Can I ask a question about sin and baptism?

[MariaRegina]

Hi Chanter . . I am alittle confused, and I did not think this was an issue before . . but it seems you are saying above, that a person does not become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ unitl they receive Holy Chrismation and Communion . . . am i understnding you right? That when one is Baptized they are not yet become a member of teh Mystical Body of Christ?

This seems to say the contrary:

As was mentioned above, the Church of Christ is the Mystical Body of Christ, the Head and Chief Cornerstone of which is Our Savior Jesus Christ (EPH. 1:22; 2:20-22; 4:15, 5:23: COL. 1:18; 1 C0R. 3:11; MATT. 21:42). All who acknowledge their faith in Him, and who through the Holy Sacrament of Baptism enter into the life of re­birth in Christ, and are joined together in the Body of Christ’s Church, are members of the Church (EPH. 1:23; 4:16; 1 COR. 12:27; C0L. 2:17, 19). The life of the Church is the continuation of the Incarnate Life of Christ in His Faithful. After fulfilling the Mystery of our salvation, Our Saviour ascended into Heaven, but He remains perpetually within the Mystical Body of His Church in His Divine, Life-giving and all-regenerating Entity.
​

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/woronen_what_is_orthodoxy.htm

did I misunderstand you or is there disagreement with the above?

There is no disagreement with the above. The Orthodox Priest carefully explained to me that it is the act of Holy Communion which joins us to Christ's Church, which is the Body of Christ. Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation pave the way for Holy Communion. Christ said: "Unless you eat of my Body and drink of My Blood, you shall not have life within you." (I'm quoting from memory here.) His Precious Body and Blood give us our life in the Church and join us to His Body.

We enter into the life of the Church by Holy Baptism ... but we are joined with Christ's Precious Body and Blood through reception of Holy Communion. This is why the Orthodox were puzzled when the Bishop of Rome denied Holy Communion to infants -- they were in effect, excommunicated. Do you see this? Byzantine Catholics now have infant communion, but it wasn't always so but only recently (around 1998?) that this latinization denying His little ones Holy Communion was done away with. Didn't Christ tell the Apostles not to deny the little one His Presence?

 

[MariaRegina]

Wonderful post, Chanter!

Therese, I think what Chanter meant is that baptized children are members of the Body of Christ--and that, by virtue of their being members of the Body of Christ, it is wrong to deny them chrismation and communion (or to deny that they are indeed members of the Body of Christ) because they haven't reached some arbitrary "age of reason".

Yes, Matrona, this is also correct.

Holy Chrismation seals and perfects Holy Baptism by the sending down of the Holy Spirit.

Holy Communion joins us to the very life and Body of Christ by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

The Priest explained to me that if I were to receive Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation but was forbidden to receive Holy Communion (or declined it), then I would not be fully Orthodox. By my reception of Holy Communion I show that I am in union with the whole Orthodox Church and with Christ, Who is our Head.

 

[MariaRegina]

Matrona,

The Priest told me that he could not receive someone into Orthodoxy if they were in an irregular marriage, because he could not give them Holy Communion.

Catholic Catechumens, I've been told, can receive Baptism and Confirmation, but be denied Holy Communion if they are living with someone in an irregular marriage. That is strange to me.

On the contrary, in the Holy Orthodox Church, this would not be allowed, because the Orthodox Priests know that a person is more responsible to God after his Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. The Orthodox Priest only would Baptize and Confirm a truly repentent Catechumen who promised to live the Holy Faith and to the best of his ability would not soil his Baptismal garment. Holy Communion always follows Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation.

This is precisely why St. Constantine the Great did not receive the Holy Mysteries until he was on his deathbed. He was a warrior and did not want to soil his baptismal garment by killing someone on the battlefield.

 

[MariaRegina]

Sorry, folks, it is late.

Holy Baptism cleanses us from all sin as we die to Christ and rise with Him a new creation.

Holy Chrismation gives one the fullness of the faith, by the Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Holy Communion joins us with the Holy Church so that we become a member of Christ's Holy Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.

All three of these Holy Mysteries are part of the Christening ceremony. They are rightfully called the Holy Mysteries of Initiation.

