Can I ask a question about sin and baptism?

[thereselittleflower]

Therese:

If you will check the CCC (I saw it posted over in OBOB) you will see that even the (Western) Catholic Church does not consider Baptism to be completed until after Confirmation. That is why it's strange that babies are not confirmed but left in an incomplete stage. These babies are not prepared -- they don't have the fullness of the Holy Spirit when they need it. Young children are having sex (at 5 and 6) due to all the sex ed in the schools. These children need the sacraments so that they can be strong in the faith.

Are you saying that Baptized Catholic Children who are being brought up in the faith are doing this? Your words make it sound like this is a common occurance. . . I think way too broad a brush is being used here. . . but if you have sources, please share them . . I would like to be aware of things like this . .


Peace in Him!

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi Chanter . . .


If infants are capable of sin, then when they are baptized, all sin they have committed up to that point is forgiven . . and then they can receive the sacrament of chrismation and Communion . . I can understand why they could then receive communion . . BUT . .going with this logic, that an infant of 1 month can sin, then it is only logical that a baby of 3 months can sin as well.

AND this raises another question for me . . I am sorry if it seems I am so dense about this . . I am not trying to be . . . If I understand everything that has been said, this baby can continue to receive the body and blood of our Lord . . BUT, this baby is unable to communicate to a priest, or anyone else either, a confession of sins to receive absolution (A 3 month old can't talk, can't really point, can't respond in any meaningful way). . . so would not the child be committing sin by partaking of communion with unconfessed sin on their soul? Is it not a sin to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist without first confessing one's sins?

This is why a child has godparents and hopefully Christian parents who will take him/her to church to receive Holy Confession as soon as he begins to understand that he is sinning. I reached that point at two years old but couldn't receive Confession until I was seven due to the Catholic ruling on this matter (and by the way, this is only a practice, not a doctrine in the Catholic Church -- it can change).

Mind you, most children do not commit deadly sins. But starting at the age of three, yes it is possible if they know it's wrong, it's a serious sin, and they do it anyway. Frankly I am glad that I converted to Orthodoxy as an adult, because the priest told me to reflect on my childhood sins, even when I was two years old, and I was shocked at what the Holy Spirit revealed to me. Thank God I didn't die. I might have gone to hell. My Catholic godmother lived across the country and only saw me four times in my life. This is wrong -- a godmother should be close to her godchild.

Also, to help me understand eveything better, let me ask this . .

If a baptism, chrismation, and communion happen all at once, and then the baby is fully a part of the Mystical Body of Christ . . . what would this baby's status be if the rites were interrupted and the baby only received Baptism?

If a child is baptized in an emergency because he/she is dying but survives miraculously, then as soon as possible, the Orthodox Priest starts the ceremony in the Church with the tonsuring, followed by Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion.

The newly baptized Catholic child is wrongly being denied important graces of confirmation and communion in the (Western-Rite) Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Christians are trying to encourage Rome to change her customs and return to the Ancient Ways of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

What would their status be in regards to the mystical body of Christ before they actually received chrismation and communion?

Please go check the CCC -- unconfirmed Christians are not fully Christians -- they lack the fullness of grace.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[MariaRegina]

Are you saying that Baptized Catholic Children who are being brought up in the faith are doing this? Your words make it sound like this is a common occurance. . . I think way too broad a brush is being used here. . . but if you have sources, please share them . . I would like to be aware of things like this . .

Please don't use "peace in Him" when you make a strong judgmental statement like this.

We studied this in my recent course in Marriage and Family and in my Health class. Today, my priest gave a very strong sermon about latch key children and their lack of supervision. He implored the parents to be responsible. He begged the godparents to be obedient to the Church in observing their responsibilities. Please check the facts yourself or take a college course. I must go study now. Bye.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Therese:

If you received Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation, Holy Communion and Holy Confession in the Orthodox Church, then the Catholic Church is not going to re-confirm you, are they?

You already have the fullness of the Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

P.S. I ask this because the Archdiocese of Los Angeles has wrongfully reconfirmed Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in the past. They are more careful now after an Eastern Catholic Bishop reprimanded them for so doing.

I personally knew and talked with three Eastern Catholics and Orthodox faithful to whom this happened. The Eastern Catholic Bishop addressed the church of which I was a member at that time. So this is not hearsay.

 

[MariaRegina]

I honestly feel that this thread is turning into a debate.

The questions were honestly answered.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I honestly feel that this thread is turning into a debate.

The questions were honestly answered.

H Chanter . .

I am very sorry you feel this way . . but I keep asking questions because either '

1) the actual question is not being answered . . in all the posts above, not one of them addressed the questions I was asking since my last post . .

or

2) I am not understanding the answer the way it is being worded . . .

If you don't want to answer my questions, then perhaps someone else will . . if you feel you are starting to debate, then it is a one sided debate . . so perhaps it is better for you to not answer the questons?

