Calvinist Baptist Talk

[@@Paul@@]

So your quite happy and thankful that God Chose YOU!

Not as happy as He is that I choose Him.


I think this fits here too, given the line of questioning being used:

A guy left home running:.................. he ran for a while and took a left..............after a while, he look another left.............then he look a left and headed back home only to find some men in masks waiting for him....


Why did he leave home? ​

 

[JM]

Not as happy as He is that I choose Him.

That's the ticket.

 

[cygnusx1]

Not as happy as He is that I choose Him.

Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.

I think this fits here too, given the line of questioning being used:

A guy left home running:.................. he ran for a while and took a left..............after a while, he look another left.............then he look a left and headed back home only to find some men in masks waiting for him....

Why did he leave home?
​

To buy a mask.It was Halloween

 

[bleechers]

When one hits a baseball, one darts to first base, then on to second and so on... until one starts back towards home where the catcher and umpire both sport masks...

There is only one problem. Having played baseball most of my life, I can assure you by the time the runner gets around third, the catcher and the ump will have removed their masks.

Question: did he choose to go back or did he go back because of his nature?*

*that's a joke.

8)

 

[BT]

Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.

Really? It reminds me of Luke 15:7

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.



Listen guys, I'm not just up on the high-horse here. If this concept of regeneration prior to and necessary for salvation, to the elect only is such an obvious concept, then answer my question. I mean we are Baptists, the Bible is our sole authority (it is the First Baptist distinctive). If this whole thing is so obvious and clear in Scripture (as I have repeatedly heard) then show me from Scripture. That's all I'm asking for.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hello Bill, welcome to the in-house Baptist discussion on Calvinism

Now over the course of the past few months, whenever we have bumped into each other (usually on this topic for some strange reason, eh?) I have learned to respect your method of explanation. It is always done in a careful manner with ( I believe) the best intentions at heart.

Good Day, BT

Thank you for your kind words, comming from a Brother who has your insight it is quite humbling. Kind of funny how things work out that way.

So be not offended when I tell you that your understanding of this chapter is wrong. You can not understand John 8 by beginning at the 34th verse. You must start at the beginning where the self-righteous were attempting to get Jesus' blessing in stoning a woman. Which (we know the story) they did not get. Some of the important verses that you've missed (and those who use this passage in general) are such as

I am not at all offended, for I do not think that discussions around Scripture to be offensivie. I think that disscussion such as these are most profitable to the Body of believers. I gave a exergetical understanding of part of this chapter, which by no means neglects the othere verses of this chapter IMO.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

So are the dead following him or have they been regenerated, and where is this evidence of regeneration?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Now this is of course something he is saying to the Pharisees. And with our understanding of who he was it is a startling revelation, that the religious leaders of Judaism don't know the father... however I digress.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Who cannot come? Me and You? No, the Pharisees. This isn't about us.. let me skip ahead

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Ok, who said? Jesus said. Said what? If you believe not. Then what? ye shall die.

So what is that which will cause you to die in sins? If you believe not. Now if you will attempt to tell me that Jesus did not know what He was talking about (which I don't for one second think you would) we have bigger things to discuss. Let us continue...

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Ok as who spoke? As Jesus spoke. What happened? Many believed.
So what causes belief? The WORD causes belief. Do you see anything about regeneration or total inability to believe or anything like that here? No.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Who spoke? Jesus. To whom? The Jews which believed. By what did they believe, was it regeneration or election? No it was by His WORD... not words do you notice.... again where is the inability, where is the regeneration? It simply isn't there.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Now this is important ok? You see the problem was that they thought they were righteous because they were the seed of Abraham. They did not see that they were in fact sinners (this is a common problem that we have in the world today... nobody thinks they are sinners). They didn't understand the scriptures. So now Jesus proceeds to teach them that they are in bondage to sin and don't have a free ride simply because they are the sons of Abraham.


My friend. Your understand is wrong. I'm sorry but I hope that you can be teachable enough to understand that this does not mean what you and SP thought it did.

So I ask again. Will someone show me in the Scriptures:


and

[/i]

BT, there is much here that needs to be disscused at to the understanding of the verses you pull from this chapter. If you find it to be help full I will exergete this whole chapter if you like provided you do the same, there are questions raised by the verses you have quoted, I summit to you that those questions are answered with in the chapter in some of the verses I refered to and extending to the end of the chapter.

