Calvinist Robots

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules; The concept is quite easy to understand.

Apparently not. You make it look quite erasy to MISunderstand.

However, it is not biblical or logical, so I reject it.

You reject it because it puts God more in control of your life than you want Him to be.

In addition, I think it damages the ability of Christians to evangelize.

That's because you don't think in depth & haven't a clue re: the historical information that proves you slanderously wrong.

It turns God into an unmerciful, unloving ego-maniac.

Egomaniac? This from a guy who thinks his own will is what makes his salvation effective? LOL
Besides, God can't be an egomaniac with three of them to juggle.

 

[&Abel]

That wasn't the end.

what do you mean? he wrote the word of god at a point in his life

he was the son of David, raised by David

chosen Vessel of the Lord, pleased the Lord on many different occasions

do you think god willed for Solomon to fall away at the end so he could damn him?

 

[Rick Otto]

predestination IS Biblical

but predestination is based on foreknowledge not on forced will

The foreknowlege is of what He predestined Himself.

 

[&Abel]

and Solomon did not repent

 

[&Abel]

The foreknowlege is of what He predestined Himself.

huh?

no his foreknowledge is based on the result of his creation of freewill beings

our place is prepared because he already knows who is truly his and finishes the race and who doesn't

you think he predestined to damn David's son, after doing much good work for him in his lifetime?

 

[Rick Otto]

I thought he was talkin' 'bout David.
I gotta run for now, but I'll be back.

 

[hogndog]

So then you have no intelligent refutation.
That's Ok. I didn't expect any.



I'll tell you exactly what it has to do with them.

We tend to fear the unknown.
You cannot know what you cannot understand.
You fear predestination because you don't understand it. You think it defines men into robots.
We also tend to project our fears & insecurities onto people that arouse them.
That is what you've done to me.
Don't worry about it, tho. I get over that easily enough.

Fear of the unknown can just as easily been said fear of the known.

Hogndog

 

[chestertonrules]

Fear of the unknown can just as easily been said fear of the known.

Hogndog

Like knowing that you are responsible for you own actions?

 

[&Abel]

That wasn't the end.

32((AE)but he will have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, (AF)the city which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel),
33because they have forsaken Me, and (AG)have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, (AH)Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the sons of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and observing My statutes and My ordinances, as his father David did.
34'Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of My servant David whom I chose, who observed My commandments and My statutes;
35but (AI)I will take the kingdom from his son's hand and give it to you, even ten tribes.
36'But (AJ)to his son I will give one tribe, (AK)that My servant David may have a lamp always before Me in Jerusalem, (AL)the city where I have chosen for Myself to put My name.
37'I will take you, and you shall reign over whatever you desire, and you shall be king over Israel.
38'Then it will be, that if you listen to all that I command you and walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight by observing My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then (AM)I will be with you and (AN)build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.
39'Thus I will afflict the descendants of David for this, but not always.'"
40Solomon sought therefore to put Jeroboam to death; but Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt to (AO)Shishak king of Egypt, and he was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

The Death of Solomon

41(AP)Now the rest of the acts of Solomon and whatever he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42Thus (AQ)the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years.
43And Solomon (AR)slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son (AS)Rehoboam reigned in his place.

 

[&Abel]

6Then (H)he called for his son Solomon, and charged him to build a house for the LORD God of Israel. 7David said to Solomon, "(I)My son, I had intended to build a house to the name of the LORD my God.
8"But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, '(J)You have shed much blood and have waged great wars; you shall not build a house to My name, because you have shed so much blood on the earth before Me.
9'Behold, a son will be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and (K)I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side; for (L)his name shall be [a]Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days.
10'(M)He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
11"Now, my son, (N)the LORD be with you that you may be successful, and build the house of the LORD your God just as He has spoken concerning you.
12"(O)Only the LORD give you discretion and understanding, and give you charge over Israel, so that you may (P)keep the law of the LORD your God.
13"(Q)Then you will prosper, if you are careful to observe the statutes and the ordinances which the LORD commanded Moses concerning Israel (R)Be strong and courageous, do not fear nor be dismayed.



and God was a father to him and yet Solomon turned from Him


God calls him His son and yet he turns away in the end!

 

[DD2008]

why ?
and why do you say Adam's sin is "imputed to us" when we inherit his mortality, not his sin ?

and if she does not have "imputed sin", then how does Christ restore us - save us from imputed sin ?

I never said she didn't have imputed sin. That's what the Roman Catholic believe. I don't hold to that doctrine at all.

I believe that sin is imputed to us through the male side. So Mary would have been imputed the sin of Adam through Joachim, her father.

