Can a person actively reject something they don't understand?

[essentialsaltes]

posting blind.

Obviously, they can reject it, but their rejection is neither rational nor justified. Or I guess to turn it around, their rejection is irrational and unjustified.

 

[pitabread]

Obviously, they can reject it, but their rejection is neither rational nor justified. Or I guess to turn it around, their rejection is irrational and unjustified

To play devil's advocate here: is rejection of a strawman caricature of science irrational?

For example, if a creationist is taught a strawman version of evolution that includes things that are completely ridiculous and they reject it on that basis, would that in itself be irrational.

The irony is that non-creationists would reject the strawman version of evolution as well, for reasons that seem rational (insofar as strawman caricatures not representing reality in the slightest).

This is why I've started to view creationist rejecting of actual science (including evolution) to be more an instance of passive disinterest. Especially since creationists generally have little to no motivation to undertake any proper learning of the subjects in question.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Actually I am not interested in that epigenetics happens, I am interested in how a mouse that fears cherry blossoms and or electricity changes it's somatic cells. See the changes have been documented, but there is no explanation for how the changes are passed from the mind and or nervous system to alter the next generation without random mutation.

However you can grace us all with the answer?

The precise pathways are not clear, but when a severe stress response is associated with some environmental event, stress hormones (e.g. adrenaline, cortisol) are released and activate various physiological responses (e.g. fight or flight, freeze in place). These responses include sensitisation to the triggering stimulus - this occurs in the brain by reinforcing the connection between the sensory processing area related to that stimulus and the amygdala which mediates responses to survival threats.

It appears that either the sensory processing area or the amygdala also cause an epigenetic change (presumably hormonal) that affects regulation of development of the sensory receptors involved and the associated sensory processing areas in the brain, so that more receptors are produced and more brain resources are available to process their output.

By changing the regulation of the DNA responsible for development of that specific receptor pathway, an epigenetic change can have a broader scope than just reinforcing the fight/flight association, and may also be transferred to the next generation (although most epigenetic changes don't get passed down).

It's true that we don't understand the whole set of interactions involved, but then we've only just discovered that epigenetic effect itself. Research takes time, epigenetics is a field in its infancy.

The fact is that we do not understand how DNA works, so we could be years, millenniums or eons from this understanding

We understand the basic mechanisms, we don't yet understand all the ways they are used.

But the fact that we don't know or understand everything doesn't imply that there's anything supernatural about any of it - it just means there's still a lot to discover and understand.

 

[Speedwell]

I actually had catholic teachers as well. Does not make child abuse OK

It doesn't make their teaching on the metaphysics of causality wrong, either.

 

[essentialsaltes]

To play devil's advocate here: is rejection of a strawman caricature of science irrational?

For example, if a creationist is taught a strawman version of evolution that includes things that are completely ridiculous and they reject it on that basis, would that in itself be irrational.

Ha, I'll grant the point. Some of these people are victims of indoctrination.

Ordinarily, it would be irrational to pass judgment on something you were ignorant of. But some of these people don't realize they are ignorant, because they have been misinformed by people they trust.

 

[Speedwell]

You were correct in the first sentence and could have stopped there. The implication of epigenetics is that there is a mechanism that allows a parent to communicate the past thru a genetic pathway that tosses random mutation to the curb as the only way for change as this is clearly not random. When this is figured out we will see an entire new layer of info in the genetic code. Which may change many ideas

Good, this will allow people to catch up to the modern theory of evolution, which does not assert that random mutation is the only cause of change.

 

[Smokie]

To say Speedwell's teachers are pedophiles without the requisite knowledge to know that that is so, is to lie. Stop lying.

I never said that, though I can see that you are frustrated. Let me say this, I was in the hospital several years ago and every day a deacon came in offering me communion, I said no politely every time. After about a week he came in again and I ask him if he donates to his church, he said yes. I then ask if it bothers him that some of that money might go to paying off abuse victims claims. He was speechless and he left nearly in tears and never came back. The difference between us is that I can not close my eyes to something that horrible. It happened and is happening. Sorry but that is true

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

LOL, can you explain how you "learnt" about cellular evolution?

I got the basics during my Human Biology degree, and more detail while working as a biologist and then keeping up to date with developments in the field. I'm not a specialist, just reasonably well-informed.