I will say that there may be a possibilty I am incorrect as to the nauture of my exergesis of the passage in question based on the vereses that proceed that passage, But I dout it for the lanuage used by Jesus is clear and is the summation of the questions that the earier verses raise. You have not shown in any manner that my exeregsis is marred, nor shown any relationship between the verses you quote and the verses I posted. I am not saying there is not one one that you have not provided any.

Seeing that you have offered no explaination of the passage I posted I will have to assume that you agree with the nature of the lanuage used here, if that is not correct please post your understanding of that passage.

Would like to Address some of what you posted from that chapter:


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

BT, You seem to assert that the "Jews which believed" were some how True belivers, tell me how? In a matter of 6 vereses they go from belivers to killers "why"? It is allways strange to me when any one questions the freedom of man and the lack there of people get very angry.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

OK, now that we know you're a Baptist.... For the above to be true God must then ELECT people for the opposite??

Do you think it's "possible" that God could "elect" someone knowing that they will "choose" Him at some point in their life - based on creation being a witness to the fact that there is a God?

.......plus the fact that your totally taking Romans 9 out of context. Romans 9 is about Israel's PAST and WHY God choose them and HOW he built their nation... Leaving Romans 9 in context, "Sovereign grace" would be how He called the Apostle Paul AND "hardening" would then be what happened to the nation (because He FOREKNEW they would reject Him anyway) - It's all part of the plan; "All Israel will be saved".





God choose to build a nation by calling out one man to "bless the entire world". However, God could have called out every single person on the planet and said "leave your land", but He didn't... I suppose He choose to call out one man so that He can harden the others?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.


​

...........God wishes everyone to come to repentance, which is why He is so patient.



The only proof of any "elect" i can see are those who God foreknew would actually repent....

Good day, Paul

It seems that your use of 2 Peter neglects the nature of passage as a whole:


1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Belivers**

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers - Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[JM]

Really? It reminds me of Luke 15:7

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.



Listen guys, I'm not just up on the high-horse here. If this concept of regeneration prior to and necessary for salvation, to the elect only is such an obvious concept, then answer my question. I mean we are Baptists, the Bible is our sole authority (it is the First Baptist distinctive). If this whole thing is so obvious and clear in Scripture (as I have repeatedly heard) then show me from Scripture. That's all I'm asking for.

Reminds me of:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Here's a couple to think about:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Faith is pleasing to God:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If the Gospel is not preached from this point of view, it becomes a bandaid Gospel, only there to make someone feel better. If we see God as the source of everything (including our faith) we come to Him in worship, giving glory. Why pray for someone to accept Christ if it's up to them?

SP

 

[@@Paul@@]

When one hits a baseball, one darts to first base, then on to second and so on... until one starts back towards home where the catcher and umpire both sport masks...

There is only one problem. Having played baseball most of my life, I can assure you by the time the runner gets around third, the catcher and the ump will have removed their masks.

Question: did he choose to go back or did he go back because of his nature?*

*that's a joke.

8)

oh i'll leave that alone.

 

[bleechers]

Has anyone explained Proverbs 1 yet? Just curious, I've referenced it twice.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

As noted in the Romans 5 passage (page back, I don't want to repeat myself ) Paul has been making the case against the Law which will culminate in Romans 10-11.

Look at how chapter 9 ends:

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul continues the case against the law (and those who are under it thinking that they are superior to those not under the law). God decided to deliver his Redeemer and deliver his law through Isaac, and just as He chose Isaac over Ismael for that, so He chose Jacob over Esau. That is God's will, it was not because Israel (Issac or Jacob) earned anything. In the same manner, just being an Israelite and being under the law means nothing to God in terms of justification.

God wasn't teaching that anyone is saved in the womb. If that were the case, when was Jacob pre-regenertated before he was saved? No, the choosing of Jacob did not exclude Esau from salvation, it merely pointed to God's right to choose through whom He would enact His will (His will being to justify people by faith).

Just an example:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ishmael was a "child of Abraham" but that is not what leads to justification. Just being a child of Abraham is not sufficient. God has chosen His way of salvation, by faith. Just as he chose the "child of Abraham" and the "child of Isaac" by which He would bring the promised Messiah, so He has chosen the way of blessing (the way of faith).

