Calvinist Robots

[&Abel]

All men are born guilty before God because all men are born from sinners. Not a one here on earth has been born of a perfect sinless man. Why because sin dwells with in every person from the time of conception because when conceived they are concieved of sinner parents.

Deuteronomy 24

16"(O)Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekial 18

1Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2"(A)What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
'(B)The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4"Behold, (C)all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who (D)sins will die.
5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not (E)eat at the mountain shrines or (F)lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or (G)defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but (H)restores to the debtor his pledge, (I)does not commit robbery, but (J)gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on (K)interest or take (L)increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and (M)executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in (N)My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--(O)he is righteous and will surely (P)live," declares the Lord GOD.
10"Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11(though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and (Q)defiles his neighbor's wife,
12oppresses the (R)poor and needy, (S)commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and (T)commits abomination,
13he (U)lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his (V)blood will be on his own head.
14"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and (W)observing does not do likewise.
15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he (X)gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; (Y)he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, '(Z)Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced (AA)justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who (AB)sins will die The (AC)son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the (AD)righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21"But if the (AE)wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22"(AF)All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his (AG)righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23"(AH)Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should (AI)turn from his ways and live?

 

[&Abel]

Do you not understand that Jesus is the Spotless lamb? Why would Jesus have to battle other than when led of the Spirit out in the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil? Jesus was the King from the day He was conceived in the womb of Mary. He was Gods ONLY begotten Son. He was before He was born. When Christ died on the cross He cried out it is Finished. God had sent His Son to die so that men could life. A sacrafice that only God could give for Only God is Holy. This is why it is nothing we can to to earn righteousness. This is why Jesus righteousness is imputed to us for we are sinful men and He is Holy.

34And He said to them, "(AD)My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch."
35And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, (AE)the hour might pass Him by.
36And He was saying, "(AF)Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; (AG)yet not what I will, but what You will."
37And He came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?
38"(AH)Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
39Again He went away and prayed, saying the same words.
40And again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy; and they did not know what to answer Him.
41And He came the third time, and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough; (AI)the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
42"Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"


do you know why he said "your will and not mine" cause his will was influenced by temptation in that moment


he was afraid of death and his body was telling him to get the heck outta that situation


and yet he resisted it

 

[MamaZ]

Deuteronomy 24

16"(O)Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekial 18

1Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2"(A)What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
'(B)The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4"Behold, (C)all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who (D)sins will die.
5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not (E)eat at the mountain shrines or (F)lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or (G)defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but (H)restores to the debtor his pledge, (I)does not commit robbery, but (J)gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on (K)interest or take (L)increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and (M)executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in (N)My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--(O)he is righteous and will surely (P)live," declares the Lord GOD.
10"Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11(though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and (Q)defiles his neighbor's wife,
12oppresses the (R)poor and needy, (S)commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and (T)commits abomination,
13he (U)lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his (V)blood will be on his own head.
14"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and (W)observing does not do likewise.
15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he (X)gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; (Y)he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, '(Z)Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced (AA)justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who (AB)sins will die The (AC)son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the (AD)righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21"But if the (AE)wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22"(AF)All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his (AG)righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23"(AH)Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should (AI)turn from his ways and live?

I understand why this would be thought but if you look at deeply you will see that this scripture is telling us that if my father kills a person I am not guilty for his sin of murder. But yet I am guilty of my own sins. People sin because they are sinners and the sin that entices men to sin dwells in them. Men do not become sinners because they sin. If this were the case then every person would have to be tempted of the devil from the outside and not from the sin that dwells in them. Just as Jesus was. We know for a fact though that sin does dwell in men. Men are born selfish. Always looking out for number one.