Our Holy Orthodox Church bids us not to reveal to our enemies the Holy Mysteries. And I have just talked about them over cyberspace. This is one reason why I dislike debating about these issues with people who are not of our Holy Orthodox Faith. Misunderstandings can occur and distortions can be made that can cause confusion.

 

[thereselittleflower]

There is no disagreement with the above. The Orthodox Priest carefully explained to me that it is the act of Holy Communion which joins us to Christ's Church, which is the Body of Christ. Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation pave the way for Holy Communion. Christ said: "Unless you eat of my Body and drink of My Blood, you shall not have life within you." (I'm quoting from memory here.) His Precious Body and Blood give us our life in the Church and join us to His Body.

We enter into the life of the Church by Holy Baptism ... but we are joined with Christ's Precious Body and Blood through reception of Holy Communion. This is why the Orthodox were puzzled when the Bishop of Rome denied Holy Communion to infants -- they were in effect, excommunicated. Do you see this? Byzantine Catholics now have infant communion, but it wasn't always so but only recently (around 1998?) that this latinization denying His little ones Holy Communion was done away with. Didn't Christ tell the Apostles not to deny the little one His Presence?

So, you ares aying that if someone is baptized, but has not yet received communion, that they are not part of the Body of Christ?

What is the status if one who is Baptized, but has not yet received communion?


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, folks, it is late.

Holy Baptism cleanses us from all sin as we die to Christ and rise with Him a new creation.

Holy Chrismation gives one the fullness of the faith, by the Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Holy Communion joins us with the Holy Church so that we become a member of Christ's Holy Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.

All three of these Holy Mysteries are part of the Christening ceremony. They are rightfully called the Holy Mysteries of Initiation.

Our Holy Orthodox Church bids us not to reveal to our enemies the Holy Mysteries. And I have just talked about them over cyberspace. This is one reason why I dislike debating about these issues with people who are not of our Holy Orthodox Faith. Misunderstandings can occur and distortions can be made that can cause confusion.

Chanter . . . you are going against the Orthodox Church to say what you have said above here?


Peace in Him!

 

[Epiphany]

The parents take the child to the priest, who then goes up to the iconostasis with the child and points to the Icon of Christ. Then the priest gently tells the child that anything that he has done wrong he should tell Christ and the Priest and not hold anything back. He further reassures the child that he will be forgiven and his sins forgotten. The child knows when he has done something wrong, confesses his sins, listens to the advice of the Priest, and bows his head to receive absolution.

A couple of years ago, I saw a three year old chubby girl go to Holy Confession. She was willing to do so along with the 6 and 7 year old students who likewise confessed on Lazarus Saturday, which is the normal time to hear First Confessions in the Orthodox Church.

To Life Immortal

Wow Chanter, good post! I was going to ask the same question. I haven't gone to Confession in a long time; I hope to correct that very soon

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~

 

[Orthosdoxa]

The way baptism was explained to me was that it is a vehicle of God's grace, as all sacraments are. God pours out His grace through it, His divinizing grace. When I baptize my future children, I won't be doing it necessarily thinking of what sin they may or may not have committed up to that point (isn't it when they're 40 days old?? I think??). I'll be doing it with the joy of knowing that God's grace is flowing out upon them, sin or not! Knowing that Catholics also understand baptism as more than a swim and the Eucharist as more than a snack, that it's something that God does, not something we gain by "properly understanding it", I'm always baffled by the fact that they deny these things to their children. That's another thread though, I guess.

And if I may dare to answer for Chanter - I think she was saying we don't like to debate holy things and leave them out in the open for God's enemies. I don't think she's gone against the Church. She was stating that she was being careful and not wanting to delve into this too much in an arena where so much can be so easily misunderstood. There are several Protestant boards where I don't even post anymore, because of this - they mock the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord, and they mock the Grace of the Sacraments. "Debating" with them as to how foolish their blasphemous mockery is does no good. We must be most careful not to allow this happen. That's a more extreme example than what is happening here, but I think that was essentially her point - to not throw holy things around carelessly in debate where so much can be twisted into something else. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Chanter!)

