Can Angels sin?

[he-man]

They will be, since it appears they are not repentant.
Just like man actually.

That is funny, dead means dead, it doesn't mean wait 6,000 years. That would make them conditionally immortal. Did you read the post on Oriental dualism? Angels are Spiritual beings and not subject to death. Even Christ was created lower than the Angels being born through the legs of Mary but blessed by the Holy Spirit. Christ had to die so why would dualistic devils not be subject to death. Christ was given immortality but not until after he first descended into hell. Ephesians 4:9

 

[Hieronymus]

That is funny, dead means dead, it doesn't mean wait 6,000 years. That would make them conditionally immortal. Did you read the post on Oriental dualism? Angels are Spiritual beings and not subject to death.

Normally speaking, that's probably right, i believe so too.
But when God says they will be(come) mortal like man, they will be(come) mortal like man.
They are subject to God obviously, so when God says so, it is so.

Even Christ was created lower than the Angels being born through the legs of Mary but blessed by the Holy Spirit. Christ had to die so why would dualistic devils not be subject to death. Christ was given immortality but not until after he first descended into hell. Ephesians 4:9

Sorry i think i'm not following you now.
Now you say they can be mortal?

 

[he-man]

Normally speaking, that's probably right, i believe so too.
But when God says they will be(come) mortal like man, they will be(come) mortal like man.
They are subject to God obviously, so when God says so, it is so.Sorry i think i'm not following you now.
Now you say they can be mortal?

If Christ was created mortal why would you think devils are created better than Christ? Where did you get the theory that God says the devils will become mortal like man? Psalms 82 says it is talking about men, not Angels. Matthew Henry says it is talking about rulers, prince's, who shall die.

 

[Hieronymus]

O, i8 see, you think Psalms 82 is about men, who then will become mortal like men... or... hmm...
Yes, that seems to be the modern view about it.
Not clear to me why though, maybe because of Jesus alluding to it to the Pharisees.

 

[he-man]

O, i8 see, you think Psalms 82 is about men, who then will become mortal like men... or... hmm...
Yes, that seems to be the modern view about it.
Not clear to me why though, maybe because of Jesus alluding to it to the Pharisees.

Matthew Henry says it is talking about rulers, prince's, who are evil and will die like men. John 10:34 I don't think devils have the law . Exodus 4:22 it was all of Israel to whom he was speaking, their Judge's, etc.

 

[Hieronymus]

O i see.
But the nations are divided among the sons of God earlier, see Deuteronomy 32:8
Many translations (masoretic text based) say "sons of Israel" but that's apparently incorrect.
But it's this council of gods God stands in the midsts of in Psalms 82.
So it's not "men who become mortal like men" (which wouldn't make sense i.m.o.), but the gods that rule the nations.
The nations were never divided among the sons of Israel.

 

[he-man]

O i see.
But the nations are divided among the sons of God earlier, see Deuteronomy 32:8
Many translations (masoretic text based) say "sons of Israel" but that's apparently incorrect.
But it's this council of gods God stands in the midsts of in Psalms 82.
So it's not "men who become mortal like men" (which wouldn't make sense i.m.o.), but the gods that rule the nations.

Exodus 4:22 all of Israel was being spoken to and in particular her Judge's.

 

[Denadii]

Since God created everything can He be accused of creating bad? Psalms 148:1-2

God gave every creature He created free will. Satan and his cohorts CHOSE to rebel and leave heaven.

 

[he-man]

God gave every creature He created free will. Satan and his cohorts CHOSE to rebel and leave heaven.

There is no devil, Satan, or fallen Angels.

 

[Denadii]

There is no devil, Satan, or fallen Angels.

Uh....Ok

 

[1213]

Can Angels sin?
Since God created everything can He be accused of creating bad? Psalms 148:1-2

Sin is basically same as reject God. Bible seems to say some angels rejected God and that is a sin.

If God creates bad, he can be accused for it. I don’t think he created bad, he allowed people to reject him and turn into bad.

 

[he-man]

Uh....Ok

Who are those that reject demons and Satan?
1651 Thomas Hobbes
1695 Calvinist Balthasser Bekker
1727 Sir Isaac Newton
1732 Aurthur Sykes
1742 Nathaniel Lardner
1755 Richard Meade
1791 William Ashdowne
1804 John Simpson
1842 John Epps
Joseph Meade on 1 Timothy 4:1 saysit is the objective genitive doctrine of heathen men and pagn idols, an apelliation of individuals or any earthly enemy of the Church and that spells cast by demons were simply epilepsy or lunatics. Joh 20:10. [Isaac Newton's Religious Views]

 

[Denadii]

Who are those that reject demons and Satan?
1651 Thomas Hobbes
1695 Calvinist Balthasser Bekker
1727 Sir Isaac Newton
1732 Aurthur Sykes
1742 Nathaniel Lardner
1755 Richard Meade
1791 William Ashdowne
1804 John Simpson
1842 John Epps
Joseph Meade on 1 Timothy 4:1 saysit is the objective genitive doctrine of heathen men and pagn idols, an apelliation of individuals or any earthly enemy of the Church and that spells cast by demons were simply epilepsy or lunatics. Joh 20:10. [Isaac Newton's Religious Views]

Big names, learned men, and wrong on this. Imagine!!

 

[he-man]

Big names, learned men, and wrong on this. Imagine!!

 

[Denadii]

View attachment 208327

If Newton believed that, then he was in opposition to the bible. Jesus IS God

 

[Blade]

What is written? Sin was FOUND...not know before..but found in Satan. Adam and Eve sin.. God has to ASK "where are you"? God has to ask "who told you". God has to ASK Cain wheres your brother. God has to come down to see if the cries He has heard are as bad. On and on. Some foundation.