 

[&Abel]

39(AO)And He came out and proceeded (AP)as was His custom to (AQ)the Mount of Olives; and the disciples also followed Him. 40(AR)When He arrived at the place, He said to them, "(AS)Pray that you may not enter into temptation."
41And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He (AT)knelt down and began to pray,
42saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this (AU)cup from Me; (AV)yet not My will, but Yours be done."
43Now an (AW)angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.
44And (AX)being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
45When He rose from prayer, He came to the disciples and found them sleeping from sorrow,
46and said to them, "Why are you sleeping? Get up and (AY)pray that you may not enter into temptation."

 

[&Abel]

I understand why this would be thought but if you look at deeply you will see that this scripture is telling us that if my father kills a person I am not guilty for his sin of murder. But yet I am guilty of my own sins. People sin because they are sinners and the sin that entices men to sin dwells in them. Men do not become sinners because they sin. If this were the case then every person would have to be tempted of the devil from the outside and not from the sin that dwells in them. Just as Jesus was. We know for a fact though that sin does dwell in men. Men are born selfish. Always looking out for number one.

no this verse says nothing of specific sins

stop trying to teach and learn something

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

no this verse says nothing of specific sins

stop trying to teach and learn something

Luke 21:7 They yet inquire of Him saying "Teacher!/didaskale <1320>, when? then these shall be and what? the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming"

 

[squint]

I'm not seeing why you call it an ironic point. I have never claimed to know the certainty of my position,

Well, just yesterday you said your determinations of Gods Determinations were true and that if I had a problem with that I'd have to take it up with God.

and I sure don't know the certainty of anyone else's position, BUT I do know that God called me into a relationship with Him at a time in my life when I was far away and not even looking for God.

That's what you may think but it's still possible that you are NOT one of the ELECT no matter what you think or do. Salvation via predestination is not based on your thoughts or works or even actions.

(So much for free choice. (And I am ever so grateful that He stepped in and made me His!)) And He has held tightly to me despite the times I have felt like wandering.

The observation was that in Calvinism they do not purport to KNOW the identity of ANY of the elect, and will also admit that preachers of Calvinism could not be elect even while preaching the message. In short, they just don't know nor can they, nor can you using their doctrinal stick.

 

[MamaZ]

34And He said to them, "(AD)My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch."
35And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, (AE)the hour might pass Him by.
36And He was saying, "(AF)Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; (AG)yet not what I will, but what You will."
37And He came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?
38"(AH)Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
39Again He went away and prayed, saying the same words.
40And again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy; and they did not know what to answer Him.
41And He came the third time, and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough; (AI)the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
42"Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"


do you know why he said "your will and not mine" cause his will was influenced by temptation in that moment


he was afraid of death and his body was telling him to get the heck outta that situation


and yet he resisted it

What was His temptation? Did you not know that for the very first time since forever the Father would not be able to look upon Jesus? Why? Because God cannot look upon Sin for He is Holy. Jesus became sin. You look at the scriptures from a human reasoning sometimes and have to remember that the scriptures about Jesus are not for a human purpose but a Spiritual purpose.

 

[Tzaousios]

Well, that depends if one wants to translate word-for-word or not according to the greek.
Here is what I come up with

Romans 5:12 Thru/because-of this even as thru one man the sin into the world entered and thru the sin the death, and thus into all men the death came-thru on which all sinned

Textus Rec.) Romans 5:12 dia touto wsper di enoV anqrwpou h amartia eiV ton kosmon eishlqen kai dia thV amartiaV o qanatoV kai outwV eiV pantaV anqrwpouV o qanatoV dihlqen ef w panteV hmarton

Yes, I agree, and the key part of the translation is how eph w is rendered. Hopefully some Reformed respondants will explain.

 

[DD2008]

According to Reformed theologians, what is the proper way to translate Romans 5:12 from the Greek? What implications does their translation have for their understanding of imputed guilt?

Romans 5:12
[12] Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --

I use the best English translations I can find and trust in the word of the scholars who claim that's the best renderingthey can make. I like the ESV and RSV. I also check them against the NASB.

I don't see a reason to learn greek myself since there are so many reputable scholars who have translated the scriptures for us.