Really, I really am getting more and more confused by your answers . . so we are not communicating well . .

Poor communication does not a debate make . .


For instance - I asked this above:

Also, to help me understand eveything better, let me ask this . .

If a baptism, chrismation, and communion happen all at once, and then the baby is fully a part of the Mystical Body of Christ . . . what would this baby's status be if the rites were interrupted and the baby only received Baptism?

You responded with this:

If a child is baptized in an emergency because he/she is dying but survives miraculously, then as soon as possible, the Orthodox Priest starts the ceremony in the Church with the tonsuring, followed by Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion.

Your response did NOT answer my question at all!


I was concerned by a statement you made and posted this:

Are you saying that Baptized Catholic Children who are being brought up in the faith are doing this? Your words make it sound like this is a common occurance. . . I think way too broad a brush is being used here. . . but if you have sources, please share them . . I would like to be aware of things like this . .

You responded with an attack:

Please don't use "peace in Him" when you make a strong judgmental statement like this.

We studied this in my recent course in Marriage and Family and in my Health class. Today, my priest gave a very strong sermon about latch key children and their lack of supervision. He implored the parents to be responsible. He begged the godparents to be obedient to the Church in observing their responsibilities. Please check the facts yourself or take a college course. I must go study now. Bye.

What was so judgemental about my post? And if there was not a problem with Latch key children and lack of supervision in the Orthodox Church, why is your priest giving a strong sermon about it?

Yet, again, you did not answer my question! Instead, I found your response overly harsh . .


I also asked this:

If infants are capable of sin, then when they are baptized, all sin they have committed up to that point is forgiven . . and then they can receive the sacrament of chrismation and Communion . . I can understand why they could then receive communion . . BUT . .going with this logic, that an infant of 1 month can sin, then it is only logical that a baby of 3 months can sin as well.

AND this raises another question for me . . I am sorry if it seems I am so dense about this . . I am not trying to be . . . If I understand everything that has been said, this baby can continue to receive the body and blood of our Lord . . BUT, this baby is unable to communicate to a priest, or anyone else either, a confession of sins to receive absolution (A 3 month old can't talk, can't really point, can't respond in any meaningful way). . . so would not the child (I should have said baby to be more clear) be committing sin by partaking of communion with unconfessed sin on their soul? Is it not a sin to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist without first confessing one's sins?

And nothing in your response was directed at the specific questions asked!

I was specifically asking about

1) a 3 month old baby taking communion when they are unable to confess sin committed since they were baptized - would this baby not be committing sin by taking communion with unconfessed sin?

2) the orthodox position on someone of any age taking communion without first confessing their sins . .



If you no longer want to answer my questions just say so . . I am not forcing you to do anything . . and no one else is either . . It is not my purpose to upset you, just to understand what seems to me to be a confusing doctrine as presented thus far . ..

I will not get into a debate with you or anyone else concerning the answers . . but please, at least let them be real answers .. ones that answer the questions asked, not something else . .

Otherwise, only confussion is sown, and it is not being sown by me . .


Perhaps someone else here would be so kind to answer the specific questions asked . .


Peace in Him!

 

[MariaRegina]

The trouble is you keep digging and debating. Your questions become more complicated and what if.... which is not logical.

Why don't we end this now. You did mention the broad brush which can be considered a judgment call.

I have seen babies refuse Holy Communion many times. The priest tells me babies know when they shouldn't receive.

We gave you the Orthodox response - Holy Communion is given to babies for the forgiveness of sin, and you keep asking why? We don't question -- that is the Western mentality.

We just give thanks to God for graces bestowed.

I have reported this thread - it is debating.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Chanter

I think you should stop trying to answer my questions .. I did not ask anyone in particular, and your answers have only confused the issue for me . .

Even the response you gave above only begs the question I asked before about a baby of 3 months of age, if they are able to sin and if even upsetting others around them is sin, how can they take communion without committing additional sin?

You have never answered that question . . but the response above implies that the baby somehow knows enough to not take communion . . . well, does this mean that this same baby will always refuse communion, week after week until they are old enough to be able to confess their sin?

I don't think so . . I am sorry, this boggles the mind . . and if you want to take offense at the questions, then that is your choice . . no offense is intended . .. it seems the preference is to leave those of us who do not understand such reasoning, but want to, in the dark about it . .

And the comment about the "broad brush" ? I suggest that you re-read your post that led to that comment . . the insinuation you made about Catholics not giving chrismation until later and somehow that being linked to children having sex was rather low . . . I think you were the one being judgemental . . . and it was very offensive . .


If you can't answer the questions . .say so . . no biggie . . but don't attack me or wrongly accuse me or misrepresent my intentions . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Photini]

Perhaps someone else here would be so kind to answer the specific questions asked . .