Faith is pleasing to God:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Again, this is dealing with the Law. Those under the law are trying to please God in the flesh.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This chapter is often used to put Christians in bondage because of the distinction between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh. It is used to teach that we must, on our own, "walk in the Spirit" as a condition of "maintaining" our salvation. That is the natural explanation if you don't realize that "the flesh" here is the flesh that is seeking to be justified by the Law. So, actually, the people who believe that they will be saved because they are "walking in the Spirit" by "adhering to the Law" are, in fact, deceiving themselves! By boasting of being "law-keepers" and attacking "antinomians" they are condemning themselves. They "walk in the flesh" under law instead of "in the Spirit" in Christ.

Also, we not "dead" before we believe. No. Rather we are "dead" after we believe!

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The flesh is subject to the Law. In Christ the body is dead and then not subject to the Law! Praise God!

Galatians 2
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Good day, Paul

It seems that your use of 2 Peter neglects the nature of passage as a whole:


1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Belivers**

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers - Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


For His Glory Alone!

Bill

You totally lost me!! I have no idea of how that ties into electing people to fail.

Rom 2:28-29 KJV
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​

.........Being a literal jew is not enough,,, A jew must come to repentance to be counted for the promise.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.

To buy a mask.It was Halloween

Do you think your father would get more joy through having to ask you to say "I Love you dad" OR would he rather you just say it on your own?

.............The first step to salvation:

Act 10:1-6 KJV
(1) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
(2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
(3) He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
(4) And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
(5) And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
(6) He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.​

...Fear God

I'll ask one more time, with a little re-wording:

Do you think it's "possible" that God "CHOSE" someone knowing that they will "choose" Him at some point in their life - based on creation being a witness to the fact that there is a God?​

 

[BBAS 64]

You totally lost me!! I have no idea of how that ties into electing people to fail.

Rom 2:28-29 KJV

(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
​

.........Being a literal jew is not enough,,, A jew must come to repentance to be counted for the promise.

Good Day, Paul

You Posted this:

"

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.


​

...........God wishes everyone to come to repentance, which is why He is so patient."


You used verse 9 to say that God wishes every one .... as to why he is so patient. Which is not what that passage says, it is to us-ward.


2Pe 3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[@@Paul@@]

Good Day, Paul

You Posted this:

"

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.


​

...........God wishes everyone to come to repentance, which is why He is so patient."


You used verse 9 to say that God wishes every one .... as to why he is so patient. Which is not what that passage says, it is to us-ward.


2Pe 3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,


Peace to u,

Bill

oh i see, so you think "us-ward" is a reference to believers? i.e. God has extended His longsuffering only to "believers"....

Oddly, I disagree.

US-Ward is a reference to the Jew.

Rom 2:28-29 KJV
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​

.............As Peter wrote TO the Jews and only BELIEVING Jews (those circumcised in the heart) are counted for the promise.

1Pe 1:1-2 KJV
(1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

.............We seem to always miss "according to".

So what "promise" was Peter talking about (which Jews would need to believe to be counted for)?

Heb 3:18-19 KJV
(18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
(19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.​

............Peter is then reminding the Jews (just as Paul was in Hebrews AND Romans) that God in His longsuffering wishes ALL JEWS to come to repentance, so that they may be counted for the promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.​

............The promise being "entering into his rest" which (for the Jew) is located here:

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:​

 

[BT]

BT, You seem to assert that the "Jews which believed" were some how True belivers, tell me how? In a matter of 6 vereses they go from belivers to killers "why"? It is allways strange to me when any one questions the freedom of man and the lack there of people get very angry.

Peace to u,

Bill

Hello again Bill!

Yes I understand the confusion. No the Jews who believed on him in these verses were not "believers" as are you and I. There were those of the Jews in his contemporary company who believed that he was true, or truthful and followed to become his disciples (students). My contention is not that they were saved...(because they weren't..how could they be without the death of Christ at this point..). And yes I did not do a full exegesis on the chapter because this chapter has really nothing to do with what we were discussing, which (although missed) was my point. The contention was around the misuse of this chapter to show that "men are dead in sin and God must regenerate them before they can believe", which is not in this chapter. That was the basis of my argument, I didn't intend to use it to "prove" my point persay. We can always go back and exegete the chapter later if you like. I agree it would be a fun exercise and you and I and everyone else could probably learn some really good things from the experience. Perhaps we should start an exegesis thread in here somewhere. That might be a really good way to provide edification for the Baptists on this forum... something to think about.

In the meantime I'm waiting for the answers to my questions.... Thank you for your reply.