 

[thereselittleflower]

To Life Immortal

Wow Chanter, good post! I was going to ask the same question. I haven't gone to Confession in a long time; I hope to correct that very soon

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~

I am finding this also fascinating and strange, as I was brought up Eastern Orthodox, and both my Grandfather and Uncle were/are priests . . and I was never given 1st confession until I had reached the age of reason . . we were at a Church camp, and my uncle had us come one by one to him to receive the sacrament of confession . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

The way baptism was explained to me was that it is a vehicle of God's grace, as all sacraments are. God pours out His grace through it, His divinizing grace. When I baptize my future children, I won't be doing it necessarily thinking of what sin they may or may not have committed up to that point (isn't it when they're 40 days old?? I think??). I'll be doing it with the joy of knowing that God's grace is flowing out upon them, sin or not! Knowing that Catholics also understand baptism as more than a swim and the Eucharist as more than a snack, that it's something that God does, not something we gain by "properly understanding it", I'm always baffled by the fact that they deny these things to their children. That's another thread though, I guess.

And if I may dare to answer for Chanter - I think she was saying we don't like to debate holy things and leave them out in the open for God's enemies. I don't think she's gone against the Church. She was stating that she was being careful and not wanting to delve into this too much in an arena where so much can be so easily misunderstood. There are several Protestant boards where I don't even post anymore, because of this - they mock the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord, and they mock the Grace of the Sacraments. "Debating" with them as to how foolish their blasphemous mockery is does no good. We must be most careful not to allow this happen. That's a more extreme example than what is happening here, but I think that was essentially her point - to not throw holy things around carelessly in debate where so much can be twisted into something else. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Chanter!)

Do you feel that my asking a question to clarify what I find confusing (what is being said by Orthodox bretheren here about their faith) is debating, even in a less extreme form?

I have searched on line for information and I find it to be confusing unclear, and my personal experience within Eastern Orthodoxy is a odds with what I see mentioned here . . so I want to understand, because up till now, it is not clear . .

But if you all do not want to talk about it any more, then say so, and I will stop trying to seek clarification . . this is not a debate board for me, and I am not trying to debate, but to understand what you all say . . but if that is perceived as debate, then let me know . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Polycarp1]

I recall in our catechesis when joining the Episcopal Church, the priest commented that we Westerners tend to focus on fixing what's wrong, i.e., sin and its forgiveness, rather than moving toward what's right, and that the new (at that time) Catechism drew on an Eastern focus to emphasize the positive graces of Baptism rather than the reparative graces. With that in mind, here's the Episcopal Catechism on Holy Baptism, for critique and comment with reference to the questions being dealt with here, which I hope its mixture of Western and Eastern piety will help clarify:

Holy Baptism
Q What is Holy Baptism?

A Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

Q What is the outward and visible sign in Baptism?

A The outward and visible sign in Baptism is water, in which the person is baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Q What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism?

A The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in the Holy Spirit.

Q What is required of us at Baptism?

A It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins, and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Q Why then are infants baptized?

A Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in the Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption by God.

Q How are the promises for infants made and carried out?

A Promises are made for them by their parents and sponsors, who guarantee that the infants will be brought up within the Church, to know Christ and be able to follow him.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Sorry, Therese - I didn't mean to make it sound like you can't ask for clarification. I probably should have just stayed out of it. I just think Chanter was expressing caution, which I agree with. I personally do not feel that you have crossed any lines or anything.

I think it's surprising that you were raised Orthodox but that these things were never made clear. Not all parishes catechize well, I suppose.

I hope your question about baptism has been answered? We do not believe we are washing away original sin - rather that God's divinizing grace is being poured out in the sacrament.

What kind of information are you looking for? You mentioned searching on-line - there is much good info on-line, but it must be handled cautiously as well - there are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing out there! I am a former Baptist turned Orthodox just in the last year - I read and read til my eyes practically bled, then read some more! I had a lot to learn about the Faith. If you know more specifically what you want to know, I'd be happy to refer you to books/articles that address it. Trust me, whatever you want to know, I've read about it somewhere.

Though, this doesn't mean you can't ask for clarification here, of course...

I think I'm going to go hide under my rock before I cause any more confusion...

 

[Matrona]

I am finding this also fascinating and strange, as I was brought up Eastern Orthodox, and both my Grandfather and Uncle were/are priests . . and I was never given 1st confession until I had reached the age of reason . . we were at a Church camp, and my uncle had us come one by one to him to receive the sacrament of confession . .