Now my view is.. Angels that fell.. saying sorry what ever..so what? See they were created with NO SIN around them at all. They had ALL Gods glory power everything around them. They knew what they were giving up. What ELSE could God offer? So.. they get kicked out. When this fall happen.. we dont know. It had happen before Adam was created.

Now the reason Satan and his angels and demons can STILL do all this evil is WE gave them this world. Adam and Eve sinned. By that sin all God gave Adam and Eve.. this earth and the 1st heaven (sky) we handed over to him. Satan told Jesus as he show'd Him all nations and what not in a moments time. Said this was given, handed over to me and I can give it to who ever I want.

Jesus... the man that hand 1000 or so demons. Said what? Have you come to torment us before our TIME. Before out time? That means there is a time limit on this. They do not obey God in everthing.. or some would not be in chains. There are those that are so evil.. GOD can not control them. THOSE will be set free during the last 1/2..as it is written.

So..short is..Jesus came legally. There is SO MUCH to this.. so beautiful so awesome. Praise GOD.

So.. Angels did sin. No they do not any more. 1/3 of heaven when with Satan. So since we have NEVER been in Gods glory power and only born into sin. We had no choice in this. So the way out is free. So to speak. My view

 

[St_Worm2]

David,

Thank you for your response. I do wish that you had provided biblical evidence that predestination and foreordination do not refer to the same theological meaning.

Foreordination and predestination are terms that are sometimes used interchangeably. Foreordination denotes God’s sovereign plan whereby in eternity He has already decreed all that is to happen in the entire universe, which He created. Predestination is modern terminology depicting the functions of foreordination; it defines the specifics of God’s eternal plan, i.e., God’s foreknowledge in election, the manifestation of His call (summons) and justification in time and the glorification of His elect in eternity (Romans 8:30) [Grace Gospel Ministry, 'Foreordination (Predestination)'].
​

Oz

Hi Oz, actually, the evidence I'll need to find for you will have to come from the 17th Century understanding of those two words, IOW, the understanding that the authors of the WCC, the Westminster Divines, would have had. It will probably take some time, but if you're really interested I'll see what I can come up with.

Many of our words change meaning over time, to one degree or another (like the word "cute" meant "bowlegged" in the 17th Century, for instance). For that matter, we still see it happening right under our noses today with words like ethics and morality (whose meanings used to be distinct from one another but are now used interchangeably).

Anyway, let me know if you'd like me to pursue it. I'm pretty certain that 'their' understanding of Divine ordination/foreordination refers to anything that God puts his stamp of approval on and "allows" to happen (be it good or evil), where Divine predestination was not only something that God approved, but also "caused" to happen (if/when necessary).

So the terms are closely related, obviously, but they are not the same.

Yours and His,
David

Isaiah 46:9-10
"I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'".
.​

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz, actually, the evidence I'll need to find for you will have to come from the 17th Century understanding of those two words, IOW, the understanding that the authors of the WCC, the Westminster Divines, would have had. It will probably take some time, but if you're really interested I'll see what I can come up with.

Many of our words change meaning over time, to one degree or another (like the word "cute" meant "bowlegged" in the 17th Century, for instance). For that matter, we still see it happening right under our noses today with words like ethics and morality (whose meanings used to be distinct from one another but are now used interchangeably).

Anyway, let me know if you'd like me to pursue it. I'm pretty certain that 'their' understanding of Divine ordination/foreordination refers to anything that God puts his stamp of approval on and "allows" to happen (be it good or evil), where Divine predestination was not only something that God approved, but also "caused" to happen (if/when necessary).

So the terms are closely related, obviously, but they are not the same.

Yours and His,
David

Isaiah 46:9-10
"I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'".
.​

David,

Thanks for your kind offer. To save you all this trouble, there are reasonable explanations in:

Foreordain, Forordination (James Orr), and

Predestination (James Lindsay).

Both of these articles are from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia that is 100 years old.

This topic often degenerates into a slanging match between Arminians & Calvinists. I don't want to go there as I currently don't have the time to engage in discussion (moving house).

Oz

 

[he-man]

If Newton believed that, then he was in opposition to the bible. Jesus IS God

Huh?

 

[he-man]

What is written? Sin was FOUND...not know before..but found in Satan. Adam and Eve sin.. God has to ASK "where are you"? God has to ask "who told you". God has to ASK Cain wheres your brother. God has to come down to see if the cries He has heard are as bad. On and on. Some foundation.
Now my view is.. Angels that fell.. saying sorry what ever..so what? See they were created with NO SIN around them at all. They had ALL Gods glory power everything around them. They knew what they were giving up. What ELSE could God offer? So.. they get kicked out. When this fall happen.. we dont know. It had happen before Adam was created.
Now the reason Satan and his angels and demons can STILL do all this evil is WE gave them this world. Adam and Eve sinned. By that sin all God gave Adam and Eve.. this earth and the 1st heaven (sky) we handed over to him. Satan told Jesus as he show'd Him all nations and what not in a moments time. Said this was given, handed over to me and I can give it to who ever I want.
Jesus... the man that hand 1000 or so demons. Said what? Have you come to torment us before our TIME. Before out time? That means there is a time limit on this. They do not obey God in everthing.. or some would not be in chains. There are those that are so evil.. GOD can not control them. THOSE will be set free during the last 1/2..as it is written.
So..short is..Jesus came legally. There is SO MUCH to this.. so beautiful so awesome. Praise GOD.

So.. Angels did sin. No they do not any more. 1/3 of heaven when with Satan. So since we have NEVER been in Gods glory power and only born into sin. We had no choice in this. So the way out is free. So to speak. My view​

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 There is no satan, only false idols and there is only One God.​