I'll be back this afternoon Therese. There is an interesting section in a book I've read that addresses the issue of infants and Baptism...and the instance of babies who die before they are baptised.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I think you have been reading the Catholic Catechism.

NO, Andreas. The first sins we commit are thoughts. And babies have angry thoughts when denied food, clothing (wet diapers are no fun) and shelter (exposure to cold or heat). As a mom, let me tell you, they can be unreasonable at times.

There are children who have reached the age of reason at two years of age. My dad did, and so did I. It wasn't all the time, it was a gradual process, but I did know when I was doing something I shouldn't have. Do you think a little one is going to volunteer a mistake to get spanked? No way. They hide just like Adam and Eve did. Human nature doesn't change.

Orthodox Priests do hear the confessions of babies as young as three (perhaps younger) -- it all depends on the parents. All my priests have told me this. In fact, one Priest went to Holy Confession when he was four years of age -- that is one reason why he is a priest today.

Hope this helps.

Are you serious?

 

[prodromos]

Dear Therese,

the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ are also for the washing away of sin. Not one person who receives Holy Communion is actually worthy to receive, yet we rely on God's mercy and compassion and pray that we will not be consumed.

I recommend you read the Pre-Communion Prayers that we read ourselves and on behalf of our children and god-children before we partake of Holy Communion. I think they might help you get a better understanding of the position of all before the chalice, children and adults alike.

Earlier in the thread you quoted and Orthodox website on Baptism and suggested that what was being posted by others in this thread was at odds with the website. I hope you realise that the website did not give the complete picture any more than quoting John 3:16 would give a complete picture of salvation.

You also asked this

If a baptism, chrismation, and communion happen all at once, and then the baby is fully a part of the Mystical Body of Christ . . . what would this baby's status be if the rites were interrupted and the baby only received Baptism?

What would their status be in regards to the mystical body of Christ before they actually received chrismation and communion?

I would ask what you consider the status of someone awaiting baptism but was suddenly killed in a car accident on their way to church. You see, there are proper procedures which should be followed, but in the end it is God who does the work and we ultimately have to rely on His mercy. Your questions seem to be trying to force the sacraments into a legalistic framework where they simply do not fit. If a sick baby dies after Baptism, before receiving the sacraments of Chrismation and Holy Communion, we have no doubt that the baby is fully a member of the Church, the body of Christ. If the baby does not die, but instead recovers, then it is necessary to complete the initiation rites as soon as possible.
The thief on the cross did not go through any of the sacraments, he was neither baptised, chrismated, nor did he have confession, yet we know that he is in paradise based on the promise of our Lord. He relied solely on God's mercy.

I hope this has been helpful.

John.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Do other Orthodox believe a 3 year-old can commit mortal sins and go to Hell?

 

[prodromos]

My Catholic godmother lived across the country and only saw me four times in my life. This is wrong -- a godmother should be close to her godchild.

Dear Elizabeth,

though I must have seen him a few times as a young child, I have no memory of my Godfather. I used to feel bitter about this until one day while talking to my dad on the phone, he mentioned that he had run into my Godfather the other day and passed on that he was always praying for me. When I heard those words, all my former bitterness evapourated in an instant, for although I had no real relationship with him, he had always done for me the best thing he could have, the most needful, and I pray that I can be half the Godfather that he was to me, to my own Godchild.

John.

 

[prodromos]

Do other Orthodox believe a 3 year-old can commit mortal sins and go to Hell?

I don't believe we make distinctions between mortal and venial sins, but no.

1 Corinthians 7:14***For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

[Oblio]

Thank you John for re-railing (I love inventing new words ) this thread . I hope it stays on the tracks.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

chanter-

Did I understand your post correctly? Do you believe a 3 year old can commit sins worthy of Hell...and get sent to Hell?

 

[Oblio]

All sins are worthy of Hell. Hell is being consumed by God's love, unable to recieve or give the love that is typefied in the relationships of the persons of the Holy Trinity. We do not have a formulaic scholastic approach that grades sin and specifies which are danmable if not repented of prior to death.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

All sins are worthy of Hell. Hell is being consumed by God's love, unable to recieve or give the love that is typefied in the relationships of the persons of the Holy Trinity. We do not have a formulaic scholastic approach that grades sin and specifies which are danmable if not repented of prior to death.

Ok, but I'm asking if a three year old can be sent to Hell, according to your beliefs?

As for your post...are you saying any sin can send you to Hell? What if you commit a minor sin and then die before confession?

 

[prodromos]

If it was left up to God's justice then we are all ****** to hell. Praise God for His mercy!

 

[Oblio]

What if you commit a minor sin and then die before confession?

Confessions are not made because we have a 'go to Hell' bit set in our soul and it needs to be reset prior to death (hey I'm a programmer ). This is an example of one of those questions that Orthodox don't even think to ask (or answer). We confess and repent because it is commanded of us and without these Mysteries we would not continue on the path to Theosis.