The Roman Catholics made up an elaborate false doctrine that they all are required to believe called the immaculate conception. This doctrine is not referring to the virgin birth as many non-catholics think off hand but really means that Mary was immaculately concieved without sin by having the future righteousness of Christ imputed to her before hand at conception.

So they teach that Mary was sinless as well. It's just another one of the many unbiblical doctrines that they have made up.

Federal headship is scriptural and true. You probably didn't read the link so I'll provide it again.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/federal-headship

Basically, Adams sin is imputed to people by their fathers. Christ's Father is God so he did not have the sin of Adam imputed to Him. Adam is the federal head of sin. Christ is the federal head of righteousness. Adam's sin is imputed to all of His children. Christ's righteousness is imputed to all of God's adopted Elect.

 

[&Abel]

fully god in spirit, fully man in flesh

Jesus had the stains of sin within his Genes

 

[DD2008]

how are we totally depraved ????
if we have no image, we have no will and are just animals
are animals totally depraved ?

anyway, there is no "original sin" in the EO (or the first few centuries) so I'm thinking thats why this discussion is so confusing to me ...

Understood. If you don't believe in original sin this whole side of theology is closed to you.

 

[DD2008]

fully god in spirit, fully man in flesh

Jesus had the stains of sin within his Genes

No he didn't. Sin was not imputed to Him because his father was God. That's the whole point. He must be sinless to be the necessary sinless sacrifice to atone for sins.

 

[&Abel]

Understood. If you don't believe in original sin this whole side of theology is closed to you.

I believe in original sin

sin is passed on in our genes and through consequence and yet every man has the ability to rise above that sinful nature and correct themselves by allowing god to work within their lives(basically turning over control to him)

Sin is passed on through both men and women

 

[&Abel]

No he didn't. Sin was not imputed to Him because his father was God. That's the whole point. He must be sinless to be the necessary sinless sacrifice to atone for sins.

christ was sinless because he obeyed his father, he had to have sin in his blood for it to truly be a conquering of that sin, temptation and death

 

[&Abel]

Hebrews 2

9But we do see Him who was (T)made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, (U)because of the suffering of death (V)crowned with glory and honor, so that (W)by the grace of God He might (X)taste death (Y)for everyone. 10For (Z)it was fitting for Him, (AA)for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to (AB)perfect the (AC)author of their salvation through sufferings.
11For both He who (AD)sanctifies and those who (AE)are sanctified are all (AF)from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them (AG)brethren,
12saying,
"(AH)I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"(AI)I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"(AJ)BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14Therefore, since the children share in (AK)flesh and blood, (AL)He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that (AM)through death He might render powerless (AN)him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through (AO)fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had (AP)to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might (AQ)become a merciful and faithful (AR)high priest in (AS)things pertaining to God, to (AT)make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was (AU)tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.



if jesus was free of the stains of sin he would not be suffering at the same level we were...resisting temptation would have been easier

 

[DD2008]

christ was sinless because he obeyed his father, he had to have sin in his blood for it to truly be a conquering of that sin, temptation and death

He was sinless because he obeyed his father, yes. But, he was also sinless because he did not inherit sin from Adam.

The only way that Christ could die in any way would be to either sin, or to take on guilt voluntarily so that he could die.

I believe he voluntarily took on sins and suffered the penalty for sinners. That is why sinners can have the righteousnes of Christ imputed to them by Election, because Christ has paid the price for their sins, has been resurrected from the dead and now sinners can saved.

 

[&Abel]

from the first Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians:

For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt themselves over His flock. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Sceptre of the majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had declared regarding Him. For He says, "Lord, who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed ? We have declared [our message] in His presence: He is, as it were, a child, and like a root in thirsty ground; He has no form nor glory, yea, we saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness; but His form was without eminence, yea, deficient in comparison with the [ordinary] form of men. He is a man exposed to stripes and suffering, anti acquainted with the endurance of grief: for His countenance was turned away; He was despised, and not esteemed.

 

[&Abel]

He was sinless because he obeyed his father, yes. But, he was also sinless because he did not inherit sin from Adam.

The only way that Christ could die in any way would be to either sin, or to take on guilt voluntarily so that he could die.

I believe he voluntarily took on sins and suffered the penalty for sinners. That is why sinners can have the righteousnes of Christ imputed to them by Election, because Christ has paid the price for their sins, has been resurrected from the dead and now sinners can saved.

without the stains of sin he would not be truly facing death...he had to have a body that craved the things of death

had he been without sin in his body he would have been as pure as Adam and yet as strong as god...in this state he would not have been tempted