Also, no one has the authority to render an infallible interpretation of scripture.

Here is my attempt at a paraphrase or commentary of Romans 5:12.

I believe Rom 5:12 is pretty clear. Sin came into the world through Adam. Death is a consequence of sin. Death is a symptom of the disease of sin spread by Adam and contracted by all men born of him, and this is evident in the fact that all men sin.

 

[MamaZ]

no this verse says nothing of specific sins

stop trying to teach and learn something

I cannot learn what is not truth Abel. I have been through this also. I too was a baby Christian and learning to grow. It does not have to say specific sins. That was an example that I gave you. You are not guilty for anyones sins but your own. This does not mean that sin does not dwell within you.

 

[&Abel]

What was His temptation? Did you not know that for the very first time since forever the Father would not be able to look upon Jesus? Why? Because God cannot look upon Sin for He is Holy. Jesus became sin. You look at the scriptures from a human reasoning sometimes and have to remember that the scriptures about Jesus are not for a human purpose but a Spiritual purpose.

consequence of sin is not sin itself

we are born with consequence(which includes temptation)

Jesus was without sin because he died without committing it not because he was born pure physically

 

[student ad x]

Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?

We could use a flamethrower smiley just to get rid of all the straw.

There is no way to follow the discussion as it stands.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, I agree, and the key part of the translation is how eph w is rendered. Hopefully some Reformed respondants will explain.

I would use a good greek/english interlinear to help with that. It appears to be used as "on" whereas "epi" is used as "upon" I think.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

#1909 used 896 times.


ef <1909> Used 83 times in NT

 

[&Abel]

I cannot learn what is not truth Abel. I have been through this also. I too was a baby Christian and learning to grow. It does not have to say specific sins. That was an example that I gave you. You are not guilty for anyones sins but your own. This does not mean that sin does not dwell within you.

your misunderstanding what it means to have sin within our flesh

its the implied results of sin

14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,
23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?
25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.

 

[DD2008]

yes he died voluntarily after resisting temptation from his flesh which is more of a feat then dying without it

Actually his temptations came directly from the devil torturing him with repeated temptations using everything he could think of to twart the plan of God. Christ did not have a fallen nature because God was his father so he didn't have a natural desire to sin. He was like Adam in that regard. But where Adam failed he suceeded and is now the federal head of Righteousness because of it.

So his feat is the greatest.

 

[&Abel]

sin spreads because consequence of sin leads to more sin

its a domino effect

 

[Thekla]

Here is a link on Original sin.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...at_is_the_biblical_evidence_for_original_sin/

To begin with, the claim that we "inherit sin" through Adam as a physical inheritance seems to teach that matter is evil. Yet Satan fell without such a body as ours, and nowhere is it taught that matter is inherently evil.

I did not find the matter of the image and the likeness addressed here, nor the claim supported that Adam's sin is imputed to us.

In Psalm 14:2, 3 we read: "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: "they have all turned aside...there is no one who does good."

If not the result of a rhetorical device, then this statement contradicts the witness of (for ex.) the Gospel of Luke that states that Zachariah, Elizabeth, Symeon, etc were righteous. Which do you choose ?

 

[&Abel]

Actually his temptations came directly from the devil torturing him with repeated temptations using everything he could think of to twart the plan of God. Christ did not have a fallen nature because God was his father so he didn't have a natural desire to sin. He was like Adam in that regard. But where Adam failed he suceeded and is now the federal head of Righteousness because of it.

So his feat is the greatest.

without a fallen nature dying without sin is not defeating that fallen nature

I already provided evidence of Jesus enduring excruciating temptation before his death

 

[DD2008]

your misunderstanding what it means to have sin within our flesh.

You misunderstand the truth that if Christ had any trace of sin in him we could not be saved.

He was perfectly sinless, a spotless sacrifice.

That's why the hosts of heaven praise Him by saying "Worthy is the Lamb."