 

[Speedwell]

It is not me that offends you, it is the truth. I apologize, however I can not ignore some things

You accused me, and by implication millions of other Christians of denying God. Do you call that "truth?"

 

[d taylor]

What a hypocrite a christian would be, to say i believe that God offers Eternal Life through faith in The Messiah as stated in the Bible (and other truths in The Bible).

Then turn around and say the same Bible does not accurately give an account, how God created His creation or accurately describes His creation throughout the Bible. Not because of any testimony given in The Bible but because of pagan science.

 

[Smokie]

I got the basics during my Human Biology degree, and more detail while working as a biologist and then keeping up to date with developments in the field. I'm not a specialist, just reasonably well-informed.

And your degree included information that you "learnt"

Interesting

 

[Tinker Grey]

Evidently my Roman Catholic science teachers, Brothers in Orders, were wrong, too. Who's next? The Holy Father?

I never said that, though I can see that you are frustrated. Let me say this, I was in the hospital several years ago and every day a deacon came in offering me communion, I said no politely every time. After about a week he came in again and I ask him if he donates to his church, he said yes. I then ask if it bothers him that some of that money might go to paying off abuse victims claims. He was speechless and he left nearly in tears and never came back. The difference between us is that I can not close my eyes to something that horrible. It happened and is happening. Sorry but that is true

Speedwell said that evidently you think his teachers were wrong. To which, you responded: Why are you quoting pedophiles?

You've implied without evidence that his teachers were pedophiles. Own it.

 

[pitabread]

Then turn around and say the same Bible does not accurately give an account, how God created His creation or accurately describes His creation throughout the Bible. Not because of any testimony given in The Bible but because of pagan science.

"Pagan science"?

 

[Speedwell]

What a hypocrite a christian would be, to say i believe that God offers Eternal Life through faith in The Messiah as stated in the Bible (and other truths in The Bible).

Then turn around and say the same Bible does not accurately give an account, how God created His creation or accurately describes His creation throughout the Bible. Not because of any testimony given in The Bible but because of pagan science.

Or maybe just because they regard a literal interpretation of Genesis as shallow and theologically inadequate, without bringing science into it at all. You don't own the Christian religion, Bozo, or the Bible either. You are in no position to dictate to other Christians what they must believe about it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

They would if you understood that universal gravitational motion is happening at a rate that determines that there is 85 percent too little mass and energy to allow for current expansion rates, and that as a result dark matter was invented to correct for the inconsistencies in the cosmological constant.

You're confusing and conflating dark matter and dark energy and getting them both wrong.

It is not my fault if you can not comprehend the theories and or equations implications.

Oh, the irony...

In fact some physicist are now claiming that because the mathematics does not add up that the universe is a computer simulation and not real at all, and this includes you and I as well

Not really no. The simulation hypothesis is a metaphysical proposition, not a claim about the maths 'not adding up'.

 

[Smokie]

You accused me, and by implication millions of other Christians of denying God. Do you call that "truth?"

Actually there are about 2.2 billion Christians of which I am one. However I am not one that ignores abuse as some seem to be able to do.

That aside do you believe that the USA should abandon capitalism as the Pope said that Capitalism has failed the World? Because the only other choices are socialism or communism?

Pope: Market capitalism has failed in pandemic, needs reform (apnews.com)

 

[Smokie]

You're confusing and conflating dark matter and dark energy and getting them both wrong.

Oh, the irony...

Not really no. The simulation hypothesis is a metaphysical proposition, not a claim about the maths 'not adding up'.

LOL it is actually impossible to confuse imaginary things. You only think that I am confused because you believe that you know and you do not, no one does

 

[pitabread]

That aside do you believe that the USA should abandon capitalism as the Pope said that Capitalism has failed the World? Because the only other choices are socialism or communism?

The politics forum is down the hall --------> American Politics

If you want to engage in a political discussion, please take it there. I'd rather not have this thread locked because it's been dragged completely off subject.

 

[Ophiolite]

It is not me that offends you, it is the truth. I apologize, however I can not ignore some things

I'm not offended by you or your views, since I place little value on the latter. I do recommend that you stop ignoring facts. That might allow coherence to enter your posts.

 

[d taylor]

"Pagan science"?

I do believe the first scientist came out places like Egypt, Greece, etc.. all pagan peoples