Yeah, that's right, you don't get confession in the Orthodox Church until you're old enough to know what you're saying. It doesn't make any sense to send an infant up to the iconostasis for confession when he doesn't even know where he is.

But as an infant Orthodox Christian, you get baptized, chrismated, and communicated, just like anyone else. Young age is not an excuse in and of itself for an Orthodox Christian to be denied communion.

 

[prodromos]

My daughters, aged six and ten, both have confession and both understand and appreciate the sacrament they are partaking of. Its their dumb ol' dad who still struggles with baring his innermost secrets to his Father/confessor, though that is slowly improving (hopefully it is because I am getting control over my sinful nature ). My son is eighteen months and has been having communion at the very least, weekly, and at times, daily since he was baptised at 40 days (give or take a day or two). He loves kissing the icons too and points out Christ and Panagia

John.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Personally, I wish the Catholic Church did give communion to infants .. I can personally see no reason to withhold it, but I do accept that the Church does not do so . .

I guess what I am still struggling with is the idea that there is "one Baptism for the remission of sins. . " and I am looking for the understanding of how sins of an infant (a month or so old) are remmitted in the Orthodox understanding . .what sins are there that a one month old could have in the Orthodox understanding?

I understand that Baptism is a sacrament conveying God's Grace to the soul . . and the positive ways to express this without even mentioning sin . .

But we say "We believe in . . . . one baptism for the remiision of sins"


But if there is no original sin, or actual sin . . then how is the infant of one month receiving remission of sins?

Perhaps I am stuck on looking at this in one way, and you all are trying to answer it in another and I am not seeing it, and not understanding it . .


But part of the confusion for me is that it seems that on one hand, the Orthodox here are saying that Baptism brings us into the Mystical Body of Christ, but then on the other hand, it doesn't . . Chrismation and Communion do this . .

So I don't feel I really understand what you all have said so far on this issue . it seems as though you are contradicting yourselves, though I understand you don't see it that way, so I am not understanding . .

Does that help for you all to help me understand what you are saying?

And PLEASE Anonykat . . Do NOT crawl under a rock! I appreciate your input as much as anyone else's here.

Peace in Him!

 

[Orthosdoxa]

the Orthodox here are saying that Baptism brings us into the Mystical Body of Christ, but then on the other hand, it doesn't . . Chrismation and Communion do this . .

An infant being brought into the Church will receive all of these at the same time.

Are you looking at this as an either/or? It's really a both/and.

 

[MariaRegina]

Personally, I wish the Catholic Church did give communion to infants .. I can personally see no reason to withhold it, but I do accept that the Church does not do so . .

I guess what I am still struggling with is the idea that there is "one Baptism for the remission of sins. . " and I am looking for the understanding of how sins of an infant (a month or so old) are remmitted in the Orthodox understanding . .what sins are there that a one month old could have in the Orthodox understanding?

I understand that Baptism is a sacrament conveying God's Grace to the soul . . and the positive ways to express this without even mentioning sin . .

But we say "We believe in . . . . one baptism for the remiision of sins"


But if there is no original sin, or actual sin . . then how is the infant of one month receiving remission of sins?

Perhaps I am stuck on looking at this in one way, and you all are trying to answer it in another and I am not seeing it, and not understanding it . .


But part of the confusion for me is that it seems that on one hand, the Orthodox here are saying that Baptism brings us into the Mystical Body of Christ, but then on the other hand, it doesn't . . Chrismation and Communion do this . .

So I don't feel I really understand what you all have said so far on this issue . it seems as though you are contradicting yourselves, though I understand you don't see it that way, so I am not understanding . .

Does that help for you all to help me understand what you are saying?

And PLEASE Anonykat . . Do NOT crawl under a rock! I appreciate your input as much as anyone else's here.

Peace in Him!

Thanks Anonykat ... you probably explained the mystery better than I could.

Receive me now, O Son of God, as a participant in Your Mystical Supper: for I will not betray Your Mystery to Your enemies, nor give You a kiss like Judas, but like the thief, I confess You: remember me, Lord, in Your Kingdom.

After Holy Chrismation, the Orthodox Priest says to the newly baptized and confirmed: "You have been purified, illuminated and sanctified..."