 

[BT]

OK finally now we are getting somewhere. This is as good a place to start as any. And I'll ask all posters in this thread to remain out of this section of the conversation between SP and I (at least for now) so that we can stay on track and not end up having to answer all kinds of other posts on the subject. Please and thanks, and again just for now.

Reminds me of:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

This I'll leave alone for right now but we'll come back to it..

Here's a couple to think about:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now, finally we're coming to the meat and potatoes! Finally! Finally! Finally!

Let's talk about Eph 2:8. It is one of THE most misused verses in the Bible (in my limited experience).

So ok here we go. My friend I think I understand what you are saying here, or how you're reading it. Let us go all the way back to elementary school english class and examine the verse k.

Now I'll post some questions and you give the answers, hopefully we can get this straightened out k.

First, the verse...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now what is the subject of the statement? What are we talking about? Because we're hinged here on the part of the statement that says "it is the gift of God." Right? So now answer the question and we'll determine what "the gift of God is".

You have three options...
A) Grace
B) saved
C) Faith

So what is the subject? Answer that and we'll move on.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Faith is pleasing to God:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If the Gospel is not preached from this point of view, it becomes a bandaid Gospel, only there to make someone feel better. If we see God as the source of everything (including our faith) we come to Him in worship, giving glory. Why pray for someone to accept Christ if it's up to them?

SP

We'll get to these next! I'm excited now!

 

[JM]

Now, finally we're coming to the meat and potatoes! Finally! Finally! Finally!

Let's talk about Eph 2:8. It is one of THE most misused verses in the Bible (in my limited experience).

So ok here we go. My friend I think I understand what you are saying here, or how you're reading it. Let us go all the way back to elementary school english class and examine the verse k.

Now I'll post some questions and you give the answers, hopefully we can get this straightened out k.

First, the verse...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now what is the subject of the statement? What are we talking about? Because we're hinged here on the part of the statement that says "it is the gift of God." Right? So now answer the question and we'll determine what "the gift of God is".

You have three options...
A) Grace
B) saved
C) Faith

So what is the subject? Answer that and we'll move on.

Nice BT,

I've seen it before. We have to ask what is the context in which Paul is writting, salvation as a competed task. (ex. For by grace are ye saved...or For by grace you have been saved...) Grace through faith as a gift of God brother, it's the only way. You would say faith, am I right? But isn't faith pleasing to God? How can one please God while in the flesh without Christ? They can't.

What is the source of salvation?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[BT]

Nice BT,

I've seen it before. We have to ask what is the context in which Paul is writting, salvation as a competed task. (ex. For by grace are ye saved...or For by grace you have been saved...) Grace through faith as a gift of God brother, it's the only way. You would say faith, am I right? But isn't faith pleasing to God? How can one please God while in the flesh without Christ? They can't.

What is the source of salvation?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Just answer the question. You're dodging.

 

[JM]

Just answer the question. You're dodging.

I answered the question, B, did you read my answer? I've seen the quesiton before, which book did you get it out of?

I hope you don't have a book open in front of you and you typing right out of it...

 

[JM]

To continue on...

Gift of faith in the Bible that you wanted so bad: Thanking God for the faithfulness of Christians because it's not within the ability of the 'slave to sin', Col. 1:3-4, 2 Thess. 1:3. Faith finds it's orgin in God Eph. 6:23-24, Gal. 5:22 (note: faithfulness is translated from the Greek word 'faith.' see 'Potters Freedom' by James White), Phil. 1:29, Heb. 12:1-2. '...faith which comes through Him...Acts 3:16.

On Ephesians 2

I know you intended to 'take me to school' and teach me a little english, so I thought I'd look into ahead of time. When speaking of the word 'that' in verse 2:8, James White has this to say: The Greek term 'touto', the neuter singular demonstrative pronoun. The basic rule of thumb is to look for a sinfular neuter noun in the immediate context as the antecedent of the pronoun. Yet, there are no neuter singular nouns in the first phrase of Eph. 2:8. "Grace" is feminine singular; "have been saved" is a masculine participle; "faith" is feminine singular. So to what does touto refer? The simple answer is: the entirety of the phrase 'for by grace you have been saved by faith.' It is a good Greek grammar to use a neuter pronoun to 'wrap up' a phrase or a series of thoughts into a single whole. Paul's point is that the entirety of the work of salvation does not find it's basis in men but God: true salvation is the gift of God, not the work of man. All of it is free, all of it is divine, not human. Potters Freedom

I know you have a rule about using Greek unless you understand Greek, but I didn't, I quoted.

SP