs us not to receive Holy Communion if we have any mortal (deadly) sins -- these we must confess before God and the Priest in Holy Confession. Here the Orthodox and the Latin Catholics agree.

A new born baby has no sin other than original and baptism removes original sin, ego they have no sin. There is no sin person/actual sin for communion to take away.

Again, why should we excommunicate the little children who have committed no serious sin?

Excommunicate?? I hope you are not using this is the Catholic definition of the word. Because they have no sin, they are perfectly sanctified, they don't need it. God gave Christ to us because we need it, if it were for those who have no sin he would have given it to the angles.

Do you think a baby knows what they are doing? That they know that they are sinning against God when a two year old say “no” to their parents? They need grace that comes from Christ to remove original sin but they do not need grace in the sense that we need it. Only those with reason need grace to be moved to repent.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I agree with Shelb5...

Jesus said "let the little children come to me" and that we have to "turn and become like children" so I have no doubt that little children are pure and sanctified after Baptism...in my opinion.

 

[Polycarp1]

[terrible Kafka pun mode]

A-HA!

You are Geek Orthodox!

Is that anything like ROCOR's Universal Robots?

[/terrible Kafka pun mode]

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

A new born baby has no sin other than original and baptism removes original sin, ego they have no sin.

I am a little confused about this due to a response on OBOB on a thread about the IC.

Do Catholics believe that we all bare the guilt of original sin or not? I was told on the IC thread that y'all don't believe in any personal guilt associated with OS, and that you believe that we are born only with the stain of OS, ie death and corruption. If there is no personal guilt associated with OS, then how does the newborn bare a responsibility for the OS that requires cleansing? If Catholics believe that there is no personal guilt associated with OS, and only the stain of death and corruption, then are you saying that baptism removes the susceptibility of the baby's human nature to death and corruption?

I am a little confused because I hear conflicting reports on what Catholics believe about OS depending upon whether we are talking about Baptism or the Immaculate Conception.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am a little confused about this due to a response on OBOB on a thread about the IC.

Do Catholics believe that we all bare the guilt of original sin or not? I was told on the IC thread that y'all don't believe in any personal guilt associated with OS, and that you believe that we are born only with the stain of OS, ie death and corruption. If there is no personal guilt associated with OS, then how does the newborn bare a responsibility for the OS that requires cleansing? If Catholics believe that there is no personal guilt associated with OS, and only the stain of death and corruption, then are you saying that baptism removes the susceptibility of the baby's human nature to death and corruption?

I am a little confused because I hear conflicting reports on what Catholics believe about OS depending upon whether we are talking about Baptism or the Immaculate Conception.

Hi OrthodoxTexan

I think we all get caught up in semantics and use terms in ways we shouldn't . .

I feel the same way about when Orthodox talk about the Immaculate Conception . . one says the Orthodox don't believe it, another says the Orthodox do, but also believe everyone is born immaculate . . . etc .


Here is something that might help . .

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=140

It speaks to your question directly . . . and I find it helpful as well . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi again OrthodoxTexan!

I want to say THANK YOU for your post . . it propelled me to look something up and I think I have a much better graps on why Orthodox and Catholics don't seem to agree on the issue of Original Sin!


I came across an Ukranian Orthodox site with some pages on both Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception . . and of course linking any discussion of one to the other . .

But I noticed something . . the way Original Sin was being discussed, there was no distinction being made between the concept of the "Stain" of original sin and the concept of "Guilt" of original sin . . .

Where the Catholic Church makes a distinction . .the Orthodox are not making a distinction between these two words!

But what I found to be the Orthodox treatment of the human condition due to the fall of Adam and Eve is very, very similar to, if not the same as, what Catholics mean when they speak of the "STAIN" of original sin . .

A LOT of this is simply semmantics and using the same terms but with different understandings . . very similar to the situation between Protestants and Catholic/Orthodox believers on the usage of the word "PRAY" . .

I think we are a lot closer than we give ourselves credit for!


Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

I am a little confused about this due to a response on OBOB on a thread about the IC.

Do Catholics believe that we all bare the guilt of original sin or not? I was told on the IC thread that y'all don't believe in any personal guilt associated with OS, and that you believe that we are born only with the stain of OS, ie death and corruption. If there is no personal guilt associated with OS, then how does the newborn bare a responsibility for the OS that requires cleansing? If Catholics believe that there is no personal guilt associated with OS, and only the stain of death and corruption, then are you saying that baptism removes the susceptibility of the baby's human nature to death and corruption?

I am a little confused because I hear conflicting reports on what Catholics believe about OS depending upon whether we are talking about Baptism or the Immaculate Conception.

We don’t bare personal guilt but we do receive the punishment due it, which is hell. O.Sin is contracted, not committed. We bare it in an analogy sense, we inherit by the virtue we are the human race, not because we are guilty of it. There is an old saying “Adam bit the apple but our teeth ache.”

Much like a person who will inherit diabetes from their parents, they will inherit it because they are from their seed and it is in the genes, not because they did something to cause it.

Adam lost grace for the human race and he lost the gifts for us the we once had and he instead won for us the nasty gifts from Satan, which is sin because of HIS sin. Does this make sense?

 

[Photini]

A new born baby has no sin other than original and baptism removes original sin, ego they have no sin. There is no sin person/actual sin for communion to take away.

This is true. But the Holy Eucharist is so much more than just for remission of sins. It unites us with God. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him" (John 6:56). Also the Eucharist draws us together into the people of God, His Church. It means we all become one with God, and one with each other. "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of one bread." (1 Cor 10:17). As a mother, I desire for my children to participate fully and experience this oneness in Christ.

 

[MariaRegina]

This is true. But the Holy Eucharist is so much more than just for remission of sins. It unites us with God. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him" (John 6:56). Also the Eucharist draws us together into the people of God, His Church. It means we all become one with God, and one with each other. "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of one bread." (1 Cor 10:17). As a mother, I desire for my children to participate fully and experience this oneness in Christ.

I agree, Photini!

My Godmother has told me that she has witnessed a lot of Eucharistic miracles when the little babies with bad infections received Holy Communion and were instantly healed. An Orthodox Priest wrote that many children in his parish, since becoming Orthodox, are not sickly anymore. This Orthodox Priest converted to Orthodoxy along with his entire parish.

The Byzantine Catholics allow their babies to receive all the Sacraments of Initiation just like the Orthodox: Baptism, Confirmation and Communion. This was the way it was pre-schism.

P.S. To be excommunicated means that one is not allowed to receive Communion. (It also implies not being able to receive all the other sacraments and services offered by the Church). However, if a person in the Orthodox Church doesn't receive Holy Communion for three Sundays in a row -- except for illness -- then he is technically considered excommunicated according to an ancient Holy Canon of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and he must go to confession before being allowed to receive Holy Communion. A Melkite Greek Catholic Priest told me this and showed me a copy of this Holy Canon -- and he enforced that canon.

 

[prodromos]

Baptized infants are holy and perfect after baptism, they are in the perfect image of Christ.

Michelle, please define "perfect", because if you mean what I think you mean we are not in agreement.

John.