Purified by the Holy waters of Holy Baptism,
illuminated by the "Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit," and
sanctified by the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Like other Orthodox members of this forum have already stated, Baptism is putting on Christ. It's putting our foot in the door. It's entering the Church. It's only the first baby step on our journey.

A child who has not sinned (knowingly and unknowingly, deliberately and indeliberately) would be rare. An infant can unknowingly upset his mother and the members of his church by his loud cries in church, and all attempts to appease him are all in vain = an unknown sin. An infant can indeliberately cause strife in the home by his incessant demands. Not all babies are of a sweet temperament. Sadly, most parents aren't either! We're all sinners.

We Eastern Orthodox Catholics receive all three sacraments together ... the Western Catholics have sadly separated these sacraments. This is the source of the confusion in the Western Church. Explanations must be made for the separation.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[Polycarp1]

For anyone interested, the formula used at Chrismation in the Episcopal Church is "{Name}, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism and marked as Christ's own forever. Amen."

 

[MariaRegina]

Therese:

If you will check the CCC (I saw it posted over in OBOB) you will see that even the (Western) Catholic Church does not consider Baptism to be completed until after Confirmation. That is why it's strange that babies are not confirmed but left in an incomplete stage. These babies are not prepared -- they don't have the fullness of the Holy Spirit when they need it.

In the general population, young children are having sex (at 5 and 6) due to all the sex ed in the schools. Christian children need the sacraments so that they can be strong in the faith.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thanks Anonykat ... you probably explained the mystery better than I could.



After Holy Chrismation, the Orthodox Priest says to the newly baptized and confirmed: "You have been purified, illuminated and sanctified..."

Purified by the Holy waters of Holy Baptism,
illuminated by the "Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit," and
sanctified by the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Like other Orthodox members of this forum have already stated, Baptism is putting on Christ. It's putting our foot in the door. It's entering the Church. It's only the first baby step on our journey.

A child who has not sinned (knowingly and unknowingly, deliberately and indeliberately) would be rare. An infant can unknowingly upset his mother and the members of his church by his loud cries in church, and all attempts to appease him are all in vain = an unknown sin. An infant can indeliberately cause strife in the home by his incessant demands. Not all babies are of a sweet temperament. Sadly, most parents aren't either! We're all sinners.

We Eastern Orthodox Catholics receive all three sacraments together ... the Western Catholics have sadly separated these sacraments. This is the source of the confusion in the Western Church. Explanations must be made for the separation.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

Hi Chanter . . .

I accept that this is how you understand it to be regarding infants . .

I have a hard time understanding how this could be though and I am a little shocked as I never was exposed to such an understanding in the Orthodox Church . . ever . . that infants of a month old can sin, simply because they cry and upset adults around them . .. and I continued to attend mass until I left highschool . .

This goes against everything I understand . . . and it is not making sense to me . . I am not attacking, but really trying to understand . .

If infants are capable of sin, then when they are baptized, all sin they have committed up to that point is forgiven . . and then they can receive the sacrament of chrismation and Communion . . I can understand why they could then receive communion . . BUT . .going with this logic, that an infant of 1 month can sin, then it is only logical that a baby of 3 months can sin as well . .

AND this raises another question for me . . I am sorry if it seems I am so dense about this . . I am not trying to be . . . If I understand everything that has been said, this baby can continue to receive the body and blood of our Lord . . BUT, this baby is unable to communicate to a priest, or anyone else either, a confession of sins to receive absolution (A 3 month old can't talk, can't really point, can't respond in any meaningful way). . . so would not the child be committing sin by partaking of communion with unconfessed sin on their soul? Is it not a sin to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist without first confessing one's sins?

I am not trying to create an debate. . I really want to understand this . . I am finding a real contradiction here that I am having trouble resolving . .




Also, to help me understand eveything better, let me ask this . .

If a baptism, chrismation, and communion happen all at once, and then the baby is fully a part of the Mystical Body of Christ . . . what would this baby's satus be if the rites were interrupted and the baby only received Baptism?

What would their status be in regards to the mystical body of Christ before they actually received chrismation and communion?

This will help me understand better what has been said . .

Thank you all in advance and for taking the time to answer already . . I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this! . .


Peace in Him!